Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[gregjrichards]

Why does nearly every post assume Libby to be the target?

I don’t believe Libby was the target I have always believed Abigail was the target since she looked very young for her age. I still think Liberty was killed first because she fought hard for her life and was much stronger. I’m sure Abigail fought hard as well but she would not have had the strength to fight against him. He may have been covered up a great deal but I am sure his dna must have been under one of the girls fingernails or something. There is no way he would have been able to prevent forensic evidence being left from him during what must have been a frantic violent attack. I always remember Sgt Carter say directly to him during the press conference that “you made mistakes” I still think it is these mistakes that are going to be his undoing.

 

[mtnlites]

Probably a really dumb question but what do you mean by catfished? I don’t think I ever heard the term

It simply means portaying yourself as one thing online (age, gender, picture of someone else as your profile, etc), when reality is a different story. ie., on WS you tell us that you are a middle-aged female attorney when, in reality, you are a 17 yo male. There is a very famous documentary by Nev Schulman and an insanely popular MTV show about catfishing.

 

[mtnlites]

I think this was a completely random attack and he'd never seen either girl until that day. I also don't have any trouble believing that they didn't scream or make noise. Polly Klass was a random victim. He knew he wanted to hurt a female victim that evening, but he didn't know Polly. He broke into her house and was able to tie up the 2 other teen girls and abduct Polly without any screaming from them. Her mother was across the hall. Brian Mitchell was able to abduct Elizabeth Smart with her parents just a few feet away and there was no screaming. Even smart (no pun intended) and mature kids can be frozen with terror when they're threstened with death.

BG didn't have to know that the girls were goung to be at the park that day. If he was familiar with it then he most likely knew that SOMEONE would be there. You will almost always run into someone if you hang around there long enough. I go there for quiet walks and photographing pretty scenery-not because I want to be alone. I always run into at least a couple of people unless I go really early in the morning.

Maybe it didn't matter who. He very well could have been driving by, or parked, and saw the girls go in. Maybe he was parked by the old building shooting something up and saw them dropped off. Or maybe he was out there rage walking and tweaking and just crossed paths with them. Or perhaps he WAS there stalking someone else, but changed course when he saw the girls.

I don't have a POI because without a COD or certain other pertinent info I think it could be almost anyone at this point. The OG sketch looked like most every middle-aged man I know around there, and now the new one looks like all the young guys. I am not sold on the electronic or catfish angle, though. Sure, he could have followed them electronically- but he could have just as easily seen them by chance.

 

[mtnlites]

My husband just watched a special on Polly Klass and, in his words, "I'm afraid that with all these big crime shows people are seeing some of these unsolved crimes as these huge, complicated mysteries with perps wearing disguises, extravagant electronic data, and threads of unknown connections that need to be found. In reality, it may really just be a random dumb guy who just got extremely lucky."

I think that may be why we often try to find connections to the victim-because accepting that the crime may have been totally random, and by a stranger, not only makes it harder to solve but must also make us admit that it could happen to us.

 

[Boxer]

My husband just watched a special on Polly Klass and, in his words, "I'm afraid that with all these big crime shows people are seeing some of these unsolved crimes as these huge, complicated mysteries with perps wearing disguises, extravagant electronic data, and threads of unknown connections that need to be found. In reality, it may really just be a random dumb guy who just got extremely lucky."

I think that may be why we often try to find connections to the victim-because accepting that the crime may have been totally random, and by a stranger, not only makes it harder to solve but must also make us admit that it could happen to us.

True. Like a car jumping a curb or lightening, a stranger murder can happen to anyone without warning and in a way that eliminates the ability to protect oneself.
Luckily only about 25% of murders are by strangers. But since 75% are by non-strangers, that angle always has to be eliminated due to the odds.
MOO this was someone on the edge of their social circle who did this and an alibi was provided by a family member or friend during early days while police were focusing on the Indiana Packers / transient angle.

The nationwide transient suspect search and old guy sketch would have made BG feel pretty safe until "you never thought we would change direction, but we have"

 

[tresir2012]

How do we suppose LE has ruled out the hundreds or more of tips for suspects etc over the years? Simply on alibis? Or do they have DNA and if so, why wouldn’t they test the DNA of this alleged person some of you seem to think they have in their “crosshairs”? I do not believe they would not have found a way to get the DNA in all this time. Not do I think they had a suspect at the time of the PC.

They have mentioned lie detectors but they have also swabbed for DNA and checked alibis (people at work etc).

