Season 2 Episode 1

Finding them in a person's fire pit is a clue.

Did they find any bones in the fire pit? As far as I can remember, the bones were found in a cardboard box on the medical examiner's desk.


I thought the demonstration with the mannequin was very helpful. It just doesn't seem likely that the blood spatter on the cargo door came from a body being placed in the RAV4.

Comparing that to how easily the pattern could be recreated with the well-known and well understood phenomenon of cast off from a blunt weapon.

It would be interesting to see if anyone on the prosecution team believed in their theory enough to demonstrate its plausibility.

I agree. I am just guessing here, but the experiments shown in MaM2 were for in the documentary mostly to help make sense of how about blood splatters and how various movements cause different types of blood patterns.
I don't think they were meant to be taken as scientific tests. One thing the demonstration does show pretty convincingly, is that it is hard to spray blood onto the door just by moving the body unless you're trying to.

The fact that the real ones are more or less perfect dots is VERY interesting.
Next time you wash your hands, try flinging water from your hands onto your bathroom mirror and try to make perfect dots, then try to figure out how moving a body would produce a similar pattern.
 
Did they find any bones in the fire pit? As far as I can remember, the bones were found in a cardboard box on the medical examiner's desk.




I agree. I am just guessing here, but the experiments shown in MaM2 were for in the documentary mostly to help make sense of how about blood splatters and how various movements cause different types of blood patterns.
I don't think they were meant to be taken as scientific tests. One thing the demonstration does show pretty convincingly, is that it is hard to spray blood onto the door just by moving the body unless you're trying to.

The fact that the real ones are more or less perfect dots is VERY interesting.
Next time you wash your hands, try flinging water from your hands onto your bathroom mirror and try to make perfect dots, then try to figure out how moving a body would produce a similar pattern.
Would you go to sell or buy a car from him. If not you would you let a sister or female cousin go alone to his place of business.
I'm sorry they brought the bones back to lab - clearly insane.
 
Would you go to sell or buy a car from him. If not you would you let a sister or female cousin go alone to his place of business.
No. He is in prison. He cannot sell or buy cars.
If he is the dangerous one, and he is in prison, it should be perfectly safe for sisters or female cousins to go there. The fact that you imply it is unsafe, means you think the killer is still out there and has regular access to the property. Who do you think did it?

<modsnipped quote and unnecessary personalized response>

Edited to fix broken QUOTE tags
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Did they find any bones in the fire pit? As far as I can remember, the bones were found in a cardboard box on the medical examiner's desk.

Yes, and only about 20% of the bones from a human body were collected. The question is what happened to the rest? In MaM2 (I think it was episode 10) the cremation expert suggested that in cases where perpetrators attempt to burn up a body they are surprised and frustrated that it's not as easy as all that and end up dumping the torso elsewhere.

I agree. I am just guessing here, but the experiments shown in MaM2 were for in the documentary mostly to help make sense of how about blood splatters and how various movements cause different types of blood patterns.
I don't think they were meant to be taken as scientific tests. One thing the demonstration does show pretty convincingly, is that it is hard to spray blood onto the door just by moving the body unless you're trying to.

The fact that the real ones are more or less perfect dots is VERY interesting.
Next time you wash your hands, try flinging water from your hands onto your bathroom mirror and try to make perfect dots, then try to figure out how moving a body would produce a similar pattern.

BBM

That is exactly what the demonstration did for me - it confirmed my intuition that the prosecution theory of how that spatter pattern was created would not work. Overcoming the inertia of something as big as a human body to fling droplets horizontally would be very difficult.

It would have been easy enough for the prosecution to add something credible in their story to explain this. I wonder why they didn't.

All MOO
 
Nothing I said translates to "bringing the bones back to the lab was clearly insane." Don't know where this came from.
What I meant was, how does finding bones in a medical examiner's office someone how equal a conspiracy?
 
What I meant was, how does finding bones in a medical examiner's office someone how equal a conspiracy?

I’m not the OP of that post but I’m pretty sure they mean the fact that there is no proof the bones were actually found in the “burn pit.” They didn’t document or take any photos of how the bones were found or collected. They simply dropped a box on the ME’s desk and said they were found at Avery’s.
 
