Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[StarryStarryNight]

I have just recently discovered WS and after reading pretty much nonstop for the past two days I have decided to write my own post. There are some really good, objective thoughts on here although the wading through muck to get to them can get tiresome. I have followed this case from the beginning, however much more recently since the new sketch has been revealed during the press conference. Please note that all of this post is my own opinion based upon the facts of the case. Anything that is speculation and theory is just that.

· Location

There seems to be little to no discussion as to whether the bridge itself is of some significance in relation to the crime. I believe this location was well scouted by BG leading up to that day. I also believe that aside from the strategic advantages the location held for the commission of the crime that BG chose it because it is an important location to him. BG definitely felt safe at the location. BG could very well have spent significant time there as a youth or is an enthusiast of train history, engineering or architecture.

· BG Profile

I for one am glad the new sketch is out. I never saw the 40s+ suspect in the still picture and definitely do not see him in the video. The newly released sketch looks much more like the man I see in the video. That being said I believe the updated age range of 20s-30s spot on. I see a guy in his mid to late 30s that could very easily pass for mid to late 20s.

I believe BG to be an organized killer. There are too many that seem to correlate brutal murder with disorganization. Yes, the bodies and phone were left at the kill site, but if an organized killer feels he has taken sufficient forensic countermeasures would he bother with trying to hide the bodies further? That may lend credence to him being unaware of the phone. I haven’t been able to determine if the clothes found near the creek and kill site marked on the map in this forum are from BG, the girls, or some third party. If BG left the blue jacket behind he could have thought the creek sufficient to wash away any evidence.

If the clothes belong to the girls it could be indicative of sexual assault. This is about power and control to BG and while possible that sexual assault(s) did occur I don’t believe they did. BG wanted to keep control of the girls while inflicting as much terror as possible. That is his fantasy, that is where he derived his pleasure from. How long could he deprive them of their free will until he decided to take their lives? BG seems very methodical and has meditated upon this act for some time, again pointing to organization.

What appears to be a handgun bulging from BG’s pocket shows premeditation and organization as opposed to disorganized killers frequently choosing weapons of opportunity. The creek itself could be a weapon of opportunity but I don’t think he would have moved them back up into the woods had he drowned them. I do not believe the girls were shot but the handgun was used to ensure compliance. I do not recall which thread it was in but an interview transcript done by CNN and the private property owner has him recalling that on 2/16 the crime scene was blocked off but he couldn’t see any blood in the area again ruling out a gun shot as well as stabbing and blunt force trauma. Also the weather history shows that there was no rain prior to 2/16. So if we rule out the creek and any type of death that has prolific exsanguination we are left with suffocation and strangulation. Again it is all about power and control to BG and those methods have been used by other killers to revive their victims just to repeat it over and over exerting his control until it goes too far.

Another thing that leads me to believe this was highly planned is the Gray Hughes’ crime flow video (not sure if I can link). The timeline is incredibly tight. I do not believe the girls saw BG while on the trail. BG scouted this area so much he had plenty of vantage points to stalk his victims while remaining undetected until absolutely necessary. 1:45 to 2:07 PM, 22 minutes is how long it took the girls to get to roughly the middle of the bridge where BG is clearly not visible yet based on the Snapchat photo. The bridge can be crossed in 5 minutes or less by an adult so lets say two girls taking pictures might reach the end by 2:12-2:17. BG is most likely tucked away in a vantage point close to the barricade waiting for Libby to turn back around after the picture of Abby to make his move onto the bridge. BG was about 60 feet from the end of the bridge when he is in the video. This may very well be the first time the girls notice BG and any comments about him may just be where did that guy come from since the majority of conversation was teen girl talk. If the walk to the shallow creek crossing is roughly 10 minutes that puts them at the kill site at roughly 2:30. I don’t know how much time passes here but it is something BG knows quite well because he has already planned his escape and made dry runs along the creek back to his parking spot at the DPS building. We do know that it is roughly a 35-40 minute walk from the kill site to the DPS building based on previous timeframes and similar distances. That would leave BG with about 20-30 minutes to commit the murders before he had to hoof it back overland along the creek back to the trail without being seen by the aforementioned Cheyenne on the trail as she was arriving since her Snapchat on the bridge was 3:47.