 

[tresir2012]

Ok I think I figured it out. I got a little pop up this time that said the 360 wasn't supported by my browser. I tried my other browser and got the same pop up message on that one also. I'm hoping new phone will be a better match. Thanks for all your help!

You could try deleting all your cookies and history. (In your settings) then instead of accessing via WS link, search for James Renner's website and load the episode up directly from that.

 

[tresir2012]

Coming into this case only since March I’ve wondered the same. I think it’s because she is known to have had a rather extensive social media presence. I don’t know that she was particularly active on all the sites, but she did have quite a few accounts (FB, more than one twitter, instagram, kik, tic toc, etc). I don’t believe Abby was as much a part of the social media scene. Granted, this seems to be rationale for the crime being targeted, and having something to do with social media (which I personally do for the time being).

That’s the only reason I can think of, but perhaps there are others, and I’d be interested to hear.

Do you have a link to Libby's other Twitters? (You said more than one Twitter)

 

[tresir2012]

JMO
I believe that is exactly what they had to do. From March 2017 ( and I don't think that much has changed in the interim.)

Police corroborating alibis given in Delphi killings

“We’re going deeper with alibis that are provided,” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said. “Part of the reason … we have learned of people who have lied to us on the alibi.”

From the same article

"They’re seeing that maybe there are some discrepancies going on," Riley said about rechecking the alibis.“It’s just making sure we don’t miss something.”

For example, a team of investigators pore over the leads from the phone tip line — 844-459-5786 — and the email tip address — abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com. This team discards tips that already have been cleared and assigns investigators to follow up on new leads, Riley said.

Those investigators file reports after interviewing people, Riley said. Those reports, in turn, are read by other investigators, who often suggest there might be holes, omissions, lies or unasked questions. This sends the investigators back into the field for followup and more reports.

I think that BG was so covered up that there may not be usable DNA. JMO


ETA an additional article
Police continue investigation of several ‘people of interest’ a month into Delphi murder investigation
of-interest-a-month-into-delphi-murder-investigation/

Investigators have served approximately 70 search warrants and subpoenas, some as far away as Peru in Miami County, and checked on the probation status of dozens of sex offenders, many of whom were cleared as suspects in the murders based on interviews, alibis or polygraph examinations.

This bit is what concerns me -

This team discards tips that already have been cleared and assigns investigators to follow up on new leads, Riley said.

Looks like a recipe for possible mistakes.

Eg. A tip on someone comes in who has been previously cleared, yet the tip has new info that is overlooked.
"Oh yeah Joe Blogs- he was cleared by his friend's alibi last week."

 

[tresir2012]

This case, Delphi girls, is so very much in the headlines, and every agency in the would would chip in and speed the dna testing thru, in my opinion. I also wonder if quantity of dna will give age but not identity, and that’s where the new age comes from?

Not sure it is about money but more about backlog. Re age, I think there is new technology that may be able to do this but the new sketch was explained by LE as being done by a sketch artist and witness only 2 days after the murders. For some reason we do not know about, it was put to one side.

 

[tresir2012]

... the new sketch was explained by LE as being done by a sketch artist and witness only 2 days after the murders. For some reason we do not know about, it was put to one side.

This team discards tips that already have been cleared and assigns investigators to follow up on new leads, Riley said. A tip comes in on person previously cleared, yet the tip has new info that is overlooked. "Oh yeah Joe Blogs- cleared by friend's alibi last week."

Snipping and quoting my last two answers due to sudden light bulb moment. This could well be the reason the YBG sketch was discounted early on.

 

[tresir2012]

It simply means portaying yourself as one thing online (age, gender, picture of someone else as your profile, etc), when reality is a different story. ie., on WS you tell us that you are a middle-aged female attorney when, in reality, you are a 17 yo male. There is a very famous documentary by Nev Schulman and an insanely popular MTV show about catfishing.

The recent Sydney Loofe murder trial revealed an example of this luring of a victim as well. (Unusually this one was a woman, luring another woman on Tinder for murder by a man with her own involvement not yet come to trial)

 

[tresir2012]

Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

From the report:

"Around one-fifth of adult male victims (104 males, 22%) were killed by strangers, compared with around one in eleven female victims (14 females, 9%)."

This is England and Wales but shows with females, only 9% are killed by strangers.

Re the US,

Killed by a Stranger: A Rare Event, but a Rising Fear

This article mentions 11% killed by strangers so statistically this crime is more likely to be someone not a stranger to the girls, and someone local and young according to BG.

