Ethiopian Air ET302, Boeing 737 crashes - 157 souls - 10 March 2019

[JanetElaine]

I'm a little confused because I did see a couple of photos shortly after the Ethiopian crash, showing men picking up body bags. with a number of body bags awaiting pick-up. I'll admit at the time I saw those pics, I did wonder how a body could survive in an event that appeared so terribly forceful. Now I'm wondering if those pics I saw were from some other incident?
Regardless, I'm glad that the U.S. has joined in grounding these planes and hope further answers can come relatively quickly. Boeing will survive, though hurt, as has already been mentioned. God rest the souls of the lost.

bbm

I hate even typing this and apologize it's graphic, but they did find body parts... they also get covered and bagged for transportation.

 

[Justice101]

I actually agree with your sentiment. It's what Trump said that I vehemently disagree with. It's not about technology being too complicated but rather pilot proficiency being lacking.

What Trump said was:
"Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly. Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT. I see it all the time in many products. Always seeking to go one unnecessary step further, when often old and simpler is far better. Split second decisions are....

....needed, and the complexity creates danger. All of this for great cost yet very little gain. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot. I want great flying professionals that are allowed to easily and quickly take control of a plane!"
Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) | Twitter

What stuck in my craw was Trump saying "...often old and simpler is far better," and "All of this for great cost yet very little gain."

He implies that the "old" ways are better and the gains (of modern technology) are little. This is patently untrue.

Aviation technology has vastly improved flight safety as evidenced by the reduction of crashes due to the introduction of instruments such as Wind Shear Detection Systems (1990s) and Ground Proximity Warning Systems (GPWS, 1970s) along with the more recent improved Terrain Awareness Warning System (TAWS, 2000s) which lowered the number of crashes due to Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT). These and other recently introduced warning systems have increased air safety significantly.

Trump also says that "Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT." That's also false.

As I understand it, this entire fiasco is a result of Boeing making one poor design decision (having just one hardware sensor input to MCAS), together with an assumption that competent pilots would be able to recognize when there was a problem, and hit the cut-off switches. Those cut-off switches exist on every 737, not just the new Max.

What's happening is that worldwide air travel is exploding, and there is a major shortage of pilots. Airlines in other countries are scrambling to find pilots, and using shortcuts to get them in the seats. The pilot of the Ethiopian Airline crash might have had a lot of hours, but he was 28 years old. The co-pilot had only 200 hours, which is insane for that level of responsibility for passenger lives.

Boeing's decision on how to design MCAS assumed competent pilots, period. That's the problem, but it's not easy for them to say, because they need to sell these planes to airlines in emerging countries, with rushed pilot training and pilots who don't know how to fly an aircraft when the automation is off. The fast track to getting a 737 Max seat in a place like Indonesia or Ethiopia doesn't start with learning how to hand-fly a Cessna 172. They start in the simulator and graduate rapidly to being responsible for the lives of 200 people behind them.

So IMO it isn't about needing an MIT degree or doing away with aviation technology but rather needing pilots who have been competently trained in the first place. All MOO.

Precisely! The reason for the fewer and fewer crashes is computers and complexity handled automatically. He may be lost in new technology, but the world succeeds because of it. Horrible simplification and ignorant comment.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I am struggling to understand this was the force of the crash so great that no human remains survived?

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away. “It tried to climb but it failed and went down nose first,” he said. “There was fire and white smoke which then turned black.”

Another witness said, “When it was hovering, fire was following its tail, then it tried to lift its nose. When it passed over our house, the nose pointed down and the tail raised up. It went straight to the ground with its nose, it then exploded.”

Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge | Reuters

It's beyond horrific.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I hate even typing this and apologize it's graphic, but they did find body parts... they also get covered and bagged for transportation.

The process to identify the remains is "at an early stage" and is "extremely complicated," and it could take weeks.

This is just hideous to say, but from what I've read so far, items belonging to the victims are being given to the families while they wait for human remains, of which there's a paucity. Collecting body parts is going to take time as they're strewn in an area several kilometres apart.