I believe that had a witness passed BG on the trail after the murders their might have been a third victim from a gunshot. This leads me to believe that the witness(es) had seen BG previously on the trail during his scouting expeditions.

BG is a member of the regional community, not necessarily Delphi. Indianapolis is a little more than an hour away and West Lafayette under 30 minutes. That greatly increases the population from just 3000 in Delphi and 20,000 in Carrol County, to well over a million people when considering Indianapolis metro area a mere 80 miles away.

I believe BG to be educated but of average intelligence. The calm and collected nature of his voice when ordering the girls down the hill shows he has played this out in his mind many times before. The level of planning and the efficient manner in which BG executed this crime couldn’t be achieved spur of the moment. BG may be employed in a field that requires task and process management.

· Victims/Motive

BG has stalked this area before. Looking for the right victim or victims combined with the right timing for opportunity to commit the crime unhindered. If BG is in his 20s the girls may have represented a recent time in his life where he felt powerless, impotent and emasculated by repeated rejection amongst his peers.

If BG is in his mid-30s (which I find more likely) these girls could have been proxies for a young woman in BG’s life, possibly a daughter in the 10-15 year age range that he’s lost control of somehow. The victims are tied to the motive somehow. BG wasn’t out there to kill just anybody he had very specific criteria to meet and these girls triggered something in BG.

· 4/22/19 Press Conference

The sheer indignation Carter displays in the press conference along to all the direct addresses to BG leads me to believe BG had interjected himself into the investigation someway somehow. BG may have very well been a member of a search party. I do not think BG would lead anyone to the crime scene but he would want to know when the girls were found. BG could have very easily sat in his vehicle at DPS until news of a search had started and shown up at the fire station ready to help. After the bodies were found BG could have been interviewed like other searchers as Carter alluded to in the press conference. There is a WLFITV news report from 2/14/17 where reporter makes specific mention of a man from West Lafayette that has a daughter the girls age and decided to come help search I got an eerie feeling when considering possible motive for BG especially if his daughter was off school that day too.

I hope some of this makes sense and might open up new trains of thought for some people. I do not mean to be graphic or distasteful in any manner. This case has bothered me from day 1 and I allowed myself time to dig into it. Please be kind and informative if you have facts to refute anything that is opinion or speculation of mine. These girls deserve the best we have to offer and sometimes that means allowing the mind to tread into dark territory, please don’t allow fear to keep your brains from working objectively for Abby and Libby.

You have absorbed a ton of info in two days! I think you pulled out a lot of the important aspects. I was interested that you hinted that the clothes seen in the creek could have been BG’s. I have come to believe that also, that perhaps that is why he was able to exit the area without anybody noticing him.

 

[sunshineray]

I hope you can explain this to me because I'm having some sort of a mental block on how they could do that.

We have a BG with one body and 2 faces. Was your #1 guy wearing the same clothes as he was on the bridge? If he wasn't, how did they know how to clear him. If he was, then why are they still showing those same clothes on the latest image? Both people couldn't be wearing the same outfit. MOO

Dressed similarly i believe. I don't think I can post here where I saw this online. I believe a description was given, possibly by multiple people, of someone they previously encountered in that same area of hiking and who favored the first released BG photo. This is AJMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I have wondered if there was a hair found on one of the girls. Maybe that is how they know the hair color.

*this

 

[katydid23]

I dont think LE has stated the girls were murdered right after his image on the phone. I also think I read an interview with Sheriff Tobe that they do not have the murders on tape. They have more of his voice I think, but not the murders.

I could be wrong but I dont remember seeing that anywhere

I think they were probably killed very soon, after his image was taken.

They had to be because of the very tight timeline. I think there was only 20 to 30 minutes between the time they were all together on the bridge, and the time their ride was on the way to pick the girls up, and began calling the cell phone. Very soon after, people began walking around calling the girls names out.

With such a tight timeline, I think the murders had to happen very quickly after the images were taken on the cell.

