CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[steeltowngirl]

I have asked myself, in a Devil's Advocate kind of way, well suppose this all wrong and KB is alive some where, but the biggest obstacle to me at this point is all her blood in the condo- under the floor boards, etc. LE said- so much blood, not compatible with life. People are saying "where's the body?" I am saying: "what would a body be if all the blood is drained from it?"

I have been saying “Where is Kelsey?” I know she is deceased, and perhaps the blood nearly drained from her body. Perhaps even burned beyond recognition.

But I remain hopeful they will find something of her bodily presence to give back to the family for closure. Families of plane crash victims wait for the finding of even the smallest bit of their loved one.

Although the finality of finding her remains will be painful, Kelsey’s family deserves that closure.

 

[MassGuy]

I think KK is lying about almost everything. It's too long to list. Suffice it to say the Defense will heavily use all those lies. For example, in SW116 dated Dec 14, KK stated to investigators that PF did not ask her to take KB's phone and dispose of it. After KK acquired a top attorney, her story changed to PF instructed her to take the phone and dispose of it. Like it or not, the Defense will hone in on all of KK's lies.

KB's gun is a Ruger LCR 9mm. This type of gun is made of as much plastic as possible to make it lightweight.

A burning body is a stench. The action of bactetia begins immediately at death, releasing gases. A dead body begins to smell of decomposition immediately to a dog. I don't have a sensitive nose, and I would call it 12 hours in cool temps. Det Linda Arndt agrees with 12 hours in the JonBenet case when she whiffed decomposition as the child's body was brought upstairs from a cold winter, basement cement floor.

JMO

They can hone in on lies, but good luck to them if her “lies” jibe with the evidence.

That’s corroboration.

Fortunately, PF made the case against himself with his idiotic efforts at deception.

He cannot be separated from this crime, as there is no plausible explanation for his lies.

They are documented, and do not require KK’s testimony.

 

[SandyQLS]

I have asked myself, in a Devil's Advocate kind of way, well suppose this all wrong and KB is alive some where, but the biggest obstacle to me at this point is all her blood in the condo- under the floor boards, etc. LE said- so much blood, not compatible with life. People are saying "where's the body?" I am saying: "what would a body be if all the blood is drained from it?"

Do you know which SW said that bolded part? Or do you have a link? I don't remember this. LE searched the condo from Dec 3; CB1 and CB2 lived there Dec 4 - 6. On Dec 6 CB1 reported the little mensrual blood on the toilet. KK later pointed out blood specks she claims she left for LE to find.

But I do not remember this statement about a copious volume of blood incompatible with life except as speculation by posters. I haven't read every SW and Execution though. Thanks!

 

[MyBelle]

I think KK is lying about almost everything. It's too long to list. Suffice it to say the Defense will heavily use all those lies. For example, in SW116 dated Dec 14, KK stated to investigators that PF did not ask her to take KB's phone and dispose of it. After KK acquired a top attorney, her story changed to PF instructed her to take the phone and dispose of it. Like it or not, the Defense will hone in on all of KK's lies.

KB's gun is a Ruger LCR 9mm. This type of gun is made of as much plastic as possible to make it lightweight.

A burning body is a stench. The action of bactetia begins immediately at death, releasing gases. A dead body begins to smell of decomposition immediately to a dog. I don't have a sensitive nose, and I would call it 12 hours in cool temps. Det Linda Arndt agrees with 12 hours in the JonBenet case when she whiffed decomposition as the child's body was brought upstairs from a cold winter, basement cement floor.

JMO

All very good points!

 

[nwmouse]

Keep in mind, if the prosecution 'badgers' a grandmother, the defense will be quick to slander the victim. Why should poor old grandma SF feel any sympathy for a substance-abusing, cheating, neglectful 'mother' of her son's baby?

It will be a major flaw in the defense strategy to try to portray KB as a substance-abusing, cheating or neglectful mother.

There is no evidence of any of those things, and I think most jurors will be outraged that a murder victim is being slandered by PF's defense.