Canadians connected to plane crash victims arrive in Ethiopia, but identifying remains could take weeks | CBC News

 

[JudgeJudi]

Boeing says no grounding is needed. If it grounded all 737 Max planes for 3 months it could cost between $1 billion and $5 billion according to 2 Wall Street firms. This is peanuts to a company the size of Boeing. Last year it posted record revenue of $101 billion and a $10.6 billion profit. It’s forecasting stronger results this year.

Apologies for quoting my own post. Supreme arrogance on the part of Boeing is now costing a very hefty price and it's going to get worse now that all 737 Max planes have been grounded.

Max 8 crisis wipes more than $25 billion off Boeing's market value.

Following the announcement by President Trump that Boeing's 737 Max planes would be grounded across the country, the Boeing’s stock value plunged. Shares of Boeing immediately fell 3% after Trump’s announcement. They later recovered to close slightly higher by the end of the day.

But since the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday, Boeing’s stock has lost more than 10% of its value, wiping out more than $25 billion of the company’s market value.

And that was yesterday.

Ethiopian crash: Boeing 737 Max 8 planes grounded - latest updates - CNN

 

[squid]

Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jetliner faced an emergency almost immediately after takeoff from Addis Ababa, requesting permission in a panicky voice to return after three minutes as the aircraft accelerated to abnormal speed, a person who reviewed air traffic communications said Thursday.

“Break break, request back to home,” the captain told air traffic controllers as they scrambled to divert two other flights approaching the airport. “Request vector for landing.”

Controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet — a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.

All contact between air controllers and the aircraft, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 to Nairobi, was lost five minutes after it took off on Sunday, the person said.

The person who shared the information, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the communications have not been publicly released, said the controllers had concluded even before the captain’s message that he had an emergency.

SBM

Within one minute of Flight 302’s departure, the person who reviewed communications said, Captain Getachew reported a “flight control” problem in a calm voice. At that point, radar showed the aircraft’s altitude as being well below what is known as the minimum safe height from the ground during a climb.
Within two minutes, the person said, the plane had climbed to a safer altitude, and the pilot said he wanted to stay on a straight course to 14,000 feet.

Then the controllers observed the plane going up and down by hundreds of feet, and it appeared to be moving unusually fast, the person said. The controllers, the person said, “started wondering out loud what the flight was doing.”

Two other Ethiopian flights, 613 and 629, were approaching from the east, and the controllers, sensing an emergency on Flight 302, ordered them to remain at higher altitudes. It was during that exchange with the other planes, the person said, that Captain Getachew, with panic in his voice, interrupted with his request to turn back.
Flight 302 was just three minutes into its flight, the person said, and appeared to have accelerated to even higher speeds, well beyond its safety limits.

Cleared by the controllers to turn back, Flight 302 turned right as it climbed further. A minute later, it disappeared from the radar over a restricted military zone.

SBM

Since the Indonesia crash, Boeing has been working on a software update for the 737 Max jets, expected by April. But the company and the Federal Aviation Administration face new questions over whether there should have been more pilot training as airlines added the new models to their fleets. On Wednesday, the chairman of the transportation committee in the House of Representatives said he would investigate the F.A.A.’s certification of the 737 Max, including why the regulator did not require more extensive training.

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jetliner faced an emergency almost immediately after takeoff from Addis Ababa, requesting permission in a panicky voice to return after three minutes as the aircraft accelerated to abnormal speed, a person who reviewed air traffic communications said Thursday.

“Break break, request back to home,” the captain told air traffic controllers as they scrambled to divert two other flights approaching the airport. “Request vector for landing.”

Controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet — a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.

All contact between air controllers and the aircraft, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 to Nairobi, was lost five minutes after it took off on Sunday, the person said.

The person who shared the information, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the communications have not been publicly released, said the controllers had concluded even before the captain’s message that he had an emergency.

SBM

Within one minute of Flight 302’s departure, the person who reviewed communications said, Captain Getachew reported a “flight control” problem in a calm voice. At that point, radar showed the aircraft’s altitude as being well below what is known as the minimum safe height from the ground during a climb.
Within two minutes, the person said, the plane had climbed to a safer altitude, and the pilot said he wanted to stay on a straight course to 14,000 feet.