The collection of the cremains was not documented in any professional manner, so questions about the cremains are going to be unanswerable. The coroner was prevented from recovering this evidence under threat of arrest.
 
I’m not the OP of that post but I’m pretty sure they mean the fact that there is no proof the bones were actually found in the “burn pit.” They didn’t document or take any photos of how the bones were found or collected. They simply dropped a box on the ME’s desk and said they were found at Avery’s.
So it's the police now maybe a family member?
 
I didn't see anything about the bones in S2E1. Sorry - I binge-watched and am now re-watching this weekend. The big thing KZ was discussing was about the blood in the car, I took on the first watch as not so great of a test(any of them). But on second watch I thought they had more to it than I thought. I wish she would have tested light vs heavy blood on all the tests - she was thinking more of the flow but I was thinking more of the consistency coming out of someone. I know that an individual's dehydration adds to how thin or thick ones blood would bleed when getting lab testing so I feel it's the same when actively bleeding. Also, I wonder about standing next to the Rav's back door and "hefting up" a dead body to get a better grip. Would that have cast off anything, standing right there beside it? Fine in the SA defense to prove he didn't sling her that way, but the blood got there somehow... how did it happen with who killed her? Not KZ's aim, but mine. How did it get there?

I was so much thinking about Teresa's family. If it was "one of my people" who was murdered, I think I would be watching everything - not being able to help myself and/or forcing myself to. I would have to know it all. So when I was looking at the face of the mannequin and the hair... RIP Teresa. They are just trying to help find the truth - I so believe she would want that.
 
Not sure how I would respond as a member of TH's family. I can't say there's any one way someone in that position 'should' respond. Sometimes I think I would want to consider the case 'closed' as a way to get past the whole thing. On the other hand I can sometimes feel like if there is something dubious in the answer I am offered I'd want to know more.
 
I wish she would have tested light vs heavy blood on all the tests - she was thinking more of the flow but I was thinking more of the consistency coming out of someone. I know that an individual's dehydration adds to how thin or thick ones blood would bleed when getting lab testing so I feel it's the same when actively bleeding. Also, I wonder about standing next to the Rav's back door and "hefting up" a dead body to get a better grip. Would that have cast off anything, standing right there beside it? Fine in the SA defense to prove he didn't sling her that way, but the blood got there somehow...
My guess is they did WAYYYYYY more experimenting than was shown. Part of me feels like the documentary wanted to give viewers a taste of the experiments but didn't really want to linger on it and just wanted to move forward.
how did it happen with who killed her? Not KZ's aim, but mine. How did it get there?

The blood spatter expert said the droplets were more consistent with blood cast off from an item while swinging it. They had a collection of 4-5 hammers Dr. Reich said would be a good match. I think in the past Zellner (or someone) suggested a tire iron. Maybe they wounded her in some way, were trying to hoist her in the back of her RAV4, opened the door, realized she was still alive, and then finished her off making the blood spray.
I was so much thinking about Teresa's family. If it was "one of my people" who was murdered, I think I would be watching everything - not being able to help myself and/or forcing myself to. I would have to know it all. So when I was looking at the face of the mannequin and the hair... RIP Teresa. They are just trying to help find the truth - I so believe she would want that.
I think they might just be believing whatever the police say. You see people on here, who should know better, insisting the police can't be doing something wrong. I guess her family could be of the same mindset. People who believe MaM is nothing but bias and a waste of time....but with an added layer of "they're helping someone who murdered my sister/daughter/etc..." It is a tough spot they are in. If you can't trust the police in an investigation...what are you left with? Either your loved one was killed by a rapist or two, or they were killed by a rapist or two and the police are indirectly helping those killers get away with it. One of those scenarios is easier to believe.

Also, with the "watch everything" situation, many do not do that. It is very hard and they'd probably feel attacked by MaM the whole time. Also, many defendants don't really know all that much about the crime they are accused of. The West Memphis 3 are an example of this. Misskelly never really ever figured out what was supposed to have happened and Damien said he isn't really all that interested in the case itself, just getting free and living his life.
 