 

[MassGuy]

I think they were probably killed very soon, after his image was taken.

They had to be because of the very tight timeline. I think there was only 20 to 30 minutes between the time they were all together on the bridge, and the time their ride was on the way to pick the girls up, and began calling the cell phone. Very soon after, people began walking around calling the girls names out.

With such a tight timeline, I think the murders had to happen very quickly after the images were taken on the cell.

Yeah, in addition to the tight timeline, logic says that this was likely a fairly quick event.

They may have been off the beaten path, but there was obviously the potential of his discovery.

People were obviously around the area, as witness statements led to two separate sketches.

This is something that probably would have concerned him greatly, and he wouldn’t have the benefit of a great amount of time.

I think this was both quick, and brutal.

 

[mekeritrig]

Yeah, in addition to the tight timeline, logic says that this was likely a fairly quick event.

They may have been off the beaten path, but there was obviously the potential of his discovery.

People were obviously around the area, as witness statements led to two separate sketches.

This is something that probably would have concerned him greatly, and he wouldn’t have the benefit of a great amount of time.

I think this was both quick, and brutal.

The fact that BG had to stalk them across the entire length of the bridge is something that stands out to me. Given that's he's not visible in the shot of Abby when they were only halfway across shows that he was really hurrying to catch up to them. This guy had a clear vision of what he wanted to do, where he wanted to do it, and how he wanted to do it before ever reaching the girls at the end of the bridge. The fact that it occurred in broad daylight on a trail that apparently had several other people on it just shows how brazen and confident BG was in his plan. That kind of behavior coupled with the fact that he had to control two victims in order to accomplish his sick fantasy makes me think BG isn't that smart, and is just lucky he hasn't been identified yet.

 

[tmar]

I have just recently discovered WS and after reading pretty much nonstop for the past two days I have decided to write my own post. There are some really good, objective thoughts on here although the wading through muck to get to them can get tiresome. I have followed this case from the beginning, however much more recently since the new sketch has been revealed during the press conference. Please note that all of this post is my own opinion based upon the facts of the case. Anything that is speculation and theory is just that.

· Location

There seems to be little to no discussion as to whether the bridge itself is of some significance in relation to the crime. I believe this location was well scouted by BG leading up to that day. I also believe that aside from the strategic advantages the location held for the commission of the crime that BG chose it because it is an important location to him. BG definitely felt safe at the location. BG could very well have spent significant time there as a youth or is an enthusiast of train history, engineering or architecture.

· BG Profile

I for one am glad the new sketch is out. I never saw the 40s+ suspect in the still picture and definitely do not see him in the video. The newly released sketch looks much more like the man I see in the video. That being said I believe the updated age range of 20s-30s spot on. I see a guy in his mid to late 30s that could very easily pass for mid to late 20s.
........
What appears to be a handgun bulging from BG’s pocket shows premeditation and organization as opposed to disorganized killers frequently choosing weapons of opportunity.

I hope some of this makes sense and might open up new trains of thought for some people. I do not mean to be graphic or distasteful in any manner. This case has bothered me from day 1 and I allowed myself time to dig into it. Please be kind and informative if you have facts to refute anything that is opinion or speculation of mine. These girls deserve the best we have to offer and sometimes that means allowing the mind to tread into dark territory, please don’t allow fear to keep your brains from working objectively for Abby and Libby.

Welcome 7%Reichenbach, with your first post.
You certainly have worked hard, and given a great deal of thought to your post.
Your post provides us with many points to consider.
I also think BG scouted the area, and was involved in the search.
MOO.

 

[JustEve]

ok, you win.

But please remember that there are people here who you don't know who might be in the throes of dealing with a loved one living with Alzheimer's, who maybe aren't ready to use it "as humour." Now or ever.

Thank you, but it is not about winning. If taken in its context, this remark was meant to lighten things up a bit and to take some strain off.

I wrote yesterday I had two people with Alzheimer´s in my family, but I see your point and will certainly try to keep my remarks as impersonal as possible from now on.

I apologize to everyone offended by my remark.

