Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #54 *ARREST*

[GordianKnot]

I think you’re probably right.

Clearly his stomach ailment was a ruse, and he planned to do something.

Dumb as he is (and he’s dumber than I have the ability to articulate), he must have realized that all eyes would be on him, and he’d be under immediate suspicion).

So he went with plan B, which was even dumber.

Idiots know how cell phones work, and that just because you communicate using two, where they are when this communication takes place, actually matters.

Not this dolt though.

Even trying to comprehend his logic, makes my head hurt.

BBM:

Kind of makes you feel like you've been kicked in the head by a horse yourself trying to get inside PF's brain, doesn't it?

Repeat after me:

"This is PF we're talking about here."

Even as simplistic as we've all tried to keep it, I still think we're overthinking PF's plan.
We've all put a lot more thought into it than he did himself that night, trust me on that one.

As far as what ultimately kept PF from killing KB the night before T-Giving when she was at the franch, my guess is that it very well may be simply this:

PF made a (spontaneous, impulsive) "plan" to kill KB that day and summoned her out to the ranch that night using a (really clever!) ruse. Once she arrived, in her own vehicle, it occurred to him that he didn't have any way to get her vehicle far enough away from the franch afterward to prevent the finger of suspicion from immediately falling upon him.

I'm virtually certain that this small, and by small, I mean enormous, complication of KB's vehicle being there at the franch didn't even occur to PF until KB pulled up the driveway. In her own vehicle.
I think PF then probably kept KB there for hours while he furiously tried to come up with a "solution" to this riddle.
He was incapable of problem-solving that "unforeseen" complication.

PF's "plans" are never multi-step. He is not capable of such sophisticated mental machinations.
His executive functioning skills are virtually nonexistent.
Two-step mental calculations are a bridge too far for him.
"Poison her Starbucks."
"Beat her with a baseball bat."

He doesn't think ahead about cell phones traveling together.
He doesn't think ahead about surveillance cameras.
He doesn't think ahead, period.

I'm 100% convinced he didn't think ahead about her vehicle.
He didn't give that a single thought until she pulled up at the franch that night.
Try as he did to to think with all his might, he couldn't work out what to do about that.
So, he watched her drive away at 4 am or whatever hour he kept her there until and began crafting Plan B.

Plan B,as we all know, turned out to be PF. In the townhome. With a baseball bat.

JMO.

 

[susiQ]

BBM:

Kind of makes you feel like you've been kicked in the head by a horse yourself trying to get inside PF's brain, doesn't it?

Repeat after me:

"This is PF we're talking about here."

Even as simplistic as we've all tried to keep it, I still think we're overthinking PF's plan.
We've all put a lot more thought into it than he did himself that night, trust me on that one.

As far as what ultimately kept PF from killing KB the night before T-Giving when she was at the franch, my guess is that it very well may be simply this:

PF made a (spontaneous, impulsive) "plan" to kill KB that day and summoned her out to the ranch that night using a (really clever!) ruse. Once she arrived, in her own vehicle, it occurred to him that he didn't have any way to get her vehicle far enough away from the franch afterward to prevent the finger of suspicion from immediately falling upon him.

I'm virtually certain that this small, and by small, I mean enormous, complication of KB's vehicle being there at the franch didn't even occur to PF until KB pulled up the driveway. In her own vehicle.
I think PF then probably kept KB there for hours while he furiously tried to come up with a "solution" to this riddle.
He was incapable of problem-solving that "unforeseen" complication.

PF's "plans" are never multi-step. He is not capable of such sophisticated mental machinations.
His executive functioning skills are virtually nonexistent.
Two-step mental calculations are a bridge too far for him.
"Poison her Starbucks."
"Beat her with a baseball bat."

He doesn't think ahead about cell phones traveling together.
He doesn't think ahead about surveillance cameras.
He doesn't think ahead, period.

I'm 100% convinced he didn't think ahead about her vehicle.
He didn't give that a single thought until she pulled up at the franch that night.
Try as he did to to think with all his might, he couldn't work out what to do about that.
So, he watched her drive away at 4 am or whatever hour he kept her there until and began crafting Plan B.

Plan B,as we all know, turned out to be PF. In the townhome. With a baseball bat.

JMO.

GK, you kill me!! I think reflection on PF's stupidity has honed your sarcasm to perfection!! And given the horror of this case, the comic relief at PF's expense is more than welcome

 

[MassGuy]

It would appear that KK was "waiting in the wings" for that phone call especially considering she turned off her location data in anticipation of the horrible event. JMO

I agree that she was probably “waiting in the wings for that phone call,” but I don’t think the location data being deleted and turned off is the most compelling argument for that.

I think PF’s alleged words to her are.

“You have a mess to clean up,” sounds like her end of the deal. A deal that they had already made, and one that she was expected to play a specific role in.

“If you won’t kill her, I will. You’re going to be the one cleaning it up though.”

The location data being turned off, was an effort to cover her tracks while she did her part. But that doesn’t necessarily prove that she knew in advance that a murder was going to take place, on account of the timing.

It was after the murder, but before the cleanup.

ETA: The arrest affidavit says “the days surrounding the murder” had no location data. So specifically when this location data ceases to appear, is still up in the air.

