CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

[MsMiniSleuth]

If someone snatched her, why would the only motive be robbery? I just want to note for the record that older women can be victims of sexual crimes as well.

I don't think she was snatched by a loony tune for sex or money or anything else. Not a random, anyway. What would be the chances in an area such as that, that precisely at the same time as she disappears from RT's view, someone is driving along, spots her and within...seconds...or very few minutes at least, has grabbed her and made off, he too then disappearing from sight. No, way too much of a fantastical coincidence.

If she was abducted there, then they were either followed from where they *perhaps* stopped off for provisions en route, and someone thought fancy trailer, must be some money there, and followed them but something went wrong when they got her.

Or, it was pre-planned.

Or, she was disposed of elsewhere by either a POI or another.

All MOO.

 

[dspdenver]

That's correct if you believe the account RT gave to family. According to what SBCSO has shared, BT went missing about 2:30 p.m. I can only presume that is based on what RT told them since he was the last person to see her. ? MOO

I wonder if the VI's sister could have been mistaken about the time RT gave in his phone call? The sister did question the accuracy of her own memory in that text message, so could RT have said it was getting really hot in the "afternoon," so then he called 911? As another poster mentioned, easy to confuse "at noon" with "afternoon."

The text message said it was a long, chronological accounting by RT of that day, but the noon 911 call and police arriving two hours later was the only specific reference to time of day (plus a morning 360 photo by BT on a hill, but was that at their walk area or somewhere else?)

I'd be interested to know if that chronology given by RT of what they did in the morning matched a noon 911 call (for example, they pulled over around 10:30 for a walk, half hour later she was missing, he searched an hour or so, then called 911) or if the 2:30 PM "afternoon" SBCSO missing time made more sense in relation to the rest of his chronology (i.e, they stopped for breakfast along the way, then a couple times for roadside pictures, had some lunch, then decided to pull over for a walk, missing in the afternoon, searched an hour, called 911.)

 

[Kapua]

Ref the Media thread, page 1 post #10 by PommyMommy; she posted the Dispatch Log there:

AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*

IMHO, that's the best time corroboration we have for the 911 call so far. It says 3:26.

According to Google Maps, it takes ~1 hour and 44 minutes to drive from Bullhead City, AZ to Kelbaker Rd, CA.

Google Maps

I'll give them 2 hours in case they stopped for gas, drove slowly, etc.. (my guesswork)

Given a start time of ~8:30 per the neighbor, that puts them at Kelbaker Rd. at ~10:30AM. (my guesswork)

Taking a leisurely stroll (~total 2.2 miles out and back on a clear trail) out to take pics of some uninteresting (IMHO) rocks in the middle of nowhere - I give them an hour, which puts us at ~11:30AM. (my guesswork)

That leaves us with ~FOUR HOURS of unaccounted-for time (according to my guesswork as stated above).

I am pretty sure that LE has a better idea of the timeline, but that's what I have so far. MOO and please correct me if you think I am way off.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm

LE said they have photos of Barb on the 12th, and they do believe Barb was there. LE have not shared much else with me.

As far as I know LE have NOT released any photos from that day. I don't know why they haven't, but at this point, like you @Micheline, i dont think it matters.

LE have the photos, as well as bodycam footage on the day. They have roberts initial statements and they scoured the surrounding area for ten days.

whether she was wearing bikini or underwear.... irrelevant to me. hat color also of little consequence to me. There may be very talented sleuths here who can make a lot out of those details.

i didnt even think to ask the kennel what she was wearing. i am looking for motive, including backstory. because, imo, Barbara could not have gotten lost where robbie claims they were, and she could not have been abducted without robert knowing, based on his own accounts.

my own opinion.

somebody has been lying to me about what happened on july 12th.

@dbdb11, I suspect others have similar opinions. I'm guessing you have supported reasoning behind your opinion, while others do not have the luxury of your unique perspective. Thank you.

LE believes BT and RT were located where RT stated.

LE has been given photographs that show BT but where / when were they taken that day?

Were the photographs in question (what LE has been given) taken during the hike and how far away were they from the turnout?

Were they taken around the rock formations locations, farther along (westward) in the open desert or closer to the 'hidden camp' area northwest of the larger formation?

LE does not believe BT was "abducted" because it's a remote area and there is no evidence of that so what's left?

