OH - 9 killed + Gunman, 16 injured, Mass Shooting, Oregon District, Dayton, 4 Aug 2019

[Reasonable & Just]

My laptop messed up and I was only able to hear bits and pieces of this News Conference. What I did hear sounds like these steps might help. If anyone has time to watch I'd love to hear your opinions. If Ohio can take these steps and they're effective, then maybe other states could try. Starts @ 24:00

I admire how concrete and specific they are being, and their acknowledgment that the old fights don't lead to results, and that there are limits to what a state can do, but they'll do what they can. This kind of problem-solving and maturity in public servants seems rare today. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

 

[enelram]

After 18, pretty difficult to "make" anyone address their mental health with a professional. Whether parents did or didn't doesn't matter much, because at 24, he made a decision. He was legally an adult, and chose his own path.

But if my son is living in my home and I believe
he has serious issues that need the help of a professional, wouldn't I as a mother or father
be able to insist on him getting treatment.
As a condition of living in my home and me paying his expenses and feeding him and providing a car which I own, wouldn't that be leverage to exert some control over him?

I read that when he was arrested in 2016 for
DWI, and held overnight, it was his friend Chace (who was shot) who was called to sign
him out of jail and vow to be responsible for him.
Had his parents washed their hands of him?
Wasn't it their vehicle he was driving while
drunk?
Did they know about this DWI? Surely their
insurance co. would be notified.
There were just so many red flags with this guy
I'm truly flummoxed how normal people close to him just put their heads in the sand.
There's outrage by his fellow students in high school that his problems were not properly addressed back then. One even called him
a Psychopath.

 

[Jackalyn]

good questions-
It seems to me that the first line of defense would be friends and family. But as we see so
often, they may be in denial that there's actual
problems other than weirdness or strangeness.

Someone mentioned earlier maybe he was
"schizo" since that usually starts to show symptoms around puberty or a little later for
stronger symptoms. He did have many symptoms according to his friends.
But unless he had a fairly recent mental diagnosis from a professional I doubt that will be discussed publicly.
Once a person turns 18, I doubt there is any
long term mental health that can be forced
on them unless they're deemed a threat to
themselves or others. And usually that's just
a short term fix like a few days in a hospital.

I'm still waiting for the family to make a statement on what they believe happened here.
Or maybe they never will. There's such denial
in admitting mental issues, but we see so many
common behaviors in these mass shooters.
Or maybe it's because we WS'ers read and study them more than average.

Just a thought. If someone with mental health issues uses recreational drugs then here the mental health professionals will hold off a lot of treatment as they do not want to prescribe medication. If even a minor will not cooperate with therapy there is little anyone can do in this case.

 

[Inthedetails]

If he was there in the area with his sister and friend earlier in the night before they split up, wouldn’t he know there was heavy police presence? I would think that would be a deterrent.

Snipped

I don't think the police presence would be a deterrent....if he wanted to die by being shot by a cop. That is a goal of some of the shooters. Perhaps he picked that location because police would be there on a weekend night.

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

This is what Colion Nior stated. He said we do this for terrorist, why can’t we do the same thing for these mass shooters? Who IMO are also terrorists.

I learned last night while listening to some news coverage that the legal charge of "terrorism" has very specific requirements. Simply killing a bunch of people doesn't necessarily fall under the legal definition of terrorism (though, of course, it is terrifying).

jmo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Dayton killer's gun was legally purchased inside the US, just like the guns of Gilroy and El Paso killers.

Some El Paso victims did come through the southern border, but probably didn't bring any illegal guns or drugs.

It wouldnt matter either way.

It's obvious these obsessed mass murderers will find away to obtain a weapon whether legally or illegally on the streets which are easily obtainable since illegally obtained weapons are used to commit far more violent firearm homicides, and injuries.

Many murderers have turned out to be ex felons. Did it prevent them from obtaining one illegally? Absolutely not.

Anyone hellbent on doing mass murder or murder of anyone will find weapons to carry them out just like they always do.

Just like the guy in an Ohio mall stabbed 10 before a legally armed citizen stopped him in his tracks.

Guns on the streets are cheap, and easily purchased by those who know they cant obtain one legally.

Although those with criminal intent all they have to do is pay a straw man or woman without a criminal background history to purchase the weapon legally for them.

There is no way to stop anyone from getting a weapon if that is their intent to get one. Far more mass shootings have involved handguns rather than long guns.

In the inner cities which results in thousands being shot every year are shot with illegally obtained handguns.

But sadly no one seems to care as much about illegally obtained weapons which are killing many thousands each year... with thousands more injured with one.

I wish people obsessed as much about getting the millions of illegal firearms off the streets, and out of communities as they do about changing gun control laws for over 150 million law abiding gunowners. Especially when the overwhelming vast majority of them never harm a soul, and have actually saved many lives including saving police officers who were caught in a crossfire with criminals.

Jmho

 

[Reasonable & Just]

My laptop messed up and I was only able to hear bits and pieces of this News Conference. What I did hear sounds like these steps might help. If anyone has time to watch I'd love to hear your opinions. If Ohio can take these steps and they're effective, then maybe other states could try. Starts @ 24:00

Just wanted to add that I once worked with a circle of highly intelligent people who took great pride in their "Ohio pragmatism". I can see why, watching this video. Show us how it's done, Buckeye state!

