CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #8

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gitana1 said:
I see. So the evidence was already submitted or available to the defense in raw form but is being packaged differently and allowed to be presented a certain way to the jury?
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As I understand it, the witness presented analysis of the accused's bank accounts, in table form.

Of particular interest was withdrawals made at casino ATMs

During a break, the witness realised the accused had made additional withdrawals at casino ATMs and was allowed to present this analysis

It seems a strange thing for the defence to moan about seeing as the defendant himself has it within his personal knowledge, how much he withdrew from casino ATMs, and the defence always had access to the source account records.
 
gitana1 said:
I see. So the evidence was already submitted or available to the defense in raw form but is being packaged differently and allowed to be presented a certain way to the jury?
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Yes, that might be the best way to explain it lol Again... the judge is being quite fair about it (I think?) Allowing extra time before doing cross, but they didn't like that the next witness went for continuity and because it was the same info (cell pings)

I'm not sure if I can even explain ALL the things that I think collectively may cause some issues... there is more!! LOL Or at least IMO there is.
 
mrjitty said:
As I understand it, the witness presented analysis of the accused's bank accounts, in table form.

Of particular interest was withdrawals made at casino ATMs

During a break, the witness realised the accused had made additional withdrawals at casino ATMs and was allowed to present this analysis

It seems a strange thing for the defence to moan about seeing as the defendant himself has it within his personal knowledge, how much he withdrew from casino ATMs, and the defence always had access to the source account records.
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Actually, this isn't what I was talking about at all or not completely LOL
 
mrjitty said:
As I understand it, the witness presented analysis of the accused's bank accounts, in table form.

Of particular interest was withdrawals made at casino ATMs

During a break, the witness realised the accused had made additional withdrawals at casino ATMs and was allowed to present this analysis

It seems a strange thing for the defence to moan about seeing as the defendant himself has it within his personal knowledge, how much he withdrew from casino ATMs, and the defence always had access to the source account records.
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I think that's absolutely fine. The evidence was there. The witness just discovered it. I'm not worried about that.

As to not having expert reports until after trial starts that is problematic but I haven't seen that as grounds for a successful appeal. Appeals are super hard.

CA law states that the state has to submit a list of witnesses before trial but doesn't have to disclose what they're going to say before they testify.

Also, evidence discovered after the 30 day discovery cut off is admissible as long as it is given to the defense as soon as they get it.
FindLaw's California Court of Appeal case and opinions.

It doesn't sound like there were any errors in allowing the witness to supplement his testimony after the break, as long as the defense is given an opportunity to cross examine.
 
@gitana1 Thanks for popping in, I have been following the Berreth case and know that you are posting quite often :) I hope I made it clear what my concern's are. Other than just thinking that the prosecution has had 4 years to get this stuff done already, I am concerned about what implications these can have on appeals. I have to leave for a bit and wanted to make sure you saw my thanks!!!!
 
gitana1 said:
I think that's absolutely fine. The evidence was there. The witness just discovered it. I'm not worried about that.

As to not having expert reports until after trial starts that is problematic but I haven't seen that as grounds for a successful appeal. Appeals are super hard.

CA law states that the state has to submit a list of witnesses before trial but doesn't have to disclose what they're going to say before they testify.

Also, evidence discovered after the 30 day discovery cut off is admissible as long as it is given to the defense as soon as they get it.
FindLaw's California Court of Appeal case and opinions.

It doesn't sound like there were any errors in allowing the witness to supplement his testimony after the break, as long as the defense is given an opportunity to cross examine.
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This 30 day discovery thing has been brought up quite a bit so far! LOL

Thanks again!
 
mrjitty said:
Ok sorry

There were so many arguments about the last few witnesses it's hard to keep track!
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It was part of it though... and you are right, there were a few different things that IMO made the prosecution look sloppy and unprepared. I wish we were going to be able to see Smith's cross exam. I know it's just my opinion and it's probably not going to be well liked cuz most think that Chase is guilty beyond anything that could be presented... but when the lead investigator needs to get up there and show a "report" and say he used Google maps to track cell pings and these are the one's that I found near a casino... it's laughable. He was nothing more than a glorified Websleuther IMO From what I saw of those exhibits, it may well hurt the prosecution more than it helped.
 
Force Ten said:
OOOOH GOOD POINT!!