I do not have the option to peruse the location in question so I have to rely on Google Earth and wing it. It does not seem likely BT would have 'gotten lost' within the seemingly short distance between the rock formations and the turnout. It is possible but what makes me lean away from that possibility is BT, according to RT, was "carrying a beer"... why wasn't the beer/container found on the road/turnout at the point of "abduction"? Was it a cordial abduction, no force or struggle required? "Oh, you want to take me away from my husband out here in the open desert? Sure, no struggle from me, where do I sit? Want a sip?"

Are we left with only mine entrances/shafts, subsidence and related geological elements? Were ten days of on-foot, K9, vehicle and aerial-view searching enough to rule out this possibility (and also the 'gotten lost' possibility)? Ten days. Hours per day, multiplied by the number of participants? That's a lot of man-dog-land-air hours... all within relatively-open areas. There are no large treed forests, no densely-clustered structures or buildings but there are likely mine entrances, shaft breaches and/or other mine-related elements in the area (I do not know from experience, only from what I read).

Important points that haunt me:

1)--- Was anyone at the hidden camp area that day immediately before, during or immediately after the relative time frame? If so, have they been located and questioned by LE/anyone?

2)--- During RT's interviews why didn't he suggest BT may have fallen in to a mine shaft or other mine-related accidental breach area? He seemed to be singularly focused on BT being abducted while "crossing that road", and to be fair probably based on the direction he last saw her walking toward. But he also stated he "lost sight of her" which opens the possibility BT may nave strayed in a broader direction than what RT expected and maybe chanced upon a hole/mine shaft or other breach of the earth. AFAIK, RT never mentioned this possibility. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mine shaft vs. Abduction. Which is more likely, given probabilities and facts, such as population density of abduction-minded individuals, mine entrance locations, etc. Is it logical to assume abductors would more likely peruse desert locations for abduction-worthy prey? Also, how many people have 'gotten lost' in that specific location/area and were later recovered from a mine shaft?

 

[CSIDreamer]

Who is the other VI, or potential VI? What is their connection or field of expertise? I seem to have missed some posts...

There is no other VI. We have one which is @dbdb11 . Unless someone decides to become a VI I think we need to consider them on the same playing field as the rest of us. Both ways, perhaps.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Thank you fellow sleuthers for keeping the thread on track and not turning in to a hot mess! This is one of the few places on the internet that sticks to facts (as reported by LE, MSM or a VI), and is Victim friendly.

 

[LietKynes]

Who is the other VI, or potential VI? What is their connection or field of expertise? I seem to have missed some posts...

Since you asked...
There is only one verified insider at this time.
The other members -- incl. but not limited to this poster-- are simply giving their theories.

Kudos to those who have worked diligently on this thread and behind the scenes to try to find Barbara or what has happened to her !
Many thanks

Hoping for a break in Barbara's case soon.

 

[happyday]

I’ve been out of pocket traveling, but I’ve been trying to send Barbara’s story to different media, and I would encourage others to keep doing that as well. Whatever shows you watch and podcasts you listen to. Let them know about Barbara! I think it’s super important to keep her in the news. LE needs to feel some pressure that people care and aren’t going to give up on finding out what happened to Barbara! MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Okay, and IIRC, he had spent at least some time searching for her before he had made that call, correct? Which makes it even earlier then, when she went missing. But yet the arrival time couldn't change much, based on the number of miles/speed limits. It narrows down the timelines. Just niggles at me to wonder if she was known to do that so early in the day, just kind of throws up a red flag for me about the narrative.

Except, of course, that SBCS dispatch says the call came in at 3:26 pm, not noon, and the "noon" comes from a phone call from RT to our VI's sister, who then told the story to the VI.

I'm going with the dispatch log. It was 3:26 when the 911 call was made, which means that RT was searching for from around 2:30 pm.

 

[Cherwell]

If I remember right, it really throws a wrench in the timeline. Per our VI, RT related he called 911 at noon. Per dispatch, he actually called 911 at 3:26 pm. Roughly 3 hours later. JMO.
ETA more like 3.5 hours later.

Can we clear this 12 noon issue up.
This I believe was conveyed to VI by his family in HK, but as about that time. It is a second-hand comment and is not verified, and again as far as I can recall RT did NOT state he phoned police at 12 as a fact.

Agreeing with @MsMiniSleuth
The explanation of the noon time could simply be one of the following:

1. RT, talking to VI's sister, made a slip of the tongue and said the wrong time.
2. VI's sister misheard what he said.
3. VI's sister misremembered what he said.

She did not know at the time that someone would ask her later exactly what was said. She did her best, but she may not have recalled every detail accurately.

 

[Tillicum]

Agreeing with @MsMiniSleuth
The explanation of the noon time could simply be one of the following:

1. RT, talking to VI's sister, made a slip of the tongue and said the wrong time.
2. VI's sister misheard what he said.
3. VI's sister misremembered what he said.

