CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #11

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Seriously. Is this considered "plain language"? Maybe if you have an advanced degree.

No wonder CA is free.
I agree, it's not plain language. Even 'simple wikipedia' is a bit complicated.
Reasonable doubt - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe it's so hard to define because it varies so much with each case and how it plays out, and no two cases are the same.

Also, I believe it's deliberately left up to each jury to decide what is or isn't 'reasonable doubt' in the particular case they sit on.

Our legal system isn't, in the final stage of a trial, a top down system, where police and the prosecution and the judge decide who's guilty. It's evolved over centuries from the ground up, ie a jury of 12 ordinary people, none of whom have a known agenda, get to make the final decision. Just like with elections, it doesn't always work out the way you'd like, but the process is based on principals of individual rights and democratic decision-making, which I don't want to see replaced by something else, like the police on their own deciding who to put away for life
 
Case in point. From someone who has a J.D. degree, that is "plain language".

And to many people in the United States, it is beyond obfuscation. And yet to ask for clarity, a person in the court, raises their eyebrows, "well, that is CLEAR". Uh, okay, go slink in corner, with my obvious obtuseness.

No. That would never happen in a court setting. That's untrue.

Also, I would've understood that paragraph long before I ever went to law school.

And defense attorneys and prosecutors are going to be very good at relating to people from all walks of life and education levels. It's their job to be able to explain things well to laypeople and break things down easily.

But regardless, I really think you don't have to go to college to understand that paragraph. It doesn't even include complex words like obfuscation. Plenty of normal people who don't go to college are smart. And most US citizens regardless of education level have common sense and can read and understand English.
 
I'm just going to put his out there. You walk in on someone strangling anyone else, is your first reaction to also strangle the strangler? Or, to grab a heavy object and hit them on the head? Or, to punch them in the head. Or, to grab them by the hair and pull them out of the way and administer CPR on the person being strangled? There is so much ridiculousness to CW's story I can't even handle it.

If that person was so out of control, that may have been the only option. IMO
 
Regarding the time required for CW to dig the shallow grave, I believe it was said that the grave was very shallow so it shouldn't have taken CW that long. He is also in shape and works a fairly physical job so this was probably done quickly.

Does anyone know if the sheet that was found in the trash was discovered on Monday? It bothers me that CW got to spend the night there alone that night as he could have altered other evidence still. I think LE went on Wednesday night when they removed garbage bags of evidence (presumed to be the girls bedding). It just bothers me that he could have had time to wash those sheets.

CW is not the sharpest tool in the shed... thanks to sociopathy and narcissism. Not saying sociopaths or narcs aren't intelligent... but can certainly cloud the mind.

Doubt he washed anything but himself. He had that sociopathic boost of confidence that blinded him from the reality that LE was onto him. He even left a sheet with SW.
 
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It cannot be usual to have to make excuses for a person's odd/wrong behaviour and actions over and over and over again. One of two little things maybe.
When you actually write down how Many things have to be explained away for CW to be telling the truth it is laughable.
 
If I were a betting woman, I'd put big money on the the outcome that he did (although that would be incredibly disrespectful and I am not disrespectful of the deceased). IMO, he isn't normal. Not only is he not normal, he is probably diagnose-able as NPD, with a little sociopath and psychopathy thrown in. All sociopaths are not psychopaths, but all psychopaths are sociopaths. If you are, truly a forensic psychologist, I would suspect you agree with at least some of that. We know that people who exhibit psychopathy are more prone to abhorrent acts than those that are not. He has admitted to killing his wife, and based on the facts as we now know them, in addition to the charges filed, I am pretty sure he also killed his girls.
Do character witness accounts carry much weight in a trial?
I don't pay too much attention to what people think of someone, especially when it's positive as it's easy and and common to be duped by a sociopath.
 
I'm also in the 'CW murdered the whole family' camp, his excuse for killing SW is pretty pathetic, imo. As others have mentioned, Christian Longo and even the movie Shutter Island springs to mind.

The theory CW planned this in advance after having 6 weeks of bachelorhood is a good one. With a new love and SW being too much woman for him to handle, a sociopathic brain would easily choose annihilating the family over allowing them to live and enjoy life without him. He's the centre of their world in his mind, if there's no 'him', they cease to exist. Many posters have already brought up the Narcissistic Personality Disordered thought patterns/behaviours, Christian Longo was diagnosed with this disorder and tried to use it in his defence but it was rejected.

One theory I have which might have been introduced does relate to CW killing in a rage. One of the daughters may have been hard to manage that night, hyped up after the birthday party like many children can be, he became enraged and hurt her in some way, she may have screamed and he strangled her. Then, he decided his other daughter had to die (as in the Jeffery MacDonald case) and his pregnant wife, SW, when she returned home.