 

[Alisajo]

An athlete? A runner? Who would be more noticeable, a man on a bike or a jogger?

Could have been a canoe, see att photo.

 

[JustEve]

Also keep in mind that we really can't throw all towns in the US under one umbrella. Each county has their own unique culture and even within those counties you'll find subtle differences within the towns. There are big differences between New York City and New Orleans, for instance, but there are also differences between Delphi, Indiana and Lafayette. There are nearly 19,000 towns in the USA in more than 3,000 counties. There are very few generalities that one can make to lump them all together. The US is a very big place with differences in geography, history, religious denominations, dialect, and climate.

Of course. US is huge, of course there are differences between regions and even towns. I was just viewing things from my perspective here.

 

[PoppyJune]

I agree that BG is more likely from the regional area than necessarily Delphi. My thought is that he has a relative (grandparent, uncle, parents, etc.) in Delphi but he does not live there. I also agree that the bridge has some significance to him, possibly from his youth (walking the area, playing in the area). He knew that area and he was organized in his crime.

 

[ShHolmz]

If they think someone will remember seeing a vehicle there after 2+ years with no description whatsoever, good luck. No, instead of there being a super-secret reason for withholding this info, I'll go with a simpler explanation: LE doesn't have this info.

I believe it was abandoned at the time.
IMO this would make it more memorable.

 

[MsBetsy]

I dont think LE has stated the girls were murdered right after his image on the phone. I also think I read an interview with Sheriff Tobe that they do not have the murders on tape. They have more of his voice I think, but not the murders.

I could be wrong but I dont remember seeing that anywhere

There was a statement in MSM shortly after the press conference that the video was taken "minutes" before the murder. I don't know the source or if it was a direct statement from LE but it has been posted here somewhere.
It does give the impression that they were attacked and killed within minutes after the video was taken, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. Minutes can mean just under an hour. Imo

 

[neesaki]

So what do you guys make of this business about “able to get around quickly”?

I know LE seems to be placing great importance on this vehicle, but I always have wondered about a motorcycle.

—

So, from this statement, assuming he was on foot until he got to the vehicle, this would indicate that he is possibly agile.

Possibly he’s a runner ?

 

[rainwaterstill]

Did Abby herself have a dog?

Way, way back in a much earlier thread, it was mentioned that Abby had a pet cat. I don't remember anyone in her family mentioning she had a dog.

 

[rainwaterstill]

Here is an interesting article that is unrelated to the topic but maybe, a new idea.

“Visual intelligence division” in Israel employing youths with autism and good visuospatial skills.

The Israeli Army Unit That Recruits Teens With Autism

What if one could send them the video? They see patterns that no computer, no quality image can see.

What an amazing division!!! I wonder if the Pentagon has, or has plans to, develop something similar for the United States?

 

[ilovechili]

Okay, as someone who has lived in Lafayette, IN, and as someone who has brownish hair w/red "highlights" (natural, and not from any artificial substance), I noticed in the first few months of living in Lafayette that *everyone* (homeowners) in that area pours tons of water softener salt into their water to keep their laundry from getting orange-ish/ reddish "rusty" streaks... Also noticed that, during the time I lived there, my hair seemed to have more of the red "highlights" than before or after I lived there. FWIW. MOO.

Btw, Lafayette is just maybe a 15-20 min. drive from Delphi, so maybe some similarities in the water and geological formations in/near the water table in that area.

In all lightness then he could be anyone from some areas in IN who had brown hair but the water added his red "highlights"... The hair color is why they think he is local ... All just kidding and no offense to residents intended

In all seriousness though, they do seem to feel now he is local for some real reason(s). Maybe I am just hopeful but between stating he is local or has connections or is familiar with the area, looking for a particular car and/or driver, talking almost as if he is in the room at the PC, a total change of sketch, etc., it seems they have narrowed in on something/someone. There were some odd remarks, one of the oddest to me was him wanting to know what they know...

On the other hand, it could all be standard and trying to elicit some response or reaction... Risky though if so...