She did not know at the time that someone would ask her later exactly what was said. She did her best, but she may not have recalled every detail accurately.

I'm hoping our VI can ask his sister if it's possible she misheard or mis-remembered. I know for myself, when remembering previous conversations, there might be some things I'm not 100% sure I remember correctly and others that I'm certain, without a doubt was said. During the same conversation.

 

[10ofRods]

The photo in the red hat was not taken that day. (ETA: I may be wrong, because I am using the AG description - which...is wrong?)

Unless, of course, you disbelieve what the State Attorney General has to say about what Barbara was wearing:

Barbara Thomas

Presumably, the Sheriff used the most accurate information possible when they submitted her description to the Attorney General. She was wearing a white hat. I also assume that RT did not fail the part of the polygraph where he was asked what she was wearing (which surely he would be). At any rate, it was not a red hat, therefore, not the same day.

ETA: Apparently SBCS did not use the most accurate description possible. That's really concerning to me. Why the low priority on Barbara's case?

Apparently, her DL info says she's blonde and RT thinks she's (platinum?) blonde, whereas most of us would maybe say gray (perhaps she sometimes colors her hair - perhaps it was colored that day).

I guess the Sheriff could have submitted the wrong info to the AG, but that seems really odd and where would it have come from? Nope, I say she was wearing a white hat that day.

RT said "bikini" but the Sheriff reported to the AG "black bra and underwear." In other words, an impromptu bikini (or else that's just how the Sheriff's office reports such things). I am suppressing my further opinions about this wording, but it is notable.

ETA: NAMUS says red cap.

I do believe this discrepancy is significant. Not sure why both don't say "red and white" cap (unless it truly was one or the other). NAMUS also says "bikini" and not underwear (not significant, IMO). But seriously, if all LE in California are going by "white cap" and whoever put the record into NAMUS (family?) says "red cap," that's just not good.

 

[LietKynes]

This timing of the purported 911 is significant , as if the call wasn't made until the dispatch logs say they were -- at 3:26 ; then it leaves a large gap of time.

I'm supposing with the heat that Barbara wasn't out walking around without a break from when they arrived at Kelbaker rd. from 10 am, until 3pm. (give or take)
At some time they both would've headed to cool off for a bit in the fifth wheel.
If you have a new RV you're going to enjoy and use it whenever.
Imo.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm hoping our VI can ask his sister if it's possible she misheard or mis-remembered. I know for myself, when remembering previous conversations, there might be some things I'm not 100% sure I remember correctly and others that I'm certain, without a doubt was said. During the same conversation.

The context, IIRC, was that RT was telling the story in chronological order and said something like "And it was after noon and getting hot so I called 911." I do not remember the sister asking him specifically what time he called.

Misremembering, especially in the context of such an upsetting call, is very common. RT may even have lost track of time himself and thought it was earlier in the day. Still doesn't account for all the time since they left their house. I wish he had focused on such details in his two MSM interviews, to help us find Barbara (or her abductors), before he lawyered up.

 

[CSIDreamer]

What are the rules again for interacting with a VI. I know we can ask questions. But I'm not sure we're allowed to speculate or try to correct their information to "make sense" to us. I'm searching and having a heck of a time finding it. TIA.

 

[LAhiker]

The photo in the red hat was not taken that day. Unless, of course, you disbelieve what the State Attorney General has to say about what Barbara was wearing:

Barbara Thomas

Presumably, the Sheriff used the most accurate information possible when they submitted her description to the Attorney General. She was wearing a white hat. I also assume that RT did not fail the part of the polygraph where he was asked what she was wearing (which surely he would be). At any rate, it was not a red hat, therefore, not the same day.

Apparently, her DL info says she's blonde and RT thinks she's (platinum?) blonde, whereas most of us would maybe say gray (perhaps she sometimes colors her hair - perhaps it was colored that day).

I guess the Sheriff could have submitted the wrong info to the AG, but that seems really odd and where would it have come from? Nope, I say she was wearing a white hat that day.

RT said "bikini" but the Sheriff reported to the AG "black bra and underwear." In other words, an impromptu bikini (or else that's just how the Sheriff's office reports such things). I am suppressing my further opinions about this wording, but it is notable.

I agree that this represents the Sheriff's department's best understanding of what she was wearing, based on RT's account, and that that increases the likelihood that the photo with the (partly) red cap was not taken that day.