Its unlikely that the prosecution will "badger" Ma F, imho.
They'll probably ask her some civil, reasonable questions and if she declines to answer those reasonable questions, or becomes obstreperous, it will reflect poorly on Ma F and the defense.

I don't think Ma F's age will create sympathy amongst the jurors, however her conduct will likely influence them one way or another. And if she continues to plead the 5th, juror's are going to feel ambivalence towards her. This is a heinous murder, a mother was beaten to death by Ma F's son.

IMHO and MOO.

 

[MyBelle]

Do you know which SW said that bolded part? Or do you have a link? I don't remember this. LE searched the condo from Dec 3; CB1 and CB2 lived there Dec 4 - 6. On Dec 6 CB1 reported the little mensrual blood on the toilet. KK later pointed out blood specks she claims she left for LE to find.

But I do not remember this statement about a copious volume of blood incompatible with life except as speculation by posters. I haven't read every SW and Execution though. Thanks!

I wondered about that as well because it was critical in the Christopher Edwards
prosecution. The DA brought in the blood soaked mattress and the drywall and an expert testified the volume of blood loss was impossible for Jessica to survive.

In this case, KK claims to have cleaned up and disposed of all the blood soaked items.

 

[scmom]

Do you know which SW said that bolded part? Or do you have a link? I don't remember this. LE searched the condo from Dec 3; CB1 and CB2 lived there Dec 4 - 6. On Dec 6 CB1 reported the little mensrual blood on the toilet. KK later pointed out blood specks she claims she left for LE to find.

But I do not remember this statement about a copious volume of blood incompatible with life except as speculation by posters. I haven't read every SW and Execution though. Thanks!

BBM. I don't remember CB1 reporting any such thing; meaning menstrual blood. It certainly wasn't in the search warrants. Where did you read that?

 

[SandyQLS]

Well we know that KB didn’t “willingly allow her baby to be there” on Thanksgiving, because she was dead.

A baby requires a great deal of attention, but that does not mean that one is completely oblivious to the goings on around them.

Some father PF was, if his mommy was the one providing all the child care when she (the baby) was in his custody.

PF's customers reported he always brought the baby with him. It's in the MSM articles. And I thought it was also reported that SF is still working at the hospital in CS? That's where SF was going on Dec 21, to work? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

 

[nwmouse]

Do you know which SW said that bolded part? Or do you have a link? I don't remember this. LE searched the condo from Dec 3; CB1 and CB2 lived there Dec 4 - 6. On Dec 6 CB1 reported the little mensrual blood on the toilet. KK later pointed out blood specks she claims she left for LE to find.

But I do not remember this statement about a copious volume of blood incompatible with life except as speculation by posters. I haven't read every SW and Execution though. Thanks!

Per the beginning of this thread, the timeline created by TippyLynn:
December 6, 2018 - Thursday

• Investigators did luminal tests on Dec. 6 at KB 's apartment and found KB’s blood DNA profile all over the bathroom including on the toilet, trash can, floor, wall and door hinges. Prosecution asked, “Is it fair to say KB met with foul play?” Slater said, “Yes.”
• They also used Blue Star, a chemical that reacts with blood that can’t be seen to the naked eye, Slater said. Areas of the bathroom tested positive in that test, including the toilet, exterior of bath tub, bottom of trash can, floor, wall opposite of toilet, vanity, hinges.

All women are familiar with menstrual blood in the bathroom - however it usually does not splatter against walls, the bathtub, vanity or hinges. It would be in droplet form, and usually in one place, unless one was walking from the toilet to other areas of the bathroom during flow. But it wouldn't be splattered on walls or hinges, and the droplet form would be quite obvious. Not the splatter of blood found in blunt-force trauma to the head that would create patterns on walls, doors, bath tubs etc.

I am also confident that the forensics unit/testing laboratory is experienced enough to be able to tell which blood was menstrual and which was consistent with being beaten to death by a baseball bat, with evidence that a clean up of all that blood had taken place. Despite KK's testimony that she was instructed by PF to clean up lots of blood in KB's condo.

