Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[sunshineray]

The situation didn’t meet the requirements for an amber alert. It met the first criteria on the list posted by @tresir, but not the second or third. The fourth didn’t occur because it wasn’t a clear abduction and there was no description of the abductor or a vehicle.

BBM - Did you read or see this somewhere? I was asking about this the other day and couldn’t find this info anywhere. There was some discussion about hearing the phone ring and I was thinking if it didn’t ring and went straight to voice mail it could’ve been off or it ran out of juice.

That timeline that was posted recently, done from interviews by family members on what happened when.

"3:30
Derrick call Becky telling her that Libby's not answering her phone and now the calls goes straight to voicemail"

 

[ACE422]

Watching a ID true crime show with my wife, and a man on it said something that I had heard before years ago (while researching Zodiac) but never applied it to this case...

That often times the killer attends the funeral(s) of his victims.

Any chance LE took photographs of the funeral attendes or those attending the balloon release, etc?

Maybe this was part of the reason they “advertised” the last press conference before holding it. They wanted potential suspects in the room to analyze behavior during and after the event was held? MOO

 

[Boxer]

I found this...
"The child must be age 17 years or younger. Law enforcement must believe the child is in danger of serious bodily harm or death. There is enough descriptive information about the child, abductor, and/or suspect's vehicle to believe an immediate broadcast alert will help."
So it's seems it's and/or as far as a car description goes but it seems a description of an abductor is needed? Descriptive information on just the child who's missing is not enough I guess.

AMBER Alert - Guidelines

Yes. It is true, Amber Alerts rules are
written defining situations where descriptions the child and the abductor or the child and the abductors vehicle are known.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe this was part of the reason they “advertised” the last press conference before holding it. They wanted potential suspects in the room to analyze behavior during and after the event was held? MOO

I recall the date of all prior press conferences have been announced in advance. I think that’s so the media and public can attend and the media is able to report on it. One of the reasons I remember is there’s always a lot of speculation here including hope of an announcement of an arrest.

 

[tresir2012]

Are you saying that if an estranged, deranged spouse takes off with a child in a bus or train because they don't own a car, LE will not issue an Amber Alert??

I think they have to suspect abduction - I posted the criteria for Indiana and it doesn't mention a car or vehicle. LE would have had the say about that.

 

[tresir2012]

I am thinking that, once he got close, at least one of them knew who he was.....recognized him.

That is not the same as saying that either one of them knew him.

And, I agree with your first sentence. If they knew him, others in their circle would likely know him as well, and this case would be long-solved. I say this without any knowledge of how big of a circle they had....but, with one in the band, and another playing sports, it had to have some size to it

I think they were both in the band and played sports weren't they? Not that I'm arguing about it or anything.

 

[tresir2012]

Yes. They could’ve seen the snap and known where they were if LG added them. It was posted to her story and I believe KG said LG posted it to her story.

I believe KG said she saw it at 2.07 so they must have known early on that was where they were at that time.

 

[tresir2012]

It would certainly be interesting to see such a likeness made, but I was strictly referring to voice recognition and comparison, not developing a face from the voice. LE HAS his voice and surely they have a least a few suspects by now?

I think I read they have 1,000 POIs but can that be even possible?

 

[tresir2012]

This shows criteria for an Amber alert. It is clear that they could/should have called it IMO. They may have then had access to thermal imaging helicopters or other such assistance.

Amber Alert: Broadcast Guidelines

What is a “Qualifying Abduction?”

1. The child must be under 18 years of age.
2. The child must be believed to be abducted, and in danger of serious bodily harm or death.
3. There must be enough descriptive information to believe the broadcast will help.
4. Request must be recommended by the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction.

That is all that was needed to call it.

Even if they had called the police asap then by the looks of the time BG was likely seen at Freedom Bridge, the girls were already dead and he was getting away, so it wouldn't have helped anyway it seems.

Bumping the INDIANA Amber alert guidelines as we are still discussing them. No description of an abductor or vehicle needed.

 

[MsFacetious]

LE didn't even believe the girls were in danger, that's why they didn't search through the night. They definitely didn't believe they had been abducted and were in grave danger. There was zero chance they were going to issue an Amber Alert.

No, the Amber Alert would not have helped in this situation. There wouldn't have been any additional resources there before morning. The girls were dead within an hour and were not driven to another location, so nobody would have recognized them with their abductor.

The Amber Alert is designed for confirmed abductions, preferably with a license plate, vehicle description and abductor description. It is used for stranger abductions, like the 8 year old in Texas.

There are exceptions made on the vehicle policy... if a child is abducted from a house where the remaining occupants are slaughtered, or they are witnessed being abducted with a weapon... they are likely to issue the Amber Alert anyway. Jamie Closs, Sarah Maynard, the Groene kids and Elizabeth Smart are examples of Amber Alerts with almost no other information.