Then the controllers observed the plane going up and down by hundreds of feet, and it appeared to be moving unusually fast, the person said. The controllers, the person said, “started wondering out loud what the flight was doing.”

Two other Ethiopian flights, 613 and 629, were approaching from the east, and the controllers, sensing an emergency on Flight 302, ordered them to remain at higher altitudes. It was during that exchange with the other planes, the person said, that Captain Getachew, with panic in his voice, interrupted with his request to turn back.
Flight 302 was just three minutes into its flight, the person said, and appeared to have accelerated to even higher speeds, well beyond its safety limits.

Cleared by the controllers to turn back, Flight 302 turned right as it climbed further. A minute later, it disappeared from the radar over a restricted military zone.

SBM

Since the Indonesia crash, Boeing has been working on a software update for the 737 Max jets, expected by April. But the company and the Federal Aviation Administration face new questions over whether there should have been more pilot training as airlines added the new models to their fleets. On Wednesday, the chairman of the transportation committee in the House of Representatives said he would investigate the F.A.A.’s certification of the 737 Max, including why the regulator did not require more extensive training.

Thank you for posting this informative, useful and interesting article.

It must have been an absolutely harrowing last few minutes for the pilots, cabin crew and passengers. The air traffic controllers must have been in a state of disbelief and horrified watching the planes last few minutes. I personally don’t think the problem with the plane are going to be easily fixed with software updates and pilot training. It is possible there is a serious design flaw with the aircraft in conjunction with the MCAS system issue. I really hope the 737-Max aircraft are grounded indefinitely if there is even the slightest possibility of tragedy happening again. Boeing must be very worried.

It is too early to say but I’m wondering if the plane will fly again in its current form which will be very, very costly for Boeing both financially and in reputation. I hope the data can be retrieved successfully from the flight data recorders the one I saw looked very badly damaged. As you can see from the photo above. Hopefully we will learn more soon.

The floral tribute at the crash site are beautiful my heart goes out to the victims families. The people looking for remains and the crash investigators must be having a very difficult time.

 

[Tripod]

bbm

I hate even typing this and apologize it's graphic, but they did find body parts... they also get covered and bagged for transportation.

I know, and it probably is neither here nor there, except for the grieving families The body bags I did see looked as if they had mostly "intact" remains in them. That's why I questioned whether those couple of photos were actually part of this particular incident. I hate typing or thinking about it, too.

 

[Tripod]

Precisely! The reason for the fewer and fewer crashes is computers and complexity handled automatically. He may be lost in new technology, but the world succeeds because of it. Horrible simplification and ignorant comment.

Respectfully, I at least partially agree with Trump's comments. Mostly because of the reading I've done following these awful incidents over the years, and gleaning what both pilots and air safety experts have said. It's obviously a subject that's very complex and of course there are quite a few different opinions, even from the experts. One thing that jumps out to me is a pretty common opinion that pilots in other countries ( not all other countries and certainly not all foreign-trained pilots) are sometimes not as well-trained as pilots here in the U.S. It seems a common complaint is that many pilots today aren't as "up" on flying manually because autopilot and the computer systems do so much. I just can't see that as a good thing.

 

[MsMarple]

I found an excellent article written in February that explains what the MCAS is and why it was added to the Max flight control system. The article is about the Lion Air crash but it's relevant to the Ethiopian Air crash.
After a Lion Air 737 Max Crashed in October, Questions About the Plane Arose

The article is long but worth reading and explains things way better than I ever could.

The upshot is that Boeing altered the design of the 737 in order to make it more fuel efficient to compete with the Airbus a320 (I think they're referring to the a320neo) and at the same time keeping it similar enough to reduce costly pilot training hours.

In order to increase fuel efficiency one of the modifications called for larger engines which had to be mounted differently. The article doesn't cover all the mods but there were a number of them. But the engines had to be moved forward and higher which caused stability issues.

The big problem was that the nose could turn up at low airspeeds which poses the risk of the plane stalling (the bigger engines created more lift which could also nudge the nose up during level flight in high speed conditions but I digress).