That said, if BT was indeed wearing a black bra on July 12, it may be similar to or the same as the black top in the photo, as some of us suspect that that may actually be a bra.

I want to repeat that the difference between a black bra and bikini briefs and an actual bikini swimsuit much less these days than it used to be. (Bikini and other swimsuit tops can have cups; briefs come in microfiber bikini styles...) So I wouldn't make too much of the whole "underwear" business.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I agree that this represents the Sheriff's department's best understanding of what she was wearing, based on RT's account, and that that increases the likelihood that the photo with the (partly) red cap was not taken that day.

That said, if BT was indeed wearing a black bra on July 12, it may be similar to or the same as the black top in the photo, as some of us suspect that that may actually be a bra.

I want to repeat that the difference between a black bra and bikini briefs and an actual bikini swimsuit much less these days than it used to be. (Bikini and other swimsuit tops can have cups; briefs come in microfiber bikini styles...) So I wouldn't make too much of the whole "underwear" business.

Yeah, but it seems the sheriff's department is making a deal of it. I wonder why?

 

[10ofRods]

@dbdb11 , for clarity please, when you say that LE has told you they have photos of Barb on the 12th, is it known with certainty if those photos are indeed at the search location?

Or could they be photos from earlier in the day, before they went on the walk? At home, along the way, or even at the parked RV? Or were they specifically from out along that trail?

Thanks if you can shed more light.

Second comment -- someone observed recently that the baseball cap in the photo looks like it has a red front panel and bill, but white panels on the side.

If true this could explain why a head-on photo shows a red cap, while anyone seeing her in profile might think of it as a white cap.

If this cap were seen on the ground I suspect both colors would be easily seen.

On the other hand there could also be two different caps.

This is a good point. In fact, it's such a good point that the SBCS should be asked to clarify. If it was a red and white cap, then the Attorney General's Missing Person alert should say that. Further, if the search people were told it was red (or white) when it was mostly white and only the bill was red, that's not good. People who hike in that direction and know of her disappearance are going to be looking for a spot of red (due both to how well it stands out and to the picture) when...it's mostly white, as is her hair.

White would harder to see out there. People who go out on ATV's and who take their drones will be looking for white, not red, if they go by the official information; red if they go by the picture. I assume the AG says "white" due to the fact that only a bit of red would be visible on the bill. Still, early on, the word "red" was used and people who've gone out there on their own to look may have been misled.

The picture has been so widely disseminated that I'm guessing everyone thinks her hat was red, and not just the bill of it.

 

[deugirtni]

Except, of course, that SBCS dispatch says the call came in at 3:26 pm, not noon, and the "noon" comes from a phone call from RT to our VI's sister, who then told the story to the VI.

I'm going with the dispatch log. It was 3:26 when the 911 call was made, which means that RT was searching for from around 2:30 pm.

I'm going with the dispatch log as well, since that is a professionally documented time. That does not mean however, that RT had only started searching from around 2:30pm, or that she went missing at a particular time. imo.

 

[LAhiker]

The context, IIRC, was that RT was telling the story in chronological order and said something like "And it was after noon and getting hot so I called 911." I do not remember the sister asking him specifically what time he called.

Misremembering, especially in the context of such an upsetting call, is very common. RT may even have lost track of time himself and thought it was earlier in the day. Still doesn't account for all the time since they left their house. I wish he had focused on such details in his two MSM interviews, to help us find Barbara (or her abductors), before he lawyered up.

Here again is @dbdb11's post which contains the message with his sister's recollection of the call:
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, Bullhead City, hiking wearing bikini in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019

Here is what she said, BBM:

hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can - robbie and said he needs to talk to daddy and that barbara’s missing. it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. the impression robbie gave me was that she was wearing a red cap, a bikini and carrying a travel cup with beer in it. they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area? or this was a regular thing? idk not sure but he continued searching for her on his own. by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her. robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. nothing. she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. also apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info.

robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear ..abc reached out? idk if it was abc but some mainstream news outlet and i definitely heard nancy grace mentioned. robbie’s done some interviews as he wants to get the word out. but he hasn’t seen or read any of the released news and comments. it’s too much

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. he also said it’s difficult to call into china and said his calls rarely go through so if we want to ask any questions or talk more we should call him.

A couple of things stand out to me.
1. As we've been discussing, in this account RT is searches for a while and then "around noon" starts to get worried and calls 911.
2. RT describes BT as wearing a red cap and bikini. So if the cap is actually white, then the eventual description does not match what he told the family. Of course, if it's partly red and partly white, then its predominant color might be a judgement call.

MOO