Lizzy and Lyric were younger than Abby and Libby but no Amber Alert was issued there either. It didn't meet the criteria.

I think LE may have narrowed it down to a familial line but have not gone all the way yet. Hence the may be in this room/watching comment. I think it is just a matter of time - maybe a few more months perhaps.

It's also possible that they did know if he was in the room, but didn't want anyone else to know they knew that for sure. Think about what the reaction would have been if he had said "and he's in this room right now."

That wasn't going to work. I think he wanted to freak the suspect out but not cause him to do anything crazy if he was in the room (like shoot the place up.)

Also if they said he was in the room, they admit they know who he is and the public comes after LE for not arresting him already. That would have caused an enormous uproar, there's no way around it. I think the way they did it, let anyone who knows the suspect's identity know... we are onto you.

IF in fact CE was there (there's no denying his uncanny resemblance to sketch #1), that perhaps shines some light on his social media obsession with the case. Just because he has committed some crimes himself doesn't mean he'd be immune to the normal human reaction of "whoa - I can't believe I was on the trails while this was happening." He perhaps didn't come forward as a witness because of his own run-ins with the law, but maybe he did shed some light once arrested for unrelated reasons in the months leading up to this recent press conference.

Now this could make sense. It could explain why the 2 BG's are different people... and why the original BG has been cleared. Perhaps CE backed up the 2nd BG sketch's witness.... that's certainly another idea.

I am thinking that, once he got close, at least one of them knew who he was.....recognized him.

That is not the same as saying that either one of them knew him.

And, I agree with your first sentence. If they knew him, others in their circle would likely know him as well, and this case would be long-solved. I say this without any knowledge of how big of a circle they had....but, with one in the band, and another playing sports, it had to have some size to it

See and I keep thinking that these girls were not your average girls. I think if they knew him, I think they'd say something identifying. Call him by name if they knew his name. Or if they just knew OF him, "oh crap it's that creepy car salesman" or something that would have given LE a clue. They were smart enough to record after all...

 

[tresir2012]

LE didn't even believe the girls were in danger, that's why they didn't search through the night. They definitely didn't believe they had been abducted and were in grave danger. There was zero chance they were going to issue an Amber Alert.

No, the Amber Alert would not have helped in this situation. There wouldn't have been any additional resources there before morning. The girls were dead within an hour and were not driven to another location, so nobody would have recognized them with their abductor.

The Amber Alert is designed for confirmed abductions, preferably with a license plate, vehicle description and abductor description. It is used for stranger abductions, like the 8 year old in Texas.

There are exceptions made on the vehicle policy... if a child is abducted from a house where the remaining occupants are slaughtered, or they are witnessed being abducted with a weapon... they are likely to issue the Amber Alert anyway. Jamie Closs, Sarah Maynard, the Groene kids and Elizabeth Smart are examples of Amber Alerts with almost no other information.

Lizzy and Lyric were younger than Abby and Libby but no Amber Alert was issued there either. It didn't meet the criteria.






It's also possible that they did know if he was in the room, but didn't want anyone else to know they knew that for sure. Think about what the reaction would have been if he had said "and he's in this room right now."

That wasn't going to work. I think he wanted to freak the suspect out but not cause him to do anything crazy if he was in the room (like shoot the place up.)

Also if they said he was in the room, they admit they know who he is and the public comes after LE for not arresting him already. That would have caused an enormous uproar, there's no way around it. I think the way they did it, let anyone who knows the suspect's identity know... we are onto you.




Now this could make sense. It could explain why the 2 BG's are different people... and why the original BG has been cleared. Perhaps CE backed up the 2nd BG sketch's witness.... that's certainly another idea.




See and I keep thinking that these girls were not your average girls. I think if they knew him, I think they'd say something identifying. Call him by name if they knew his name. Or if they just knew OF him, "oh crap it's that creepy car salesman" or something that would have given LE a clue. They were smart enough to record after all...

I still think LE could have interpreted the situation and called the Amber alert and issued the descriptions of the two girls immediately and I am amazed the Iowa case didn't call one either.

Re a possible second perp on the trail and discounted by LE, I cannot see that as being likely.

Re knowing him, if it was just a SC contact, they may not have known what he looked like, so I think this was a likely possibility, and the most plausible scenario. What if he said "Guys, I'm who you're meeting, let's go down the hill"
Makes my blood run cold thinking that.

AJMO

 

[tresir2012]

Mystery deepens as officials search for 'key' in girls' murders

Hadn't seen this article before.

"Walsh said it's likely the killer is "very close to the investigation" and is likely "trying to take the temperature of the investigators to determine what they know and how hot on his trail they are."

