Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #16 *ARREST*

[Newthoughts]

I'm interested in what we can learn from this (I just revisited spidercam for first time in a while!)
Personally I think 1 min 40 seconds is about right in terms of getting to her persuading her to take his "help" and getting back to car
But regards spidercam not showing him park and leave.. I presumed that was because they just wanted to show the relevant bits public could help with ? What's your thinking?

Regards spidercam - my thinking is that its odd so perhaps it could show something LE don't want seen? It's edited to remove dead time where nothing happens anyway. The car arriving and him leaving it and locking it would add seconds to the footage.

Most of all I think the timings would be interesting.

From his first appearance in shot it looks like he'd walked some way towards the bench. It was frighteningly close after all. Was he out of shot long enough to have got to Beverley road and be seen by anyone driving past? Was he gone long enough to watch Libby and assess her vulnerability? Or long enough to cross the road and dump something like the hammer and screwdriver? Again a time frame to question had any passing motorist seen anything?

How long he was away from the car could be relevant couldn't it?

ITV says 20 minutes activity. It starts just after midnight with the car being unlocked and him appearing the rear of the car. It shows him sitting rolling a *advertiser censored* or something. It shows a car leaving and a bike. Then it shows him walking to where Libby was last seen. About 30 seconds away if that

I've not felt able to watch the footage of him returning but I think it finishes at about 10 past.

That leaves about 10 minutes unaccounted for. Though others could confirm that. Part of that would be taken with turning the car and parking but unless he's awful - that shouldn't be long.

For possibly 10 minutes we don't know what happened. If he just sat in his car why not say?. If he disappeared towards the bench - how long for? Did he have time to walk past Libby and seize up the situation? I think it's odd. JMO thought.

 

[Winterbells]

Regards spidercam - my thinking is that its odd so perhaps it could show something LE don't want seen? It's edited to remove dead time where nothing happens anyway. The car arriving and him leaving it and locking it would add seconds to the footage.

Most of all I think the timings would be interesting.

From his first appearance in shot it looks like he'd walked some way towards the bench. It was frighteningly close after all. Was he out of shot long enough to have got to Beverley road and be seen by anyone driving past? Was he gone long enough to watch Libby and assess her vulnerability? Or long enough to cross the road and dump something like the hammer and screwdriver? Again a time frame to question had any passing motorist seen anything?

How long he was away from the car could be relevant couldn't it?

ITV says 20 minutes activity. It starts just after midnight with the car being unlocked and him appearing the rear of the car. It shows him sitting rolling a *advertiser censored* or something. It shows a car leaving and a bike. Then it shows him walking to where Libby was last seen. About 30 seconds away if that

I've not felt able to watch the footage of him returning but I think it finishes at about 10 past.

That leaves about 10 minutes unaccounted for. Though others could confirm that. Part of that would be taken with turning the car and parking but unless he's awful - that shouldn't be long.

For possibly 10 minutes we don't know what happened. If he just sat in his car why not say?. If he disappeared towards the bench - how long for? Did he have time to walk past Libby and seize up the situation? I think it's odd. JMO thought.

I somehow think Greybeard got in the way and our perp had to delay approaching Libby by doing something else. It did look like he chucked something into the car before Libby got in. Perhaps he nipped into a shop opposite to buy something in order to avoid Greybeard and then once the coast was clear, went up to Libby. I know you can't watch the part where she's placed in the car, but it just doesn't look normal. We don't see her actually walking... just a very vague stationary shape that seems to swoon a bit before being lifted or bundled into the passenger seat. That's what it looks like to me, anyway. I don't believe she got into the car completely voluntarily.

And what a joke that he allegedly claims to have been so offended when she 'came onto' him, what with him being such a devoted and loyal husband and father.

 

[Newthoughts]

Nah, it's a good thing they got rid of the death penalty. It has no place in a civilised society IMO. But they do need to make sentences stronger. Life should always mean life in jail.

I agree with you 100%. The death penalty is barbaric and reduces the state to the same level as the killer.

25 years without parole...not a bad idea but if the criminals kill (even if he's a "first timer") he should get death. Nothing less.

I understand the emotion behind wanting the death penalty but I think the State has to be better than the scum that kills in cold blood. Otherwise we aren't civilized and we aren't better.

It is also unfair on police, prosectors, juries and witnesses to make them complicit in a death no matter how much the person deserves it. Jurors for example want justice not to be killers.

I've read so many crime novels written before it was abolished. Nearly every one the detective feels awful at sending someone to hang.

Then there is still the twin issues of miscarriages of Justice. Either an innocent person dies or a guilty one walks free because the levels of proof have to be set so high.

No doctor would do it in this country.

 

[Newthoughts]

I somehow think Greybeard got in the way and our perp had to delay approaching Libby by doing something else. It did look like he chucked something into the car before Libby got in. Perhaps he nipped into a shop opposite to buy something in order to avoid Greybeard and then once the coast was clear, went up to Libby. I know you can't watch the part where she's placed in the car, but it just doesn't look normal. We don't see her actually walking... just a very vague stationary shape that seems to swoon a bit before being lifted or bundled into the passenger seat. That's what it looks like to me, anyway. I don't believe she got into the car completely voluntarily.