Menstrual blood contains uterine tissue and other characteristics.

The tampon is irrelevant, if it even existed.

imho and moo.

 

[ajaylee]

BBM. I don't remember CB1 reporting any such thing; meaning menstrual blood. It certainly wasn't in the search warrants. Where did you read that?

I don't have time to track it down for you, but I think there was mention of a tampon in the garbage, meaning that however ridiculous it might be, LE had to admit there was a potentially innocent source of KB's blood on the outside of the toilet bowl.

Yeah, right.

That unlikely suggestion didn't get much traction when the subsequent search found blood traces all over the bathroom, so it had to be in the earliest reports.

 

[scmom]

I don't have time to track it down for you, but I think there was mention of a tampon in the garbage, meaning that however ridiculous it might be, LE had to admit there was a potentially innocent source of KB's blood on the outside of the toilet bowl.

Yeah, right.

That unlikely suggestion didn't get much traction when the subsequent search found blood traces all over the bathroom, so it had to be in the earliest reports.

Yes, I remember the mention of the tampon. Nothing about CB1 reporting menstrual blood on the toilet though.

 

[ajaylee]

Yes, I remember the mention of the tampon. Nothing about CB1 reporting menstrual blood on the toilet though.

I don't remember any report of menstrual blood either. I do remember that the detective agreed that blood had been found on the toilet and that there was a tampon in the trash. The point of the question came across as a suggestion that blood on toilet + toilet = possible perfectly innocent explanation.

That was a moot point shortly after when they found blood everywhere. Who cares which type of blood was on the toilet? There's plenty of blood everywhere else to be clear evidence of a violent crime.

 

[MemPat]

Per the beginning of this thread, the timeline created by TippyLynn:
December 6, 2018 - Thursday

• Investigators did luminal tests on Dec. 6 at KB 's apartment and found KB’s blood DNA profile all over the bathroom including on the toilet, trash can, floor, wall and door hinges. Prosecution asked, “Is it fair to say KB met with foul play?” Slater said, “Yes.”
• They also used Blue Star, a chemical that reacts with blood that can’t be seen to the naked eye, Slater said. Areas of the bathroom tested positive in that test, including the toilet, exterior of bath tub, bottom of trash can, floor, wall opposite of toilet, vanity, hinges.

All women are familiar with menstrual blood in the bathroom - however it usually does not splatter against walls, the bathtub, vanity or hinges. It would be in droplet form, and usually in one place, unless one was walking from the toilet to other areas of the bathroom during flow. But it wouldn't be splattered on walls or hinges, and the droplet form would be quite obvious. Not the splatter of blood found in blunt-force trauma to the head that would create patterns on walls, doors, bath tubs etc.

I am also confident that the forensics unit/testing laboratory is experienced enough to be able to tell which blood was menstrual and which was consistent with being beaten to death by a baseball bat, with evidence that a clean up of all that blood had taken place. Despite KK's testimony that she was instructed by PF to clean up lots of blood in KB's condo.

Menstrual blood contains uterine tissue and other characteristics.

The tampon is irrelevant.

imho and moo.

Thanks, nwmouse, and that would've had to be a menstrual river to have reached under the wood floors in the living area!

Why on earth would the DA have declared this a murder case without evidence of a murder? Just needed something to keep the courts busy?

I struggle with anyone trying to persistently rearrange the facts and I think our mod last night made it clear that we are not to discuss this as if no murder occurred.

 

[scmom]

I don't remember any report of menstrual blood either. I do remember that the detective agreed that blood had been found on the toilet and that there was a tampon in the trash. The point of the question came across as a suggestion that blood on toilet + toilet = possible perfectly innocent explanation.

That was a moot point shortly after when they found blood everywhere. Who cares which type of blood was on the toilet? There's plenty of blood everywhere else to be clear evidence of a violent crime.

