Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #105

[MizStery]

But yes, I'm wondering the same thing. And if nobody saw him afterwards, why is that?

If no one saw him leave, why not?

I am paraphrasing but it is well documented when listening to BP during the Abby and Libby Round Table that she had indeed stipulated LE told her they had a witness(es)? who saw BP leaving.

This reference to a witness is at about 14:00 time stamp during the ‘Libby and Abby round table discussion Part 2’.It is really a long video about an hour and seven minutes. I did my best to summarize what the caller asked Becky. I cannot do a professional transcription so the way I paraphrase is awkward to read.

A caller asks Becky Patty about a witness that saw BG,the caller said, “If there really was a witness at 3:15 than wouldn’t BG be obviously wet and kinda of crazy looking?

Becky replies yes LE did say there was a witness, leaving. But Becky ‘sounds puzzled’ and replies to the caller ,”I do not know where you are getting the 3:15 from”?

Grey then interrupts and repeats the question,How or where does the caller get the 3:15 time? Grey continues,”I think the caller is confusing Cheyenne who said she saw Derick at “[conversation continues as Grey attempts to run through the entire timeline to figure out where the caller is getting the 3:15 time from?

link

<snip>

I don't see the purpose of getting wet and cold (icy water and being wet on a 40 degree day is COLD) unless his route out was close and out of public eye (thus my thoughts about the cemetery).

TL4S this is the identical scenario of how I imagine YBG exited the crime scene.

MOO

 

[tresir2012]

I am paraphrasing but it is well documented when listening to BP during the Abby and Libby Round Table that she had indeed stipulated LE told her they had a witness(es)? who saw BP leaving.

This reference to a witness is at about 14:00 time stamp during the ‘Libby and Abby round table discussion Part 2’.It is really a long video about an hour and seven minutes. I did my best to summarize what the caller asked Becky. I cannot do a professional transcription so the way I paraphrase is awkward to read.

A caller asks Becky Patty about a witness that saw BG,the caller said, “If there really was a witness at 3:15 than wouldn’t BG be obviously wet and kinda of crazy looking?

Becky replies yes LE did say there was a witness, leaving. But Becky ‘sounds puzzled’ and replies to the caller ,”I do not know where you are getting the 3:15 from”?

Grey then interrupts and repeats the question,How or where does the caller get the 3:15 time? Grey continues,”I think the caller is confusing Cheyenne who said she saw Derick at “[conversation continues as Grey attempts to run through the entire timeline to figure out where the caller is getting the 3:15 time from?

link





TL4S this is the identical scenario of how I imagine YBG exited the crime scene.

MOO

Thanks for that. The caller must be referring to FSG who was seen by DG IMO. But we don't know the witness (FSG?) actually witnessed BG do we? - He just witnessed a couple under the bridge AFAIK. And that couple must have been identified.

 

[MizStery]

The caller must be referring to FSG who was seen by DG IMO. But we don't know the witness (FSG?) actually witnessed BG do we? - He just witnessed a couple under the bridge AFAIK.

That is essentially what Grey attempts to do. He meticulously goes through the entire timeline attempting to figure out the exact time of each of the known witnesses. Thereby using the process of elimination to identify which of witnesses the caller refers to as to a 3:15 timeframe. Is Grey highjacking the conversation because it was veering to the investigation?Well I’m not sure but Grey does jump in numerous times during the long podcast to clarify there are things in the investigation that BP cannot discuss.

I have listened to the original podcast of Becky Patty and Mike Patty and what is in the current video is a heavily edited version. So I have the added benefit of hearing the podcast in its entirety. I can paraphrase from my notes what’s missing in the current video to clarify some things but TOS rules are I need a link. And as I already stated the original podcast has been heavily edited.

MOO

 

[tresir2012]

That is essentially what Grey attempts to do. He meticulously goes through the entire timeline attempting to figure out the exact time of each of the known witnesses. Thereby using the process of elimination to identify which of witnesses the caller refers to using a 3:15 timeframe. Is Grey highjacking the conversation because it was veering to the investigation?Well I cannot say but Grey does say numerous times during the podcast there are things in the investigation that BP cannot discuss.

