CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #47 *ARREST*

[steeltowngirl]

My impression is that the motion concerning destructive testing is a big debate over very minute topics, that cannot be resolved until the defense's expert can confer at length with the CBI expert(s) in Pueblo. At issue are:
(1) Pre-defining PF's basic right to preservation (in the event that he is convicted) under Colorado statute 18-1-1103(2). Duty to preserve DNA evidence.
(2) Agreeing on the mode of testing. Explanation:
There are two basic kinds of DNA testing used by LE. The primary one is a collection of 26 factors of "junk DNA" that is useful for individual identification, but does not affect the development of the individual. This is the common format for CODIS identification. KB may have had existing CODIS testing, from her pilot physicals, etc. The second is a full range DNA scan, with emphasis on mitochodrial DNA factors. This is the scan most commonly used by LE to identify dead persons. The problem with this testing is that KB shared the exact same mitochondrial DNA as CB, CB2 and KB's child, all of whom spent time in the crime scene and might be expected to have left some minute DNA samples. If no body is discovered, LE may want to have some samples tested one way and others tested the other. I think the problem of a defense representative being present is something that only the experts can decide for themselves. To avoid containation during testing, only one person is allowed in the "clean room" laboratory during the entire testing period, which can take place over several days. A defense expert can fully participate in the process without being in the clean room itself, but the exact procedure needs to be worked out by them, in advance, then submitted to the judge for his approval. Then, and only then, will the motion be ruled on. IMO
2016 Colorado Revised Statutes :: Title 18 - :: Criminal Code :: Article 1 - Provisions Applicable to Offenses Generally :: Part 11 - :: Preservation of DNA Evidence :: § 18-1-1103. Duty to preserve DNA evidence

I’m curious, what are some examples of consumptive evidence? Blood, sperm, hair? Apologies if this has been covered many threads ago.

 

[Mimi in London]

It was on the heels of the Laci/Scott Peterson case. The similarity of SP, MH, and PF is the living a lie/double life aspect. Doting husbands/fiancé but with a secret life - girlfriends for SP and PF, and in MH's case, he hadn't completed his undergraduate degree and was not about to enter medical school as he'd told his wife Lori, who was pregnant with their first child. They could not just break up/ask for a divorce/confess the truth. Their solution was murder (!).

Would Neil Entwistle have some overlap with this profile? Obviously he killed his baby, too. But as far as I recall, he was leading a double life. He was hiding sexual encounters. His wife Rachel was on the verge of discovering he had lied about his career/‘top secret job in intelligence’ and their financial situation, among other things.

 

[UnicornDragon]

Yes, you're right, there was something about a ladder mentioned, but the way it was described at the time, I had a hard time visualizing PF using it as it was described. I think he might be strong, but I'm not sure he could lift a bulky 100+ lbs. tote onto a ladder and up onto stacks of hay bales (round bales? square bales? How high were the stacks?), but maybe he's stronger than he looks. I know people wrasslin' calves/steers/etc. and working with horses/farrier work/lifting hay/straw is physically demanding, but PF (in the few photos I've seen) doesn't appear to be very muscled, IMO. Yes, appearances can be deceiving...

I don't look that big, but I can carry 150 lbs on a long bucket carry for obstacle course races. Two of the men's buckets. I grabbed someone's once during the start because they couldn't manage it and just stacked them and walked on. It's going to be the bulk of a tote, not the weight I bet. That being said, I could likely balance 100+ pounds going up a ladder, but balancing it while going down would be harder. I haven't tried personally, nor am I likely to.

 

[ilovechili]

I have spoken to a Detective, about WS.
He had informed me that they definitely know about the sleuthing capabilities, on the sites, especially the one he was dealing with.

Very similar to what I have heard. I have been told that an understaffed department even with smaller crimes realize if they put a fact out or a picture, what people on the internet can come up with can be a big help, as can just passing the information on. Not that they don't think there are some absolute nuts out there and too much publicity can affect things negatively. Yet used judiciously, I understand it can be a big help.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I'm thinking it's the unknown DNA from the sink.
MOO

Yet, that DNA collection could be diluted and then Amplified later?

So I don't think it's that. I think it is something that needs an extraction of evidence, such as DNA balled up in a piece of black plastic.

The solvents to use to dissolve the black plastic around it or to cut it up and separated, May destroy the DNA.

There is a type of hearing, and I can't remember what it is, but it's a scientific hearing to talk about procedures that are used and if it is commonly accepted in the scientific Community. They used that in the Casey Anthony case.

 

[PommyMommy]

No one wants to take on that bet

I like your hockey game analogy and agree.

I have heard that some smart ones in LE and prosecution and even defense attorneys review sites like this to see where the holes in their cases may lie, if an average person (or a lot of them question something) on these various sites then they know an average juror may as well... Others scoff at it... No idea if it is true or not, but I think it would be a good jury test pool to read such things

https://www.smh.com.au/national/web...ping-police-solve-crimes-20150428-1mutek.html
Police use Websleuths covertly and overtly.