"It's not unlikely he could have been a volunteer in the search" for the girls that first day they went missing, Walsh added."

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

The perp will meet his maker one day, despite all this sad human ineffectualness. And when he does, he'll be hurled howling into Hell

Link please?

 

[tresir2012]

Link please?

Carters words maybe?

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

LE didn't even believe the girls were in danger, that's why they didn't search through the night. They definitely didn't believe they had been abducted and were in grave danger. There was zero chance they were going to issue an Amber Alert.

No, the Amber Alert would not have helped in this situation. There wouldn't have been any additional resources there before morning. The girls were dead within an hour and were not driven to another location, so nobody would have recognized them with their abductor.

The Amber Alert is designed for confirmed abductions, preferably with a license plate, vehicle description and abductor description. It is used for stranger abductions, like the 8 year old in Texas.

There are exceptions made on the vehicle policy... if a child is abducted from a house where the remaining occupants are slaughtered, or they are witnessed being abducted with a weapon... they are likely to issue the Amber Alert anyway. Jamie Closs, Sarah Maynard, the Groene kids and Elizabeth Smart are examples of Amber Alerts with almost no other information.

Lizzy and Lyric were younger than Abby and Libby but no Amber Alert was issued there either. It didn't meet the criteria.






It's also possible that they did know if he was in the room, but didn't want anyone else to know they knew that for sure. Think about what the reaction would have been if he had said "and he's in this room right now."

That wasn't going to work. I think he wanted to freak the suspect out but not cause him to do anything crazy if he was in the room (like shoot the place up.)

Also if they said he was in the room, they admit they know who he is and the public comes after LE for not arresting him already. That would have caused an enormous uproar, there's no way around it. I think the way they did it, let anyone who knows the suspect's identity know... we are onto you.




Now this could make sense. It could explain why the 2 BG's are different people... and why the original BG has been cleared. Perhaps CE backed up the 2nd BG sketch's witness.... that's certainly another idea.




See and I keep thinking that these girls were not your average girls. I think if they knew him, I think they'd say something identifying. Call him by name if they knew his name. Or if they just knew OF him, "oh crap it's that creepy car salesman" or something that would have given LE a clue. They were smart enough to record after all...

Good post.

I do worry that the section/paragraph of the April Press Conf that you refer to and the appeal to the Perp's Christian sense of right/guilt, along with the 'we know it's about power for you...' etc is so blatantly taken from a textbook on behavioural profiling and unrelated to any sure knowledge of an individual/s they have in their sights. Moo

 

[MsFacetious]

If the girls were posed in some way, I wonder if he took pictures of his work? I know it's never been said whether they were "displayed" or not. But I'm kind of getting that impression from the press conferences. I wonder if he took something with him as a trophy...

 

[tresir2012]

Good post.

I do worry that the section/paragraph of the April Press Conf that you refer to and the appeal to the Perp's Christian sense of right/guilt, along with the 'we know it's about power for you...' etc is so blatantly taken from a textbook on behavioural profiling and unrelated to any sure knowledge of an individual/s they have in their sights. Moo

I wonder about that too. I don't believe anyone who murders two teen girls has any religion, guilt, or regrets about this at all. A callous, uncaring piece of garbage.

 

[TL4S]

I think this is from the Dr. Phil Show. Anyway, IMO, this indicates that the girls were found where they were killed, and not moved or posed. JMO

The murdered teenagers’ bodies were found side-by-side at the bottom of a hill the next afternoon.

“The girls stuck together right up ‘til the end,” says Mike.

Murdered Indiana Girls’ Families Describe Search Efforts The Day Their Teens Disappeared

 

[Jamie737]

I understand the find-site is pretty unique. It is not visible from the bridge, or from the riverbank or trail. This must mean very intimate knowledge of the site. So, RL must be the key to identifying those people who knows his property well. That feels like a manageable group to "cover".

I've also been wondering about the white object in the jacket. Personally I think it is rope (because the outline seems flexible and the bulk is low). I know the rumours about the COD. Does anyone know if hanging has ever been posited as a potential COD in any reliable source?

 

[tresir2012]

I think this is from the Dr. Phil Show. Anyway, IMO, this indicates that the girls were found where they were killed, and not moved or posed. JMO

The murdered teenagers’ bodies were found side-by-side at the bottom of a hill the next afternoon.

“The girls stuck together right up ‘til the end,” says Mike.

Murdered Indiana Girls’ Families Describe Search Efforts The Day Their Teens Disappeared

I'm not sure that means they weren't placed that way by the murderer though, necessarily. Carter says they are not how he left them so that is to be considered too. E.g the murderer left them side by side therefore? Difficult to imagine they were murdered where they lay.
AJMO