I have listened to the original podcast of Becky Patty and Mike Patty and what is in the current video is a heavily edited version. So I have the added benefit of hearing the podcast in its entirety. I can paraphrase from my notes what’s missing in the current video to clarify some things but TOS rules are I need a link. And as I already stated the original podcast has been heavily edited.

MOO

Grey Huze channel is a link in page 1 of every thread so doesn't that mean all his stuff is authorized? Are you saying the original is not even available anymore? If so then, I understand. We can speculate about the witness though, and that's my thoughts. I just wonder why GH just didn't let the caller explain who he/she was talking about. MOO.

 

[MizStery]

Yes that is correct. For some reason the original podcast of Mike and Becky Part 2 has been pulled. But to add to the confusion Grey uses the same link and retains the original title. So now what your viewing is an one hour plus extended version of a complication of Grey’s video’s. Not the original podcast I watched.

original is not even available anymore

I point that out because I think Grey realized what a ‘loaded’ question the caller was asking. Listen closely to BP ‘repeat the question’ from the caller my take is for a moment she is ‘not sure how to answer it’.Perhaps Grey wrestles the potential problems the caller poses to Becky ‘so as to take the pressure off her’. Otherwise as you point out why not just ask the caller for clarification.

We can speculate about the witness though, and that's my thoughts. I just wonder why GH just didn't let the caller explain who he/she was talking about. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

Thanks @MizStery .

This is complicated, talking about witnesses that we are unsure of, and sketches that were provided over two years ago and not seemingly followed up. I cannot fathom it TBH and am losing confidence that LE really have a handle on it at all. JMO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I think that is important to address. My theory has always been they were stalked like a lone wolf would deer. But since I am not sure if he tracked them over the bridge, or came up on them from under the bridge, it would be hard to know if there was an accomplice at the point waiting at the down the hill area, since only BG was caught on the film. It is a possibility, and maybe if so, both have been very secretive.

Police have said that they are confident that we are looking for only one suspect. IMO, there would have been more than 3 sets of footprints at the scene. There is a muddy creek bank and soft dirt that would have been imprinted. Trying to erase these under the time constraints would not be possible.

 

[tresir2012]

Police have said that they are confident that we are looking for only one suspect. IMO, there would have been more than 3 sets of footprints at the scene. There is a muddy creek bank and soft dirt that would have been imprinted. Trying to erase these under the time constraints would not be possible.

Why more than 3 sets? Do you think there were accomplices then, despite what LE say?

 

[sunshineray]

(Ponders for 2 Hrs...)

A) He's still there?

B) Everyone Else on Trail that Day was Blind or Partially-Sighted?

Very Amateur Opinion and Speculation.

A- He's still there...until more and more people start arriving to search before the police are called.

There's a reason why LE had an end time for sighting the car at right around the time early searchers would have been voicing more urgent concerns and saying let's call the police. They must think killer was still there.

Edit by me: The police must think it's a real possibility that the killer had still been there*

Either the killer was waiting to get to their car unnoticed and was still there lurking in the woods, trying to avoid being seen by a rapidly growing amount of people arriving on the trails or maybe killer was there in plain sight involved in the initial searching but making sure to slip away to their car (now surrounded by many others) and leave before police arrived. AJMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

Why more than 3 sets? Do you think there were accomplices then, despite what LE say?

This was my original speculation. However, I am following LE instructions, and only looking at sketch#2; one Perp. It’s been a confusing case, for sure. That said, I’m not adding any narrative beyond LE. Focus.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Ravenmoon]

Why more than 3 sets? Do you think there were accomplices then, despite what LE say?

No. I don't believe there are more than 3 sets of footprints. I apologize for my lack of clarity. I was attempting to explain why I believe there is only one perpetrator.
EBM to attempt clarification.