 

[ilovechili]

Would Neil Entwistle have some overlap with this profile? Obviously he killed his baby, too. But as far as I recall, he was leading a double life. He was hiding sexual encounters. His wife Rachel was on the verge of discovering he had lied about his career/‘top secret job in intelligence’ and their financial situation, among other things.

That one is ringing a bell too. The job in intelligence really sounds familiar. I would bet I have seen the case. I don't want to get too off topic but I can't bring the details to mind. I will look it up.

To tie it in, they do all have similarities it seems like. Their lies were going to be exposed or their double lives were going to collide or someone challenged them and saw through them... PF and the others we are talking about....

 

[InvSmith]

Yes indeed. This makes NO sense whatsoever, building a rapport with someone you're supposed to poison, all at PF's direction no less. She's still a liar in my books.

KK has spun a few tales and the defence will "have at her" for it. I recall either in the AA or the tweets from the courtroom (can't remember which) it was stated that KK's timeline was a bit jumbled. No doubt. She was running on empty with almost no sleep. I'm still trying to figure out why they had to go back to KB's to pick up a truck Has anyone here sorted that out? I do recall it was stated that they loaded the "black plastic tote with the silver handles" (just a reminder ) into PF's red pickup at Nash Ranch to transport to the ranchette for burning. Any ideas? Or has this already been sorted out?

It just makes no sense to violently kill someone and leave all that evidence when they had this other plan. It also makes no sense to tell LE about these failed plans if you didn't put anything in the coffee. Why tell anything? Attention? Certainly not guilt.

 

[PommyMommy]

Yet, that DNA collection could be diluted and then Amplified later?

So I don't think it's that. I think it is something that needs an extraction of evidence, such as DNA balled up in a piece of black plastic.

The solvents to use to dissolve the black plastic around it or to cut it up and separated, May destroy the DNA.

There is a type of hearing, and I can't remember what it is, but it's a scientific hearing to talk about procedures that are used and if it is commonly accepted in the scientific Community. They used that in the Casey Anthony case.

Frye Hearing
Frye standard - Wikipedia

 

[Kapua]

Would Neil Entwistle have some overlap with this profile? Obviously he killed his baby, too. But as far as I recall, he was leading a double life. He was hiding sexual encounters. His wife Rachel was on the verge of discovering he had lied about his career/‘top secret job in intelligence’ and their financial situation, among other things.

Yes, NE was cut from the same cloth.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't look that big, but I can carry 150 lbs on a long bucket carry for obstacle course races. Two of the men's buckets. I grabbed someone's once during the start because they couldn't manage it and just stacked them and walked on. It's going to be the bulk of a tote, not the weight I bet. That being said, I could likely balance 100+ pounds going up a ladder, but balancing it while going down would be harder. I haven't tried personally, nor am I likely to.

The question is, whether the ladder would keep the weight of 200 lbs plus 110 lbs (for example) off on each of it's rungs?

 

[Dave F.]

I’m curious, what are some examples of consumptive evidence? Blood, sperm, hair? Apologies if this has been covered many threads ago.

This is probably really outdated, but my understanding is that blood sample less than two small drops from the same small area, or less than ten human hairs with intact follicles that were live at the time or removal, risk being destroyed in full scale DNA testing.
Extremely minute quantities can be tested by recombinant DNA, which is destructive in any form.
IMO

 

[ilovechili]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/web...ping-police-solve-crimes-20150428-1mutek.html
Police use Websleuths covertly and overtly.

Thank you. This was a very interesting read. I have felt this goes on and have been told it does as well. I think wise LE would use any resource available. Even aside from suspects and real knowledge by some, everyone looks at information differently depending on their life experiences and the way they interpret something.

 

[ilovechili]

It just makes no sense to violently kill someone and leave all that evidence when they had this other plan. It also makes no sense to tell LE about these failed plans if you didn't put anything in the coffee. Why tell anything? Attention? Certainly not guilt.

My guess is to put it on him. He wanted her to do the coffee, he wanted her to make friends with her and do a play date, etc. I wonder if it was not her own thing. She would not be the first woman to be jealous of the wife, fiance, baby mama and have to see her competition for herself...

Although I also do not doubt he suggested this or they came to this thought together either before I am jumped on for putting it on her.

IMO they are both as guilty as sin.

 

[Artis]

Kenney told Slater she didn’t put anything in the coffee. Kelsey took the coffee, Slater said. Kenney tried building a rapport with Kelsey at Frazee’s direction, suggesting a play date in the future. Kenney gave Krystal (has to be "Kelsey") a number for a burner phone she bought, again at Frazee’s direction.”
However, Kenney allegedly told authorities she didn’t put anything in the coffee. Kenney told police “she didn’t drug the coffee because ‘she didn’t want to hurt her.’ Kenney communicated with Frazee after this. She said he was angry & sent an apology text later that day,” the testimony alleged.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/01/krystal-jean-lee-kenney-idaho/

If KKL had poisened the macchiato, then KB would have been in which constitution: sedated or dead?
If KB was thought (by PF) to be dead after KKL's visit, it makes no sense building a rapport before and giving a burner phone number away.
If KB was thought (by PF) to be "only" sedated, then I ask: why/for what? What proceeding would have followed exactly?