Sticking with the rage attack theory, it could apply to SW, when she arrived home late, they had a spat, CW became so enraged he strangled her, then, cold bloodedly chose to murder his daughters and dispose of them in known territory as many killers do, and hope he could get away with it.

A poster said CW is innocent until proven guilty, but that's not entirely correct as he's confessed to killing SW and their unborn child. In his scenario, SW killed their daughters and he retaliated by killing her. SW spent 6 weeks with her daughters without him, she was ready to move on, he was too, but without the baggage.

CW's story doesn't hold water but like every accused person he deserves to have his claims tested. I doubt evidence will be back him up because this an afterthought, he's trying to lessen his jail term AND be a hero. This childish thinking is typical if you've followed other trials like Jeffrey MacDonald or Henri Van Breda, they're all 'heroes' who expect to be believed and will hold onto their fairy tale till the end of their days.
JMO
IMO, CW definitely coached by someone smarter than he prior to his confession which was really cleverly worded. Maybe a quick phone call to a family attorney?

He says:
-He told Shanann he wanted a separation.
-He walked downstairs then returned to his bedroom to speak with Shanann again.
-He observed via baby monitor Bella sprawled out on her bed and blue and Shanann actively strangling Celeste.
- He went into a rage and ultimately strangled Shanann to death
-He loaded all three bodies into his work truck and took them to an oil work site, buried Shanann and dumped the girls inside the oil tanks.

Sounds like murder in the second-degree or voluntary manslaughter (heat of passion murder), no? No premeditation or prior deliberation.
 
I'm just going to put his out there. You walk in on someone strangling anyone else, is your first reaction to also strangle the strangler? Or, to grab a heavy object and hit them on the head? Or, to punch them in the head. Or, to grab them by the hair and pull them out of the way and administer CPR on the person being strangled? There is so much ridiculousness to CW's story I can't even handle it.

If that person was so out of control, that may have been the only option. IMO
 
Right, and the prosecution will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he DID kill his daughters and that him killing SW was premeditated.
This is where there’s fear of a hung jury - that one person who relies to heavily on their own thoughts and feelings and not facts. Idek. There’s too much stacked against him though, imo. Justice will prevail. That’s my *feeling* on it.

If he strangled them all, at least two must be premeditated. Because there would be enough time after one killing to reflect.

Regardless, all they have to prove is that he killed the girls, not that their deaths were premeditated, in order to find him guilty of first degree murder. That's due to the two charges of murder of a minor 12 and under (I think was the age) by someone in a position of trust.

That's all we need for LWOP or the death penalty.

I believe the use of common sense, including an analysis of human behavior and emotion in various situations, shows no reasonable doubt that CW killed his daughters.
 
You know I really think the big issue there was they just wanted to go home. Seven weeks sequestered like prisoners. A finding of guilt would have led to a sentencing phase and who knows how many more weeks. So they didn't find her guilty of anything that would require a sentencing phase. Not even child neglect.

I remember one juror talking about how she just stood in the window resentfully looking down at the hotel pool they could not use. (Maybe because it would bring them into contact with other people).

They were treated like they were being punished. The only relief from the absolute monotony they had was half days on Saturdays when their families could come and spend time with them at a secure location.

Wth? 7 weeks of that.

Since that case judges are far less likely to sequester juries and when they do it is not with as onerous circumstances. For example, they can go home on the weekends.

And we have to also remember that in the thousands of cases we have watched on here since the OJ trial, how many murderers have been found not guilty when it seems clear they were?

Out of thousands of cases, we keep repeating two.

Nevertheless, I am worried for this case. I'm worried that the path to justice may be super horrific -as in maybe a hung jury at first. Maybe two.

And frankly, after thinking and talking with my family about the case, I think there are two big reasons for that possibility.

1. The more attractive a person is the harder it is to find them guilty. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...a2f47009-d1af-5ddc-9231-f9a33c21e1a3.amp.html

As much as many of us here find the man repellent, he is conventionally attractive and has a look that many straight women would like.

Coupled with videos and photos showing the gleaming facade he maintained of a loving father, a facade so good people have been shocked at what happened, and who he turned out to be, that may make certain jurors more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt as to the more serious charges.

2. There is a ton of hateful criticism of SW. I have seen it in MSM articles posts. I have seen hints of it here.

She was involved in a type of business that many abhor.

She was an attractive woman who seemed to have it all and even in death there are those who feel less than her and jealous.

She was a type- A, overachiever which again, bothers people who feel insecure. They may have an inherent dislike for her.

She posted incessantly positive and cheerful social media posts about her kids, her husband and her life. There have been studies as to how social media causes depression as people tend to post only the good stuff and others feel inadequate in the face of that and don't measure up. As a result, there has emerged a deep resentment of people who portray a "perfect" life on social media by people who know their's aren't. They feel anger toward those for making them feel bad about their lives and circumstances.