So Boeing added the MCAS which basically pushes the nose down if it senses an imminent stall. Note that there are other instruments that aid the pilot and the MCAS was added to address the new design issue.

In fact, Boeing had to add it so that the FAA would certify the plane. Boeing contended that training on the MCAS wasn't necessary and the FAA agreed. Information was included in the manuals but it was not specifically flagged.

Anyway, the article has much more and IMO a good read. Also this one:
Why Investigators Fear the Two Boeing 737s Crashed for Similar Reasons

Current planes in the air:

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

 

[gregjrichards]

The latest news.

Investigators have found a piece of a stabilizer in the wreckage of an Ethiopian jet with the trim set in an unusual position similar to that of a Lion Air plane that crashed last year, two sources familiar with the matter said.

Ethiopian crash investigators find piece of wreckage with similar setting to Lion Air plane: sources

France's air safety agency on Friday began studying data from the black boxes of a Boeing 737 MAX plane that crashed in Ethiopia, as regulators the world over grounded the plane and the U.S. planemaker halted deliveries of its latest model.

French investigators start black box data review from Ethiopia crash

Thank you for your posts everyone.

 

[Justice101]

This one sounds complicated. What if the Ethiopian pilots were not re-trained in the aspects of the MAX? It may not matter. If it is too complex and complicated for the average or below average pilot, then it probably shouldn't be permitted.

In a panicked situation, the human brain gets pigeon-holed into one-way thinking.. with no time to think thru other options.

At this point, it sounds like this silent auto-pilot trimming feature is killing people when 2 things happen: 1) The glide slope indicator fails and 2) the pilot does not recognize that disengaging the regular auto-pilot does not disengage the auto-trim which forces the nose of the plane down in bursts of 30 seconds... only to come back and do it again.

This might be a long term lesson in changing aircraft design such that there is some way to easily fly completely manually.

 

[gregjrichards]

This one sounds complicated. What if the Ethiopian pilots were not re-trained in the aspects of the MAX? It may not matter. If it is too complex and complicated for the average or below average pilot, then it probably shouldn't be permitted.

In a panicked situation, the human brain gets pigeon-holed into one-way thinking.. with no time to think thru other options.

At this point, it sounds like this silent auto-pilot trimming feature is killing people when 2 things happen: 1) The glide slope indicator fails and 2) the pilot does not recognize that disengaging the regular auto-pilot does not disengage the auto-trim which forces the nose of the plane down in bursts of 30 seconds... only to come back and do it again.

This might be a long term lesson in changing aircraft design such that there is some way to easily fly completely manually.

The CEO of Ethiopian Airlines says the pilots in the airline did receive additional pilot training on the Max after the Lionair tragedy.

 

[JanetElaine]

I've had to more or less step away from this thread because it makes me so angry. We fly a lot and have been on these . I'm so glad they're grounded (for now) and hopefully they will fix this problem, although from what I have read experts saying, I am not sure if a mere software patch would make me any happier.

IMO Boeing would be best off to handle this proactively and with gusto, instead of shoving it down the rabbit hole of endless vague investigations, suggestions, and 'guesses'. Of course some investigating is necessary before you can do something, but you're not telling me Boeing have absolutely no idea about what's going on. Openness would be best in this case, IMO. It would show people 'Boeing cares' and restore some trust.

 

[SuziQ]

Where is this part located? In what scenario would a plane be set to dive? Could this be sabotage?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

A screw-like device found in the wreckage of the Boeing Co.737 Max 8 that crashed Sunday in Ethiopia has provided investigators with an early clue into what happened, as work begins in France to decode the black boxes recovered from the scene.

 

[MsMarple]

The CEO of Ethiopian Airlines says the pilots in the airline did receive additional pilot training on the Max after the Lionair tragedy.

Here's the bulletin:
https://skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/4478.pdf

We don't know how much extra training the ET 302 pilot received but it seems like it may not have been enough.

Pilots are trained to handle emergency events during flight which can include disengaging certain controls. Warnings and alerts have short lead times - often under a minute and in many cases 20 to 30 seconds so the pilot has seconds to determine if the alert is accurate or false then react accordingly. In the Ethiopian crash the copilot had only 200 training hours so the pilot was essentially flying the plane alone.