This is one of the reasons that I question the solicitation stories, told by KK to M. Until I see proof, like texts, where it's discussed, in writing, I choose not to believe it. They (KK & PF) may have had conversations about ways to "get rid of" Kelsey and drugs may have been brought up (a nurse might think of that, due to her line of work), but I think this first (???) trip to Kelsey's, with the coffee, was purely for KK to check out her perceived competition. I think the burner phone and play date stuff were all her ideas. While I still believe the evidence points to PF being Kelsey's killer, it was KK who drove thousands of miles, in just a couple of months (two trips just a week apart) to stalk and come close to bludgeoning Kelsey, herself. She had her own motivations.

 

[Dave F.]

Kelsey Berreth murder case: Patrick Frazee wants wrongful death suit dismissed

March 4, 2019 Denver Post

This article doesn't really make a lot of sense, as it appears to combine the child custody case in Cripple Creek and the federal lawsuit in Denver. I suspect it is just the opening filings in the "right to file at all" question in the Denver Federal Court. This is the first public mention of the Conservator Marcie McMinimee, who actually has legal custody of the child at this time. CB has Temporary Physical Custody.
Marcie R. McMinimee
Marcie R. McMinimee
[...]
Patrick Frazee, 32, filed a motion in Teller County District Court on Friday asking a judge to deny a claim by Berreth’s parents, Cheryl-Lee Ellen Berrethand Darrell Lynn Berreth, seeking custody of 1-year-old Kaylee.

The motion contests a second amended complaint by the Berreths seeking custody of their granddaughter. The first was made by Marcie McMinimee, a special conservator for Kaylee, the lawsuit filed by Colorado Springs attorney Jennifer Stock says.

Colorado’s wrongful death statute clearly states that the Berreths have no standing to make a legal claim based on the alleged wrongful death of Kelsey Berreth, the motion says.

“Only her living and surviving child, KF (Kaylee Frazee), has standing to bring a wrongful death claim,” it says. “In the original complaint, plaintiffs pled that the outrageous conduct of Mr. Frazee was the alleged killing and death of their daughter at his hands … But plaintiff’s attempt to save the claim fail and it must be dismissed.”
[...]
“Patrick Frazee is entitled to dismissal because Kelsey Berreth has a daughter, which, in fact, precludes Kelsey Berreth’s parents from bringing a wrongful death claim against him. And Colorado law does not permit more than one civil suit for the death of one person,” the motion says.

A Teller County judge has repeatedly determined that the Berreths should retain temporary custody of Kaylee.

 

[MsBetsy]

The question is, whether the ladder would keep the weight of 200 lbs plus 110 lbs (for example) off on each of it's rungs?

Maybe he used the tractor to lift the tote on and off the hay, and used the ladder to climb up and push the tote further back and out of sight. When he went to retrieve it, he would have to climb back up again and pull it forward. Imo

 

[ilovechili]

This is one of the reasons that I question the solicitation stories, told by KK to M. Until I see proof, like texts, where it's discussed, in writing, I chose not to believe it. They (KK & PF) may have had conversations about ways to "get rid of" Kelsey and drugs may have been brought up (a nurse might think of that, due to her line of work), but I think this first (???) trip to Kelsey's, with the coffee, was purely for KK to check out her perceived competition. I think the burner phone and play date stuff were all her ideas. While I still believe the evidence points to PF being Kelsey's killer, it was KK who drove thousands of miles, in just a couple of months (two trips just a week apart) to stalk and come close to bludgeoning Kelsey, herself. She had her own motivations.

I for one do not disagree that this is a very likely possibility. One case keeps coming to mind for me but I have not brought it up. The "other" woman often when they start to wonder if they are being played (I will leave my wife, etc.) often calls or goes to check out the competition all on their own...

 

[enelram]

Would Neil Entwistle have some overlap with this profile? Obviously he killed his baby, too. But as far as I recall, he was leading a double life. He was hiding sexual encounters. His wife Rachel was on the verge of discovering he had lied about his career/‘top secret job in intelligence’ and their financial situation, among other things.

I've also wondered if PF didn't allude to the ranch as being
solely "his" early on. Could easily have been another of his
embellishing lies that he figured a girl from out of town
would not find out. I'm sure he inflated lots of his assets
in the beginning.

 

[Artis]

The sedation would allow for easier attack that a blindfold game in my opinion. I have said this before as in the Laci Peterson case, there was evidence she was drugged and made ill prior to her eventual death. I would propose that KB's long daily drives were great opportunities to give her even one unknown Ambien and that would be dangerous. I also think some of the drugs may account for her severe fatigue. I found the report of severe fatigue unusual for a presenting case of depression. I could believe severe anxiety with moderate fatigue. Knowing that you have one person in and out her house with access to medications that impair you when you drive is a scary thought. Not only that but with Ambien you have limited to no memory of what has occurred. People take them on flights and get off planes with no idea where they are at. Just a thought.... KB could have been experiencing symptoms of depression and anxiety and/or prescription drug manipulation with similar effects or both.

Chronic fatigue is one of the symptoms of persistent and deep depression and I speak from personal experience. Add in a baby and a job with a commute and I can see her always being tired.