 

[Sneaker33]

Indiana state law does not recognize "mentally ill by reason of insanity" types of pleas/ defenses. They have " guilty but mentally ill" instead. There is a huge difference between the two types. In "Guilty but mentally ill," the person is found guilty and sent to a mental hospital for treatment. When and if doctors have determined the person is " cured", they are then transferred to a regular prison to serve their sentence.. Indiana's laws on this have been upheld by the Supreme Court. Also, juries almost never buy a " mentally ill" defense. These laws prevent a "get out of jail free" card for defendants.

Yes! Even if there were mental health diagnoses he knew what he was doing.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I have always thought he took them down the hill to the road then followed the road right down to the creek, which is also where the sand bar appears to be in Satellite photos. I'll try to post a map.

eta see if this works

Google Maps

Click on map link above

The terrain is really steep except in certain areas. Along that road on the south end of the bridge when you go East of the bridge the terrain gets real steep off the edge of the road.

This is a LIDAR plus Elevation and Hydrology of the the area of the bridge area and you can see what the ground looks like under all of those trees and the steepness of the hills.

 

[Ravenmoon]

In the earlier part of the investigation , when only stills of BG were available to the public...so many of us tried to see the face clearly. One of my very first thoughts was that attempted close ups resembled the mask that the vigilante of"V for Vendetta " wore . Total speculation of course . but .sometimes our initial and most simple reactions and thoughts are closer to the truth.

 

[Ravenmoon]

If BG did wear any kind of mask or face covering, it would explain why DC has commented that we need to focus more on the movements and mannerisms and not the head and face. I may be stretching pretty hard but it is a possibility .
IMOO

 

[Sneaker33]

But the moral responsibility- to the innocent girls, whose lives have been cut so short, to their devastated relatives, to this tiny rural community that, too, has been broken by his senseless crime - is taken out of the equation?

(Self-sinning and self-absolving, such a zero-waste concept...)

I think he would need to make a confession. I recall a case where a Massachusetts man murdered his pregnant wife on the way home from a child birth class. The wife died at the scene and the baby was delivered but passed away weeks later. The husband jumped to his death from a bridge going into Boston. I was told the priest at the funeral said God would look at all of the man's life. I think a church service could have been refused but perhaps done for innocent family members. This was the case of Charles Stuart.

 

[tresir2012]

The terrain is really steep except in certain areas. Along that road on the south end of the bridge when you go East of the bridge the terrain gets real steep off the edge of the road.

This is a LIDAR plus Elevation and Hydrology of the the area of the bridge area and you can see what the ground looks like under all of those trees and the steepness of the hills.

I don't think they went off that road at all. Why would they? They just went DTH from the bridge to get to that road. Then followed that road and it leads right to the sandbar in the creek, where they then cross. MOO.

ETA I just measured the distance from the bridge end along that road to the creek sandbar and it is only 114 metres. Perhaps someone else can check it too? It would only take minutes to get to it. Seconds, if they ran to try to escape him IMO.

 

[SeattleStew]

If BG did wear any kind of mask or face covering, it would explain why DC has commented that we need to focus more on the movements and mannerisms and not the head and face. I may be stretching pretty hard but it is a possibility .
IMOO

I think you are referring to a "Guy Fawkes" mask? I see what you mean, except I think the colors are flipped the other way black mask with white eyes instead of white mask with black eyes. MOO.

 

[Boxer]

Yes! Even if there were mental health diagnoses he knew what he was doing.

Agree.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I don't think they went off that road at all. Why would they? They just went DTH from the bridge to get to that road. Then followed that road and it leads right to the sandbar in the creek, where they then cross. MOO.

ETA I just measured the distance from the bridge end along that road to the creek sandbar and it is only 114 metres. Perhaps someone else can check it too? It would only take minutes to get to it. Seconds, if they ran to try to escape him IMO.

The road leads to the house on at the end of the road not to the creek. At the shortest distance to the creek from that road the terrain is very steep.

Here are two frames from the helicopter video after the girls had been found. The first frame (23:56 into the video) is a wide shot that shows the lay of the land east of the bridge on the south side of the creek. The second frame (13:25 into the video) is a closer shot that shows a narrower portion of the same road. You can see how steep the embankment is along that road except where it is closest to the bridge itself.

ETA: A screenshot from the county GIS that has the Road Overlay added to show the path of the road.