I have seen a lot of that in comments when it comes to SW. "She needed to work on her marriage and get off social media!"

"She spent too much time making sure everyone saw how great her life was instead of caring for her family!"

That kind of stuff.

In fact, one of her very own friends was commenting to the media that he "had to block her" because he was "jealous" of her life! What? You block someone for doing something wrong. Not for portraying a life that you covet. Just get off social media and put things in perspective - few post the struggles they deal with. They don't want to make anyone feel down.

In any event there seems to be simmering anger out there against people who portray a wonderful life.

I worry that the defense could capitalize on those two things in this case. All we need is one person on the jury with feelings of inadequacy and the inability to use basic logic.

This is not a complex case. But I fear that we are in for a horror show. And I don't think Shanann's poor family are going to be able to withstand it.


Thank goodness you are here at Webslueths! Can't speak for everyone, but, I/we are so grateful.
You have a gift of making 'legal speak' a language we can all understand.
You are patient with question after question - thoroughly answering each one. Thank you ♡

With this post you were able to put my gut wrenching fears into words. It would have 'sounded' like ramblings if it came from me. ♡

I just have a visceral, nightmarish feeling about this case. EVERYTHING about this case. Not only that a husband, a father .... a fellow human being could do this to his own family ... but, also, there's a slight possibility he might get away with it. Even just the thoughts of that happening fills me with ABSOLUTE DREAD. (not being hyperbolic)

Many posters might give the advice of just avoiding the threads about Shanann, if it affects me in such a way. I've even mentioned it in posts of my own.

Lurked for years before joining. Some cases just become encased in your heart & soul. This one has latched on to something so primal inside of me :(

Sorry, for the ramble :) Really just wanted to Thank you. You are such a treasure to Webslueths. ♡
 
I'm just going to put his out there. You walk in on someone strangling anyone else, is your first reaction to also strangle the strangler? Or, to grab a heavy object and hit them on the head? Or, to punch them in the head. Or, to grab them by the hair and pull them out of the way and administer CPR on the person being strangled? There is so much ridiculousness to CW's story I can't even handle it.

And any rational person with common sense won't be able to handle it either. imo.
 
I agree, it's not plain language. Even 'simple wikipedia' is a bit complicated.
Reasonable doubt - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe it's so hard to define because it varies so much with each case and how it plays out, and no two cases are the same.

Also, I believe it's deliberately left up to each jury to decide what is or isn't 'reasonable doubt' in the particular case they sit on.

Our legal system isn't, in the final stage of a trial, a top down system, where police and the prosecution and the judge decide who's guilty. It's evolved over centuries from the ground up, ie a jury of 12 ordinary people, none of whom have a known agenda, get to make the final decision. Just like with elections, it doesn't always work out the way you'd like, but the process is based on principals of individual rights and democratic decision-making, which I don't want to see replaced by something else, like the police on their own deciding who to put away for life
Yup, it's by design. We have to have faith in the system!

Though, it's hard when you read websleuths a lot and see cases like CA's.
 
Its Sunday and its common Websleuths knowledge that most time outs happen on Sundays. Then new information surfaces on Monday. But you still cant post again until that Friday. :)

So people can post whatever they feel. But I will scroll and roll what I see fit to avoid a forced Websleuths vacation today.

You're welcome. :)
drinking-lemonade-cocktail-glasses-with-straw-and-ice-shaking-man-and-woman-friend-hands-cheers-at-an-event-with-blurred-red-hair-people-and-colored-wall-background_1268-1786.jpg
 
I can’t imagine what these days must be like behind bars. Have everything one day and nothing the next.
 
Like some, I suspect Watts killed the girls before his wife returned. Unlike most, however, I don't think he planned to kill them. I suspect he lost his temper with one daughter and fatally injured her, and when the second daughter was incosolable he killed her in a panic.
In contrast, I think he planned to kill Shannan the moment she walked through the door (and she quite possibly never knew her girls were dead as a result) because he knows she wouldn't have forgiven him or believed any story he could possibly come up with to explain why her girls were dead/not there.

I'm thinking along the same line. I wonder if it was because a child was acting out & wanting dessert, but needed to finish her dinner first. Since he brings that up during one of the interviews. Maybe he lashed out too roughly & child died. He knew the other child would tell Shannan what he had done.
 
Regarding the bedding...(I’ve tried to find the post I wanted to quote and I can’t...gah!)

IMO the bedding on the floor, trash and dump site can all be related. Bedding on the floor doesn’t mention if it was the “entire” set. For example, on my bed I have a mattress protector, a fitted sheet, a top sheet, a light blanket, a comforter, 2 pillow cases and 2 shams. It wasn’t specified what was on the floor. With my own bedding as an example the comforter, blanket, and mattress protector alone make a pretty hefty pile of “bedding” on the floor.
 
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