 

[danzn16]

My laptop messed up and I was only able to hear bits and pieces of this News Conference. What I did hear sounds like these steps might help. If anyone has time to watch I'd love to hear your opinions. If Ohio can take these steps and they're effective, then maybe other states could try. Starts @ 24:00

I do agree we need more action when someone is perceived as a threat. I also really like they are using technology to target people which I feel is key. A lot of these recommendations sound like positive changes that are not so radical to make people angry in either political side. You can not argue taking away guns from mentally ill people. You can not argue against increased mental health treatments and evals. However the entire country need to plan how to create more psychiatrists, more resources to mental health treatments. And that is the difficult part.

 

[danzn16]

Snipped

I don't think the police presence would be a deterrent....if he wanted to die by being shot by a cop. That is a goal of some of the shooters. Perhaps he picked that location because police would be there on a weekend night.

jmo

However it makes your body count lower and I feel like this is always a major goal for these shooters. You’re going to end up getting killed if you don’t surrender, whether that takes 30 seconds or if there aren’t cops around and it ends up taking 15 min for response time like many locations. He may not have the mental ability to even think this far since it seems like he was probably teetering on psychosis for most of 2019 from friends reports.

 

[danzn16]

I learned last night while listening to some news coverage that the legal charge of "terrorism" has very specific requirements. Simply killing a bunch of people doesn't necessarily fall under the legal definition of terrorism (though, of course, it is terrifying).

jmo

I’ll have to look up those requirements cause I have no idea what they are. But time to make some changes to them it sounds like! If this isn’t terrorissm I don’t know what is.

 

[Inthedetails]

I’ll have to look up those requirements cause I have no idea what they are. But time to make some changes to them it sounds like! If this isn’t terrorissm I don’t know what is.

Post it here when you learn. I was listening to news coverage and didn't write down any details as I listened (though I got dinner made!).

Tia.

jmo

 

[crhedBngr]

Following.

 

[Betty P]

I learned last night while listening to some news coverage that the legal charge of "terrorism" has very specific requirements. Simply killing a bunch of people doesn't necessarily fall under the legal definition of terrorism (though, of course, it is terrifying).

jmo

How the USA PATRIOT Act redefines "Domestic Terrorism"

"A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism."

<modsnip - gun control comment>

 

[Tillicum]

Here's just a few points he made (to stay in copyright TOS). There is a lot more at the link. I'm hoping to find the list on a government site so we can C&P the entire list.

DeWine also says money in the new state budget will be used provide “wraparound services” to put mental health professionals in schools and telemedicine.

DeWine also called for tougher penalties for felons who use a gun when committing a felony.

The governor also wants to crack down on sales. He called for tougher penalties on “straw purchases.” He also wants to increase the penalty for those who purchase guns for kids and make it punishable by up to 3 years in prison.

Gov. DeWine calls for lawmakers to pass red-flag law, stronger background checks to fight gun violence

 

[enelram]

can anyone answer:
MSM says the gun was purchased online from
Texas where it was shipped to a local gun dealer
and was modified after purchase.
Who modified it?
Why wasn't it shipped to CB's home directly?
Did he sneak it into his parents' home?

 

[Jax49]

can anyone answer:
MSM says the gun was purchased online from
Texas where it was shipped to a local gun dealer
and was modified after purchase.
Who modified it?
Why wasn't it shipped to CB's home directly?
Did he sneak it into his parents' home?

Can I buy a gun online?
Yes, you can purchase a gun online just like any other product. The only difference is that we cannot ship a firearm directly to you. A firearm must be shipped to a licensed firearms dealer, where you can pick it up.

bbm
How to Buy a Gun Online | Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore

 

[kiaatcher]

can anyone answer:
MSM says the gun was purchased online from
Texas where it was shipped to a local gun dealer
and was modified after purchase.
Who modified it?
Why wasn't it shipped to CB's home directly?
Did he sneak it into his parents' home?

His gun was an AR15, right?
My dad was able to order all of his AR15 directly to the house, except for the lower receiver, which was shipped to the gun store and required a background check.

 

[Gardenista]

can anyone answer:
MSM says the gun was purchased online from
Texas where it was shipped to a local gun dealer
and was modified after purchase.
Who modified it?
Why wasn't it shipped to CB's home directly?
Did he sneak it into his parents' home?

Shipped to local gun dealer because that is the law.
He probably modified it himself.

 

[Inthedetails]

How the USA PATRIOT Act redefines "Domestic Terrorism"

"A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism."

Interesting note about the civil asset forfeiture for domestic terrorists and those who support their activities. Would it be possible for the federal government to seize the assets of the individuals and companies who sell weapons and ammunition to these people?

Thank you for looking that up. I think the definition will come in handy when we discuss these cases (though I would be very pleased never to have cases like this again to discuss!).

So, if a killer is angry and kills a bunch of people with the intention of simply displaying anger, or if a killer targets a specific group like women, ethnic group, etc. then that is not terrorism (even if terrifying) under the legal definition because the elements in the legal definition are not present.

jmo

jmo

 

[rsd1200]

Might have been the El Paso shooter. I do remember reading one of their fathers bought them a gun.

El Paso legally purchased his.