And what a joke that he allegedly claims to have been so offended when she 'came onto' him, what with him being such a devoted and loyal husband and father.

From what we've heard I don't think she was capable of doing anything willingly. Freezing cold, distressed and very drunk. When I think of myself drunk at that age, or my kids or anyone - someone saying come on let's get you home and not giving you time to think would do it. Utter befuddlement.

Having so little empathy that you could coldly take advantage of someone that upset and vulnerable is just vile IMO

 

[nohopehere]

I agree with you 100%. The death penalty is barbaric and reduces the state to the same level as the killer.

I understand the emotion behind wanting the death penalty but I think the State has to be better than the scum that kills in cold blood. Otherwise we aren't civilized and we aren't better.

It is also unfair on police, prosectors, juries and witnesses to make them complicit in a death no matter how much the person deserves it. Jurors for example want justice not to be killers.

I've read so many crime novels written before it was abolished. Nearly every one the detective feels awful at sending someone to hang.

Then there is still the twin issues of miscarriages of Justice. Either an innocent person dies or a guilty one walks free because the levels of proof have to be set so high.

No doctor would do it in this country.

When you read stories in the paper or on the Internet about people being brutally murdered you are removed from the situation. You're not involved and not affected by it.
You can sit there and say "oh death penalty is so harsh...every life is precious..." but for someone who knew somebody who was personally murdered by a monster everything is different.
That's the reason why those detectives you were talking about felt awful at sending somebody to death...
If any of those anti-DP were in their shoes...there would be a different tune.
It's easier to talk when you're on the outside looking in.
Talking about "innocents" sentenced to death...well...imho there are very rare cases of somebody being sentenced to death that are actually innocent.

 

[JosieJo]

Regards spidercam if the car was there a total of 20 min as ITV say his car would have arrived around 11.48pm .. according to the timeline libby would have arrived at the bench area at 11.39pm approx ... it seems likely he drove passed her then drove around to that spot then spent that 10 min looking and deciding what to do

 

[motherofdaughters]

I guess that’s a personal opinion but I for one am pleased we don’t have the death penalty.

 

[motherofdaughters]

In that respect do you mean he had an accomplice?

I think his bizarre story to his sister is to explain her DNA on him so I think he will have laid his hands on her.

I think much rests on what we know we don't know. Why doesn't spidercam show him parking and leaving his car? Libby's bench is about 30 seconds from spidercam why is he away for as long as he is?

What is the significance of the scream mask? It doesn't appear in any of his known offences

No, I don’t think there’s an accomplice, I think he’s a loner and likes to wank (sorry I mean work) alone.
I still don’t think he has physically murdered her, it’s too big a jump. The only scenario I can see him physically harming her is in his car and that’s seemingly being ruled out.
I think she ran to her death somehow, wether being chased or they both ran in opposite directions.
I think he’s culpable but not in a murderous sense.

 

[Newthoughts]

When you read stories in the paper or on the Internet about people being brutally murdered you are removed from the situation. You're not involved and not affected by it.
You can sit there and say "oh death penalty is so harsh...every life is precious..." but for someone who knew somebody who was personally murdered by a monster everything is different.
That's the reason why those detectives you were talking about felt awful at sending somebody to death...
If any of those anti-DP were in their shoes...there would be a different tune.
It's easier to talk when you're on the outside looking in.
Talking about "innocents" sentenced to death...well...imho there are very rare cases of somebody being sentenced to death that are actually innocent.

I don't think the life of a killer is precious - I'm saying the state has to be better than the monster that kills in cold blood.

 

[DiploRed]

No, I don’t think there’s an accomplice, I think he’s a loner and likes to wank (sorry I mean work) alone.
I still don’t think he has physically murdered her, it’s too big a jump. The only scenario I can see him physically harming her is in his car and that’s seemingly being ruled out.
I think she ran to her death somehow, wether being chased or they both ran in opposite directions.
I think he’s culpable but not in a murderous sense.

No chance she ran to her death in my opinion. She'd never run into the fields area at midnight+ because there's no lighting and it's creepy as hell there at night. If he forced her to go in there then yes, it's possible but your theory is then solely based on your belief that he can't be a murderer because he doesn't seem like one, if you get what I mean? Because if he forced her into the fields for whatever reason, then there's a good possibility that he'd kill her intentionally or accidentally by strangulation or some kind of head injury.

Plus, after the post mortem and inquest, police were calling it "homicide" which suggests to me she had a head injury or something like that. If she had fell into the river I don't think they'd be calling it homicide.

 

[motherofdaughters]

No chance she ran to her death in my opinion. She'd never run into the fields area at midnight+ because there's no lighting and it's creepy as hell there at night. If he forced her to go in there then yes, it's possible but your theory is then solely based on your belief that he can't be a murderer because he doesn't seem like one, if you get what I mean? Because if he forced her into the fields for whatever reason, then there's a good possibility that he'd kill her intentionally or accidentally by strangulation or some kind of head injury.