IMO airlines and airplane builders have it *advertiser censored*-backwards. The builder specs a plane with an eye on keeping pilot training on it to a minimum. Airlines push for it so they don't have to spend money on training. Yet both want better, more sophisticated electronics onboard (which actually do make flying safer).

This kind of inverse relationship cannot end well. MOO.

“It is not easier or cheaper or requires less training to fly an automated airplane. It frequently requires more, because you have to have a deep understanding of how a system works, including the dark corners, the counterintuitive things it might do in certain circumstances. Many foreign carriers are trying to take people with zero flying experience, put them in simulators and quickly put them in the right seat of a jetliner. They don’t have the experience, knowledge, skills and confidence to be the absolute master of the aircraft start to finish.”

Lion Air crash shows cockpit computers are no substitute for pilot skills
Edited to reduce verbiage.

 

[gregjrichards]

Where is this part located? In what scenario would a plane be set to dive? Could this be sabotage?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

A screw-like device found in the wreckage of the Boeing Co.737 Max 8 that crashed Sunday in Ethiopia has provided investigators with an early clue into what happened, as work begins in France to decode the black boxes recovered from the scene.

From what I have learned on Airliners it is the rear tail wing which you can see in the photo.

 

[enelram]

Respectfully, I at least partially agree with Trump's comments. Mostly because of the reading I've done following these awful incidents over the years, and gleaning what both pilots and air safety experts have said. It's obviously a subject that's very complex and of course there are quite a few different opinions, even from the experts. One thing that jumps out to me is a pretty common opinion that pilots in other countries ( not all other countries and certainly not all foreign-trained pilots) are sometimes not as well-trained as pilots here in the U.S. It seems a common complaint is that many pilots today aren't as "up" on flying manually because autopilot and the computer systems do so much. I just can't see that as a good thing.

You are so correct about the lack of adequate training for many
foreign pilots. Not to mention sub-standard maintenance on
some foreign airlines.
My elder son is a commercial airline pilot of over 30 + years.
He has complained about poorly trained pilots from other
countries causing problems on take-off and landings here
in US.
Another point to consider is that we may never know the
full story on the cause of this crash. even here in US there
is much cover-up on problems within the industry.
this is a $$$ driven business, plain and simple, not safety
driven which is how it should be.
mOO

 

[squid]

Hero 'Miracle on the Hudson' pilot blasts 'absurd' lack of training in wake of fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash

Captain Chesley B. Sullenberger III, 68, wrote on his Facebook page that the Ethiopian Airlines tragedy and October's Lion Air crash both involved a Boeing 737-8 MAX and changes need to be done to that model.

Sullenberger said he believed the Ethiopian Airlines crew did everything they could to prevent the accident. The retired pilot pointed out that the first officer on the doomed flight had insufficient hours of flight experience. “It has been reported that the first officer on that flight had only 200 hours of flight experience, a small fraction of the minimum in the U.S., and an absurdly low amount for someone in the cockpit of a jet airliner,” he wrote.

We do not yet know what challenges the pilots faced or what they were able to do, but everyone who is entrusted with the lives of passengers and crew by being in a pilot seat of an airliner must be armed with the knowledge, skill, experience, and judgment to be able to handle the unexpected and be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its systems, and of the situation,” Sullenberger continued.

The captain pointed out that “someone with only 200 hours” may not know what to do in an extreme emergency. “Someone with that low amount of time would have only flown in a closely supervised, sterile training environment, not the challenging and often ambiguous real world of operational flying, would likely never have experienced a serious aircraft malfunction, would have seen only one cycle of the seasons of the year as a pilot, one spring with gusty crosswinds, one summer of thunderstorms,” he wrote.

Sullenberger concluded that airlines “have a corporate obligation not to put pilots in that position of great responsibility before they are able to be fully ready.” The pilot said pilot experience should be a “top priority at every airline” in wake of the recent tragedy.

 

[watcher9]

Could the new auto-trim be engaged too early while the plane is still climbing and before it levels off which is when it should be engaged?