From that link

"In 2014, homicides involving strangers represented 11 percent of the nationwide total included in the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program, although in many more cases than that, the relationship between victim and killer was marked “unknown.”

An examination of the homicides in the city this year in which the authorities have either made arrests or identified suspects yielded fewer than 15 that, based on facts reported at the time and in court records later, appeared to be stranger murders.

When two cases involving people killed in their workplaces were removed from the list, along with two others in which the victims were struck by stray bullets, the list of apparent stranger murders fell closer to 10."

 

[mtnlites]

We do a lot of comparisons to the Iowa girls, but there are also similarities with the Scott Erksine Jonathan Sellers/Charlie Keever case. In that one 2 young boys (9, 13) went for a bike ride in a local wooded park. They stumbled upin Scott Erskine by chance. He had raped and killed another woman years earlier. Obviously it isn't the same guy, but it's another case where 2 children were murdered (and sexually assaulted, though we don't know that in this case) in a wooded park by one man in one random act of violence. No electronic trail. He hadn't stalked them, didn't know them, and had no idea they'd be there.

 

[TL4S]

Did you also notice that ISP Carter, when talking to the killer, kept looking to his right?

I did not see a match to the face I was looking for.

BBM/SBM

I think it's our nature to suspect specific individuals in these cases. It makes it easier to try to fit the pieces together. But IMO, without being open to other possibilities, we may completely overlook the real killer because we're focused so hard on someone else.

Do I have suspects in mind? Sure. Is it possible it's someone still unknown to all of us? Sure. As @mtnlites pointed out, we don't have all the pertinent information that LE does. And maybe with all the information LE possesses, even they don't have a suspect yet that fits. JMO

 

[TL4S]

We do a lot of comparisons to the Iowa girls, but there are also similarities with the Scott Erksine Jonathan Sellers/Charlie Keever case. In that one 2 young boys (9, 13) went for a bike ride in a local wooded park. They stumbled upin Scott Erskine by chance. He had raped and killed another woman years earlier. Obviously it isn't the same guy, but it's another case where 2 children were murdered (and sexually assaulted, though we don't know that in this case) in a wooded park by one man in one random act of violence. No electronic trail. He hadn't stalked them, didn't know them, and had no idea they'd be there.

As scary as it is, I think some of these crimes are simply done because a certain situation, or a certain person, triggers a sick individual and it's really hard to defend yourself against a triggered sick individual.

 

[tresir2012]

If he is a stranger, which I doubt, then he is a local, but perhaps little known to the girls. I think he knew them, that is what I think and mean by targeted.

Also, why are LE saying he is local and constantly saying look at his mannerisms, look at his walk, someone recognizes him, he's hiding in plain sight. None of these indicate a stranger do they?

 

[TL4S]

If he is a stranger, which I doubt, then he is a local, but perhaps little known to the girls. I think he knew them, that is what I think by targeted.

Also, why are LE saying he is local and constantly saying look at his mannerisms, look at his walk, someone recognizes him, he's hiding in plain sight. None of these indicate a stranger do they?

None of that indicates someone the girls knew, either. Or even someone who knew the girls. Those things are directed towards the public as a whole, IMO, specifically that someone who might recognize the killer.

And they could have been targeted, as far as BG saw them that day and then decided to do something with them, whatever his motive was. It's frightening.

 

[tresir2012]

We do a lot of comparisons to the Iowa girls, but there are also similarities with the Scott Erksine Jonathan Sellers/Charlie Keever case. In that one 2 young boys (9, 13) went for a bike ride in a local wooded park. They stumbled upin Scott Erskine by chance. He had raped and killed another woman years earlier. Obviously it isn't the same guy, but it's another case where 2 children were murdered (and sexually assaulted, though we don't know that in this case) in a wooded park by one man in one random act of violence. No electronic trail. He hadn't stalked them, didn't know them, and had no idea they'd be there.

So you think they were just unlucky and came across a random killer at the end of the bridge that day? Yet he is local or previously local to Delphi? So someone hiding in plain sight who is a secret murderer?

Hardest one to crack for sure. Someone without any record or DNA on file. 18-40 age.

 

[tresir2012]

None of that indicates someone the girls knew, either. Or even someone who knew the girls. Those things are directed towards the public as a whole, IMO, specifically that someone who might recognize the killer.

I just don't buy it that someone nobody knew was hanging and wandering around there with so many people about. LE think this too by their recent PC "may be in this room". At the very least he had help to get away IMO.