Saul (tysm)
Your first comment about what wasn't shown. I wonder about that. The things we did learn...I do imagine there was a lot left out because after all, we all need to realize this is a documentary. They want to sell what they made and do well - either financially or credentials or both. Kudos for them starting out some armchair detectives that never thought of it before. I think we all should be in this day and age. MSM is not our friend and we now have the means to figure things out for ourselves instead of just being fed (sheeple). This is the reason I think WebSleuths has a very pertinent place in the world.

I am beginning to wonder about what you said about a tire iron or ?. If it isn't what they want us to believe than does it have to be anything near that? So many other scenarios to consider.

Thank you... for the thought that went into what TH's family/friends are or were thinking and reacting to. I cannot imagine what I would do .... and probably do the wrong thing and the world would have this big think about me. I bet they are having just as much pressures as SA & BD are with different entities and the world at large. I, myself would always tend to believe whatever the authorities (police,courts) would say to me. I was brought up that way - you just kinda fall into that unless you find a safe place in your life where other things are explored (like here). So I do agree with you that TH's family have done the best they can. Also a thanks that you understood the WM3 reference. As in this crime, I so hope they will bring the families the justice they deserve (the truth of what happened) because I think that is what brings a lot of closure or at least being able to live, is that they know.
 
No. He is in prison. He cannot sell or buy cars.
If he is the dangerous one, and he is in prison, it should be perfectly safe for sisters or female cousins to go there. The fact that you imply it is unsafe, means you think the killer is still out there and has regular access to the property. Who do you think did it?

<modsnipped quote and unnecessary personalized response>

Edited to fix broken QUOTE tags
I think he is guilty. Is the criminal justice system flawed - yes. Steven Avery might have been a victim of it at one time but that doesn't mean he gets a pass.
 
The fact is we may never know all the facts, and many crimes go unsolved.

The state's job is to solve the crime and prove beyond a reasonable doubt their suspect is the perpetrator.

Law enforcement, the prosecution, and the courts did their best to remove all doubts by suppressing evidence from being presented to the jury which we are now being exposed to.
 

I think it's possible that if someone other than SA killed TH, it was them, with a little help from LE. I think that regardless, LE did some shady things to get the result they wanted. I think that there are so many factors in play that combined to get a guilty verdict, whether he did it or not.

I will try to expand on a few things...

The key being found the way it was is suspicious. Could someone in LE have put it there? sure seems like it. Doesn't mean that same LE officer killed TH.

The bones in the fire pit were not investigated properly. There is nothing that anyone can say to me that would make me believe the way they collected those remains was legit and proper. There are literally ZERO pictures of the bones in the firepit. Add to that, the barrel's. Those barrel's were also handled improperly... taken to the crime lab, brought back, taken back to the crime lab, and voilaaaaa we have human bones! If you are interested, I actually tried to follow the barrel's, there is a thread here . Now I'm reading that there were yet more human bones in the Manitowoc County quarry?

Now let's look at Ryan... IMO the only way he could be responsible for TH's murder is if she returned home, and we don't know that she did. But lets look at his suspicious behaviour, and his suspicious calls on the Friday evening. I am inclined to think that he, maybe with a friend or family member, may have gone to the Salvage yard on the Friday night and searched the yard for the RAV4. That would have been illegal, and if it was reported that night, the RAV4 would never have been allowed to be used as evidence. It is just way to coincidental that the next morning, Pam was sent to the Salvage yard with a camera and the Sheriff's phone number. I can't say I would blame them if they did go searching the yard without permission, they were looking for a friend/loved one, but it does make them come off as shady and like they are hiding something, and if that is what happened, if they ever come clean, I think that could be legal grounds for a retrial, but I'm not a lawyer and I'm not sure.

As for "the real killer" planting evidence... if that person was also living or had access to the Salvage Yard, that person also had 3 days before LE was contacted, 5 days before they took over the Salvage yard to plant things... the RAV, the license plate, the bones. IF Bobby was there when SA reopened that gash on the Thursday night, he also would have had access to the trailer, knowledge of where the RAV was at the time, and also would know that SA was going to Menards and he had a window of time to get that blood and do whatever with it. I don't believe for a minute that he used a pipette, but if a rag or cloth could have been used (which KZ indicates in one of her answers the other day on twitter), then yes, I do think it's possible. I think KZ is cornered with the blood. From the documentary (and from previous motions), the expert didn't think there was enough of a sample and it would be to degraded to test now. SA has been saying from early on that someone cleaned his sink... he has also always maintained that he saw lights near his trailer on the Thursday, and Chuck saw some on the Friday night as well.