I'm going to do some searching here. I want to get to the root of this. I think there is a big weed.
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Exactly! Everything we have heard about his heart issues has been from the DT. I just have a sense he was making excuses for his lapses in appearing before the probation people. Speculating but wouldn't be surprised? He did things his way.
 
missy1974 said:
It was part of it though... and you are right, there were a few different things that IMO made the prosecution look sloppy and unprepared. I wish we were going to be able to see Smith's cross exam. I know it's just my opinion and it's probably not going to be well liked cuz most think that Chase is guilty beyond anything that could be presented... but when the lead investigator needs to get up there and show a "report" and say he used Google maps to track cell pings and these are the one's that I found near a casino... it's laughable. He was nothing more than a glorified Websleuther IMO From what I saw of those exhibits, it may well hurt the prosecution more than it helped.
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In his defense (no pun intended :)), he is a detective, not a cell phone expert. If he plotted the coordinates into Google Maps, what's the issue there? What should he have used to get this information? You say you want evidence, but then when he presents it you don't like the steps he used to obtain it, no matter what the accuracy of said information.
 
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missy1974 said:
It's not the first time. I have been sitting here watching, commenting or making a note of it, and then later when it's on youtube, it's been cut. It's just the one time I wanted to go back and listen more carefully and couldn't.
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I get what you are saying. Very frustrating. The live streaming B Team has let us down. Hoping the A Team is poised to take over. Fingers crossed.
 
missy1974 said:
I think the point is being missed here... something is stated, others ask for proof, when "proof" can't be given, then it must not be true, BUT believing the truth in something or not only depends on how guilty said person thinks Chase is or isn't. Not pointing fingers. I'm looking at both sides of this, and I see a double standard. This is JMO reading the posts. And I'm not saying one is any better than the other.

It should also be stated that BOTH the 30K debt and the heart problems/medical bills have NOT been mentioned at all in the trial. Only here. There is a ton of information or rumours that have been out there for years, some of them may turn out to be true, others not so much.

Unfortunately, the SW's are not always full of correct information. It may be something that the believe at the time, it might be things that they know from experience, and then they are full of information from other's, like the 30k debt from Dan.

If after all these years following cases and reading search warrants, I can see that sometimes the truth is stretched to get what they want. In most cases, I don't blame LE for using what they can and do to get the Search Warrants, look what happened in 2010... Dugal couldn't get search warrants, maybe if he had used some of these comments, he would have gotten them past a judge and this case would have been closed years ago. JMO

Viagra... I thought that as well when I first heard it, that it says not to take if you have a heart condition, but without knowing exactly what the condition is, or what meds he would be on, it's hard to say whether he could or couldn't take it ... or if he followed instructions LOL My Dad's a diabetic... he hasn't completely given up sugar.. some people just don't follow doctor's orders. Could be that he had to go to Mexico because his own doc wouldn't prescribe it. If I'm not mistaken, CHF can cause impotence, whether it's the disease or the medications to treat the disease. JMO
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missy1974 said:
It was part of it though... and you are right, there were a few different things that IMO made the prosecution look sloppy and unprepared. I wish we were going to be able to see Smith's cross exam. I know it's just my opinion and it's probably not going to be well liked cuz most think that Chase is guilty beyond anything that could be presented... but when the lead investigator needs to get up there and show a "report" and say he used Google maps to track cell pings and these are the one's that I found near a casino... it's laughable. He was nothing more than a glorified Websleuther IMO From what I saw of those exhibits, it may well hurt the prosecution more than it helped.
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Oh Missy! I do think he did it but haven't seen total proof. Just pieces of the puzzle. One little piece at a time. Always grateful for your posts.
 
Plo_Koon said:
In his defense (no pun intended :)), he is a detective, not a cell phone expert. If he plotted the coordinates into Google Maps, what's the issue there? What should he have used to get this information? You say you want evidence, but then when he presents it you don't like the steps he used to obtain it, no matter what the accuracy of said information.
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I agree. I'm sure many investigators will utilize google maps and google earth as a tool to aid them. I don't see this as ametuerish in any way.
 
I've also been reading thru the Kelsey Berreth posts and something someone said stood out to me. It might be off base, but they were wondering if the nurse girlfriend of PF, may have planted some DNA (that she could've obtained from a patient) at Kelsey's condo, to throw LE off the trail. I've been thinking about the odd mix of DNA in the Mcstay's graves and wondering if CM could've done the same--not from any patient of course, but possibly from a public restroom sink or some such thing?
 