Plus, after the post mortem and inquest, police were calling it "homicide" which suggests to me she had a head injury or something like that. If she had fell into the river I don't think they'd be calling it homicide.

No, I think he drove her there under whatever pretence.
The evidence we have doesn’t lead me to believe he killed her himself, with his own hands.
I think it’s likely he was responsible but seeing as we don’t have the information to substantiate murder, I’m trying to keep and open, subjective mind.
I think IF he gets charged, it wouldn’t be for murder, regardless what I believe.
I also never said he didn’t seem like a killer.

 

[Newthoughts]

Regards spidercam if the car was there a total of 20 min as ITV say his car would have arrived around 11.48pm .. according to the timeline libby would have arrived at the bench area at 11.39pm approx ... it seems likely he drove passed her then drove around to that spot then spent that 10 min looking and deciding what to do

His house to Haworth street is a short drive that doesn't bring him past where Libby was. They would approach the same point from opposite directions if he'd gone there from home.

So it's possible he didn't see her until he parked.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Regards spidercam if the car was there a total of 20 min as ITV say his car would have arrived around 11.48pm .. according to the timeline libby would have arrived at the bench area at 11.39pm approx ... it seems likely he drove passed her then drove around to that spot then spent that 10 min looking and deciding what to do

This is what i have always felt.

@Newthoughts raises good points again though, re the missing time on spidercam. Im not sure i had considered some of those questions and it could possibly add so much.

One more thought this evening re further victims, given that he appeared to prey on students/young women, often in the early hours and possibly (often?, no offence or connotations meant here, im just wondering) in drink and given the nature of his crimes. Is it possible that some of his victims may to this day be unaware or unable to recall his crimes.

 

[DiploRed]

No, I think he drove her there under whatever pretence.
The evidence we have doesn’t lead me to believe he killed her himself, with his own hands.
I think it’s likely he was responsible but seeing as we don’t have the information to substantiate murder, I’m trying to keep and open, subjective mind.
I think IF he gets charged, it wouldn’t be for murder, regardless what I believe.
I also never said he didn’t seem like a killer.

You said it's too big of a jump for him to have murdered her, no? A jump from being a creep to a murderer? I think it's just that we didn't take his previous crimes very seriously. He is clearly out of his mind.

 

[JosieJo]

No chance she ran to her death in my opinion. She'd never run into the fields area at midnight+ because there's no lighting and it's creepy as hell there at night. If he forced her to go in there then yes, it's possible but your theory is then solely based on your belief that he can't be a murderer because he doesn't seem like one, if you get what I mean? Because if he forced her into the fields for whatever reason, then there's a good possibility that he'd kill her intentionally or accidentally by strangulation or some kind of head injury.

Plus, after the post mortem and inquest, police were calling it "homicide" which suggests to me she had a head injury or something like that. If she had fell into the river I don't think they'd be calling it homicide.

I feel the opposite as homicide is an umbrella term ..in the UK its usually referred to as a murder enquiry..so it seems from that there was no traumatic cause of death

The only other information we know that lends itself to her running off is the screams and the running man ..the screams were described as moving and if the screams were her and the running man him something happened very quickly and he managed to get her into the river very quickly

I dont rule this out as a possibility completely

 

[JosieJo]

His house to Haworth street is a short drive that doesn't bring him past where Libby was. They would approach the same point from opposite directions if he'd gone there from home.

So it's possible he didn't see her until he parked.

Anything is possible this is just one possibility...but we have no idea if he was driving from home so could easily have driven past her

 

[JosieJo]

You said it's too big of a jump for him to have murdered her, no? A jump from being a creep to a murderer? I think it's just that we didn't take his previous crimes very seriously. He is clearly out of his mind.

We cant automatically presume he murdered her though either that's the problem

 

[motherofdaughters]

You said it's too big of a jump for him to have murdered her, no? A jump from being a creep to a murderer? I think it's just that we didn't take his previous crimes very seriously. He is clearly out of his mind.

Why ‘out of his mind’
I would say, actually reasonably calculated in these incidents.

 

[motherofdaughters]

This is what i have always felt.

@Newthoughts raises good points again though, re the missing time on spidercam. Im not sure i had considered some of those questions and it could possibly add so much.

One more thought this evening re further victims, given that he appeared to prey on students/young women, often in the early hours and possibly (often?, no offence or connotations meant here, im just wondering) in drink and given the nature of his crimes. Is it possible that some of his victims may to this day be unaware or unable to recall his crimes.

It’s very possible they don’t remember but may now his photo is out there.
One of the Toy Box Killer’s victims didn’t remember she’d been one of his victims until he was in the justice system and she thought
YES, that’s what happened. So it’s entirely possible similar may happen here (TBK is an horrendous case and I’m not suggesting it’s comparable but the remembrance could be similar seeing as everyone is effected differently by different things) Wether they’ll press charges and add further similar offences? Who knows.

 

[DiploRed]

Why ‘out of his mind’
I would say, actually reasonably calculated in these incidents.

Calculated he may be, but his head is totally gone. You don't do the things he did just because you are feeling adventurous.