My opinion's are subject to change! LOL I haven't finished watching MaM2, but I have read all of the motions that have been filed up to this point, and I don't expect to see anything that would change my mind right now.

With all of that said... I don't believe everything KZ has put in her motions or has said. I am sceptical about people coming forward years later.

ETA: oh and I don't believe for a minute that Brendan had anything to do with it, or even helped anyone. I think LE needed more and they used Brendan to get it. And don't get me started on Kratz, he's a piece of poo.
 
I think it's possible that if someone other than SA killed TH, it was them, with a little help from LE. I think that regardless, LE did some shady things to get the result they wanted. I think that there are so many factors in play that combined to get a guilty verdict, whether he did it or not.

I will try to expand on a few things...

The key being found the way it was is suspicious. Could someone in LE have put it there? sure seems like it. Doesn't mean that same LE officer killed TH.

The bones in the fire pit were not investigated properly. There is nothing that anyone can say to me that would make me believe the way they collected those remains was legit and proper. There are literally ZERO pictures of the bones in the firepit. Add to that, the barrel's. Those barrel's were also handled improperly... taken to the crime lab, brought back, taken back to the crime lab, and voilaaaaa we have human bones! If you are interested, I actually tried to follow the barrel's, there is a thread here . Now I'm reading that there were yet more human bones in the Manitowoc County quarry?

Now let's look at Ryan... IMO the only way he could be responsible for TH's murder is if she returned home, and we don't know that she did. But lets look at his suspicious behaviour, and his suspicious calls on the Friday evening. I am inclined to think that he, maybe with a friend or family member, may have gone to the Salvage yard on the Friday night and searched the yard for the RAV4. That would have been illegal, and if it was reported that night, the RAV4 would never have been allowed to be used as evidence. It is just way to coincidental that the next morning, Pam was sent to the Salvage yard with a camera and the Sheriff's phone number. I can't say I would blame them if they did go searching the yard without permission, they were looking for a friend/loved one, but it does make them come off as shady and like they are hiding something, and if that is what happened, if they ever come clean, I think that could be legal grounds for a retrial, but I'm not a lawyer and I'm not sure.

As for "the real killer" planting evidence... if that person was also living or had access to the Salvage Yard, that person also had 3 days before LE was contacted, 5 days before they took over the Salvage yard to plant things... the RAV, the license plate, the bones. IF Bobby was there when SA reopened that gash on the Thursday night, he also would have had access to the trailer, knowledge of where the RAV was at the time, and also would know that SA was going to Menards and he had a window of time to get that blood and do whatever with it. I don't believe for a minute that he used a pipette, but if a rag or cloth could have been used (which KZ indicates in one of her answers the other day on twitter), then yes, I do think it's possible. I think KZ is cornered with the blood. From the documentary (and from previous motions), the expert didn't think there was enough of a sample and it would be to degraded to test now. SA has been saying from early on that someone cleaned his sink... he has also always maintained that he saw lights near his trailer on the Thursday, and Chuck saw some on the Friday night as well.

My opinion's are subject to change! LOL I haven't finished watching MaM2, but I have read all of the motions that have been filed up to this point, and I don't expect to see anything that would change my mind right now.

With all of that said... I don't believe everything KZ has put in her motions or has said. I am sceptical about people coming forward years later.

ETA: oh and I don't believe for a minute that Brendan had anything to do with it, or even helped anyone. I think LE needed more and they used Brendan to get it. And don't get me started on Kratz, he's a piece of poo.

Thanks Missy this is also where I am right now. I have finished watching MAM 2 and do believe that the Bobby D theory is the most likely scenario if Steven is not guilty, as you say likely with some help from Ryan and LE. I think that they believed/wanted Steven to be the killer and so ensured there was evidence to support that - as did Bobby D. They had time and motive and access.

ETA I don't think LE worked with Bobby, just think they were working towards the same goal.
 
Two interested parties pursuing the same goal. Could look like a complex conspiracy when it's just a coincidence like everyone wants to believe.
 

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