 

[7%Reichenbach]

I only say that it is a handgun in his pocket because there is one manufacturer that makes a firearm with a very distinctive outline that I see in BG's pocket. Had it been a simple bulge I wouldn't be as confident. Perhaps someone with imaging software and a knowledge of popular Austrian handgun frames could superimpose the image of BG and various handgun images to see if any match.

I truly can't see how anyone can detect with any level of certainty what's in BG's pockets.

But otherwise you make some interesting points. I like your points about organization versus disorganization and possible COD.

One thing that throws me about the whole thing is how little time he had. LE stated that the girls were murdered within minutes of his image being captured on Libby's phone.

Which indicates to me the murders were captured on the recording.

If so, I think maybe either he was interrupted in some manner or his main goal was killing them versus sexual assault or causing prolonged torment.

I'm trying to think what the Zodiac killer in California did. I think with some he killed them without warning and quickly. Makes me think of the recent guy out here in So Cal. who was trying to kill - it appears- campers in a local park, and ended up killing Tristan Beaudette who was in his tent with his two toddler daughters.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I have just recently discovered WS and after reading pretty much nonstop for the past two days I have decided to write my own post. There are some really good, objective thoughts on here although the wading through muck to get to them can get tiresome. I have followed this case from the beginning, however much more recently since the new sketch has been revealed during the press conference. Please note that all of this post is my own opinion based upon the facts of the case. Anything that is speculation and theory is just that.

· Location

There seems to be little to no discussion as to whether the bridge itself is of some significance in relation to the crime. I believe this location was well scouted by BG leading up to that day. I also believe that aside from the strategic advantages the location held for the commission of the crime that BG chose it because it is an important location to him. BG definitely felt safe at the location. BG could very well have spent significant time there as a youth or is an enthusiast of train history, engineering or architecture.

· BG Profile

I for one am glad the new sketch is out. I never saw the 40s+ suspect in the still picture and definitely do not see him in the video. The newly released sketch looks much more like the man I see in the video. That being said I believe the updated age range of 20s-30s spot on. I see a guy in his mid to late 30s that could very easily pass for mid to late 20s.

I believe BG to be an organized killer. There are too many that seem to correlate brutal murder with disorganization. Yes, the bodies and phone were left at the kill site, but if an organized killer feels he has taken sufficient forensic countermeasures would he bother with trying to hide the bodies further? That may lend credence to him being unaware of the phone. I haven’t been able to determine if the clothes found near the creek and kill site marked on the map in this forum are from BG, the girls, or some third party. If BG left the blue jacket behind he could have thought the creek sufficient to wash away any evidence.

If the clothes belong to the girls it could be indicative of sexual assault. This is about power and control to BG and while possible that sexual assault(s) did occur I don’t believe they did. BG wanted to keep control of the girls while inflicting as much terror as possible. That is his fantasy, that is where he derived his pleasure from. How long could he deprive them of their free will until he decided to take their lives? BG seems very methodical and has meditated upon this act for some time, again pointing to organization.

What appears to be a handgun bulging from BG’s pocket shows premeditation and organization as opposed to disorganized killers frequently choosing weapons of opportunity. The creek itself could be a weapon of opportunity but I don’t think he would have moved them back up into the woods had he drowned them. I do not believe the girls were shot but the handgun was used to ensure compliance. I do not recall which thread it was in but an interview transcript done by CNN and the private property owner has him recalling that on 2/16 the crime scene was blocked off but he couldn’t see any blood in the area again ruling out a gun shot as well as stabbing and blunt force trauma. Also the weather history shows that there was no rain prior to 2/16. So if we rule out the creek and any type of death that has prolific exsanguination we are left with suffocation and strangulation. Again it is all about power and control to BG and those methods have been used by other killers to revive their victims just to repeat it over and over exerting his control until it goes too far.