QueenBofOB said:
I've also been reading thru the Kelsey Berreth posts and something someone said stood out to me. It might be off base, but they were wondering if the nurse girlfriend of PF, may have planted some DNA (that she could've obtained from a patient) at Kelsey's condo, to throw LE off the trail. I've been thinking about the odd mix of DNA in the Mcstay's graves and wondering if CM could've done the same--not from any patient of course, but possibly from a public restroom sink or some such thing?
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The state's DNA expert was certain that there wouldn't be any touch/trace DNA that survived 3-4 years in the graves, especially considering the victims' own DNA which would have been in the largest quantities wasn't even identifiable.
 
missy1974 said:
I think the point is being missed here... something is stated, others ask for proof, when "proof" can't be given, then it must not be true, BUT believing the truth in something or not only depends on how guilty said person thinks Chase is or isn't. Not pointing fingers. I'm looking at both sides of this, and I see a double standard. This is JMO reading the posts. And I'm not saying one is any better than the other.

It should also be stated that BOTH the 30K debt and the heart problems/medical bills have NOT been mentioned at all in the trial. Only here. There is a ton of information or rumours that have been out there for years, some of them may turn out to be true, others not so much.

Unfortunately, the SW's are not always full of correct information. It may be something that the believe at the time, it might be things that they know from experience, and then they are full of information from other's, like the 30k debt from Dan.

If after all these years following cases and reading search warrants, I can see that sometimes the truth is stretched to get what they want. In most cases, I don't blame LE for using what they can and do to get the Search Warrants, look what happened in 2010... Dugal couldn't get search warrants, maybe if he had used some of these comments, he would have gotten them past a judge and this case would have been closed years ago. JMO

Viagra... I thought that as well when I first heard it, that it says not to take if you have a heart condition, but without knowing exactly what the condition is, or what meds he would be on, it's hard to say whether he could or couldn't take it ... or if he followed instructions LOL My Dad's a diabetic... he hasn't completely given up sugar.. some people just don't follow doctor's orders. Could be that he had to go to Mexico because his own doc wouldn't prescribe it. If I'm not mistaken, CHF can cause impotence, whether it's the disease or the medications to treat the disease. JMO
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Thank you, Missy!

I'm still trying to understand what you mean about 'double standards' though. I've seen posts wanting to know if there is any proof Joey loaned CM thousands to pay off some of his gambling debts.

Then I have seen posts where others are wanting to see proof or documentation about the alleged 100K medical bill's CM was to have occured. That seems pretty straight down the middle on both issues. Imo.

At least we know about the 30K loans to CM because it's in an official SW document.

So you base these SWs, and their validity, on other cases, instead of this one?

There is no possible way any prosecutor can address everyone's testimonies in their OS that are going to come in .....taking many many months to do so, It's impossible to cover everything, and every one.

There would be no need to bring the gambling debts out in OS.

The state has never opined CM murdered them all due to him already owing Joey thousands of dollars he had loaned CM for past gambling debts.

Since it was in the SW affidavit, and was DKs statement to LE, if its untrue, then the DT will jump with both feet, when that detective takes the stand.

The DT will want to make it known to the jury, Joey did NOT loan CM any money to pay off any gambling debts, and DK told LE a bald face lie.

That is... the DT will....but only IF its untrue.

Imo
 
i've been away from the forum for so long and i've been trying to keep up with this on youtube, got as far as Michael being on the stand without being on camera. can someone give me a quick recap of whats transpired since then?

i don't have the energy to stay up all night watching anymore, miss arias took it out of me for many years.
 
Plo_Koon said:
In his defense (no pun intended :)), he is a detective, not a cell phone expert. If he plotted the coordinates into Google Maps, what's the issue there? What should he have used to get this information? You say you want evidence, but then when he presents it you don't like the steps he used to obtain it, no matter what the accuracy of said information.
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BBM - this is my point LOL

he didn't "plot" them. He used a portion of the cell phone tower information from the cell records, put it into google maps and said "this is where it is". I am not sure that this standard can even be used at WS's as reliable info LOL Who needs an FBI guy like Boles, when you have Smith? :D
 
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