Does anyone thinks KB stood in the bathroom and swung a used tampon around to get blood spatter everywhere? Not to sound crass but that's the most far-fetched idea I could think of to explain that.

 

[MassGuy]

Does anyone thinks KB stood in the bathroom and swung a used tampon around to get blood spatter everywhere? Not to sound crass but that's the most far-fetched idea I could think of to explain that.

Ha! And then spread blood under the floorboards, on the fireplace, and God knows where else.

It’s absurd.

 

[nwmouse]

Thanks, nwmouse, and that would've had to be a menstrual river to have reached under the wood floors in the living area!

Why on earth would the DA have declared this a murder case without evidence of a murder? Just needed something to keep the courts busy?

I struggle with anyone trying to persistently rearrange the facts and I think our mod last night made it clear that we are not to discuss this as if no murder occurred.

Exactly. If it was menstrual blood that flowed all the way from the bathroom into the living room and soaked into the floor boards, it would be a deathly hemorrhage with KB's body laying on the floor in her condo.

KB has disappeared, there are blood traces in her condo consistent with a vicious beating, as well as the testimony of KK, who is admittedly an unpleasant character who has lied previously, but quickly scrambled to cop a plea when she realized the other option would be a long stint in prison without Sonic treats. If the DA didn't give good weight to KK's testimony they would not have offered her that plea deal.

Although KB's remains have not been found (that we know of at this time, and the DA might have info he has not made privy to the public), forensics will likely find evidence of human remains in the clumps of plastic located at the Ranchette.

Even a crematorium does not destroy all bone or dental fillings. The bone that remains after cremation is usually sifted then pulverized. It would be exceptionally difficult for the fire at the Ranchette to destroy every bit of evidence. Forensics is so advanced these days they can even test the ashes of a cremated person years later for evidence of poisoning etc.

Even without KB's body there is such strong evidence against PF that I have no doubt he's going to be convicted for murdering the mother of his child, KB.

imho, moo.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yup. Her truthful testimony would be a boon for the prosecution.

I don’t see a snowball’s chance in hell of that happening though.

Could SF possibly be a witness for the defense?

 

[kath4557]

BBM. KK wasn't SF's "guest." PF is her adult son living in a multi-generational household. I doubt SF logged in or out the adult friends her son invited over or paid much attention to them at all considering there was an infant who required care and supervision.

There likely will be a grandparent on the jury who prioritizes care of their infant grandchild over playing hostess to the adult friend. If the DA thinks badgering a grandmother is a good trial strategy, by all means, he should do it..

JMO

I disagree that she wouldn't know if someone was in her home. A jury wouldn't buy that. I wouldn't. I'm 62, have watched all 3 of my grandkids at the same time in my home, the youngest being 2 years old. I'm even more aware of anyone being in my home with the kids around than if I'm alone.

 

[MassGuy]

Could SF possibly be a witness for the defense?

She could be.

If she’s willing to lie, or just forget about anything incriminating, she might be able to back up some aspect of whatever story the defense tries to spin.

It all depends on the defense’s tack.

 

[acutename]

Do you know which SW said that bolded part? Or do you have a link? I don't remember this. LE searched the condo from Dec 3; CB1 and CB2 lived there Dec 4 - 6. On Dec 6 CB1 reported the little mensrual blood on the toilet. KK later pointed out blood specks she claims she left for LE to find.

But I do not remember this statement about a copious volume of blood incompatible with life except as speculation by posters. I haven't read every SW and Execution though. Thanks!

Search warrants only seem to mention blood in various bath room locations- starting with, say, #119

News quotes police as saying "presumed dead" around the time of PF's arrest:

Missing Woodland Park woman, Kelsey Berreth, presumed dead; fiance arrested in her murder

they mention blood evidence and "various objects
maybe we are reading more into that than was explicitly said

reading through search warrants, seems that there is likely more SM, text and chat evidence than anyone has yet released, but around the time of the arrest, KB became "presumed dead"