Another thing that leads me to believe this was highly planned is the Gray Hughes’ crime flow video (not sure if I can link). The timeline is incredibly tight. I do not believe the girls saw BG while on the trail. BG scouted this area so much he had plenty of vantage points to stalk his victims while remaining undetected until absolutely necessary. 1:45 to 2:07 PM, 22 minutes is how long it took the girls to get to roughly the middle of the bridge where BG is clearly not visible yet based on the Snapchat photo. The bridge can be crossed in 5 minutes or less by an adult so lets say two girls taking pictures might reach the end by 2:12-2:17. BG is most likely tucked away in a vantage point close to the barricade waiting for Libby to turn back around after the picture of Abby to make his move onto the bridge. BG was about 60 feet from the end of the bridge when he is in the video. This may very well be the first time the girls notice BG and any comments about him may just be where did that guy come from since the majority of conversation was teen girl talk. If the walk to the shallow creek crossing is roughly 10 minutes that puts them at the kill site at roughly 2:30. I don’t know how much time passes here but it is something BG knows quite well because he has already planned his escape and made dry runs along the creek back to his parking spot at the DPS building. We do know that it is roughly a 35-40 minute walk from the kill site to the DPS building based on previous timeframes and similar distances. That would leave BG with about 20-30 minutes to commit the murders before he had to hoof it back overland along the creek back to the trail without being seen by the aforementioned Cheyenne on the trail as she was arriving since her Snapchat on the bridge was 3:47.

I believe that had a witness passed BG on the trail after the murders their might have been a third victim from a gunshot. This leads me to believe that the witness(es) had seen BG previously on the trail during his scouting expeditions.

BG is a member of the regional community, not necessarily Delphi. Indianapolis is a little more than an hour away and West Lafayette under 30 minutes. That greatly increases the population from just 3000 in Delphi and 20,000 in Carrol County, to well over a million people when considering Indianapolis metro area a mere 80 miles away.

I believe BG to be educated but of average intelligence. The calm and collected nature of his voice when ordering the girls down the hill shows he has played this out in his mind many times before. The level of planning and the efficient manner in which BG executed this crime couldn’t be achieved spur of the moment. BG may be employed in a field that requires task and process management.

· Victims/Motive

BG has stalked this area before. Looking for the right victim or victims combined with the right timing for opportunity to commit the crime unhindered. If BG is in his 20s the girls may have represented a recent time in his life where he felt powerless, impotent and emasculated by repeated rejection amongst his peers.

If BG is in his mid-30s (which I find more likely) these girls could have been proxies for a young woman in BG’s life, possibly a daughter in the 10-15 year age range that he’s lost control of somehow. The victims are tied to the motive somehow. BG wasn’t out there to kill just anybody he had very specific criteria to meet and these girls triggered something in BG.

· 4/22/19 Press Conference

The sheer indignation Carter displays in the press conference along to all the direct addresses to BG leads me to believe BG had interjected himself into the investigation someway somehow. BG may have very well been a member of a search party. I do not think BG would lead anyone to the crime scene but he would want to know when the girls were found. BG could have very easily sat in his vehicle at DPS until news of a search had started and shown up at the fire station ready to help. After the bodies were found BG could have been interviewed like other searchers as Carter alluded to in the press conference. There is a WLFITV news report from 2/14/17 where reporter makes specific mention of a man from West Lafayette that has a daughter the girls age and decided to come help search I got an eerie feeling when considering possible motive for BG especially if his daughter was off school that day too.

I hope some of this makes sense and might open up new trains of thought for some people. I do not mean to be graphic or distasteful in any manner. This case has bothered me from day 1 and I allowed myself time to dig into it. Please be kind and informative if you have facts to refute anything that is opinion or speculation of mine. These girls deserve the best we have to offer and sometimes that means allowing the mind to tread into dark territory, please don’t allow fear to keep your brains from working objectively for Abby and Libby.

Best post I have read on this thread...thank you! Please stick around and keep posting. You have given me plenty to think about. Thank you

 

[TTF14]

BG could have very easily sat in his vehicle at DPS until news of a search had started and shown up at the fire station ready to help. After the bodies were found BG could have been interviewed like other searchers as Carter alluded to in the press conference.

rsbm

I'm not sure Carter specifically was alluding to BG (CCC) being interviewed by news outlets, but maybe he was. Maybe that's exactly what he meant!

Excellent first post. Welcome to WS! Keep posting.