It’s entirely possible that it was turned off prior to the murder, or deleted afterwards.

 

[Warwick7]

I agree that she was probably “waiting in the wings for that phone call,” but I don’t think the location data being deleted and turned off is the most compelling argument for that.

I think PF’s alleged words to her are.

“You have a mess to clean up,” sounds like her end of the deal. A deal that they had already made, and one that she was expected to play a specific role in.

“If you won’t kill her, I will. You’re going to be the one cleaning it up though.”

The location data being turned off, was an effort to cover her tracks while she did her part. But that doesn’t necessarily prove that she knew in advance that a murder was going to take place, on account of the timing.

It was after the murder, but before the cleanup.

I wanted to comment on that earlier. It was new to me that it had been turned off before her trip, because I was under the impression it was turned off after she found out she had a mess to clean up.

It amazes me why they just didn't get "throw away phones" from the beginning. Seems risky with phone data today. I mean that's how LE found KK in the first place. (But maybe again PF didn't think ahead).

 

[susiQ]

I agree that she was probably “waiting in the wings for that phone call,” but I don’t think the location data being deleted and turned off is the most compelling argument for that.

I think PF’s alleged words to her are.

“You have a mess to clean up,” sounds like her end of the deal. A deal that they had already made, and one that she was expected to play a specific role in.

“If you won’t kill her, I will. You’re going to be the one cleaning it up though.”

The location data being turned off, was an effort to cover her tracks while she did her part. But that doesn’t necessarily prove that she knew in advance that a murder was going to take place, on account of the timing.

It was after the murder, but before the cleanup.

ETA: The arrest affidavit says “the days surrounding the murder” had no location data. So specifically when this location data ceases to appear, is still up in the air.

It’s entirely possible that it was turned off prior to the murder, or deleted afterwards.

Yes, sorry if I was mistaken on the timing of that.

 

[MassGuy]

I wanted to comment on that earlier. It was new to me that it had been turned off before her trip, because I was under the impression it was turned off after she found out she had a mess to clean up.

It amazes me why they just didn't get "throw away phones" from the beginning. Seems risky with phone data today. I mean that's how LE found KK in the first place.

And thank God they found her. Had they not done that, this case could have remained unsolved forever.

They would have had no idea that a murder took place, and all this incriminating cell phone data would have been lost.

No one would have discovered the blood, and it would have been a situation where law enforcement might have believed foul play was likely, but couldn’t prove.

KK would have gone on with her life, and PF would have raised his daughter, abused his animals, and lived happily ever after.

 

[MassGuy]

Yes, sorry if I was mistaken on the timing of that.

You weren’t wrong; atleast there’s no proof that you were wrong.

It’s unclear at this point when that data was turned off or deleted.

She might have turned it off prior, or deleted it afterwards.

We just don’t know. I was wrong about how the affidavit characterized it.

 

[katydid23]

And thank God they found her. Had they not done that, this case could have remained unsolved forever.

They would have had no idea that a murder took place, and all this incriminating cell phone data would have been lost.

No one would have discovered the blood, and it would have been a situation where law enforcement might have believed foul play was likely, but couldn’t prove.

KK would have gone on with her life, and PF would have raised his daughter, abused his animals, and lived happily ever after.

I have always assumed that some time, down the road, PF would have considered killing KB, because of everything she knew. She would have been a threat to him, and she might have 'gone missing' too at some point.

 

[Warwick7]

BBM:

Kind of makes you feel like you've been kicked in the head by a horse yourself trying to get inside PF's brain, doesn't it?

Repeat after me:

"This is PF we're talking about here."

Even as simplistic as we've all tried to keep it, I still think we're overthinking PF's plan.
We've all put a lot more thought into it than he did himself that night, trust me on that one.

As far as what ultimately kept PF from killing KB the night before T-Giving when she was at the franch, my guess is that it very well may be simply this:

PF made a (spontaneous, impulsive) "plan" to kill KB that day and summoned her out to the ranch that night using a (really clever!) ruse. Once she arrived, in her own vehicle, it occurred to him that he didn't have any way to get her vehicle far enough away from the franch afterward to prevent the finger of suspicion from immediately falling upon him.

I'm virtually certain that this small, and by small, I mean enormous, complication of KB's vehicle being there at the franch didn't even occur to PF until KB pulled up the driveway. In her own vehicle.
I think PF then probably kept KB there for hours while he furiously tried to come up with a "solution" to this riddle.
He was incapable of problem-solving that "unforeseen" complication.

PF's "plans" are never multi-step. He is not capable of such sophisticated mental machinations.
His executive functioning skills are virtually nonexistent.
Two-step mental calculations are a bridge too far for him.
"Poison her Starbucks."
"Beat her with a baseball bat."

He doesn't think ahead about cell phones traveling together.
He doesn't think ahead about surveillance cameras.
He doesn't think ahead, period.

I'm 100% convinced he didn't think ahead about her vehicle.
He didn't give that a single thought until she pulled up at the franch that night.
Try as he did to to think with all his might, he couldn't work out what to do about that.
So, he watched her drive away at 4 am or whatever hour he kept her there until and began crafting Plan B.

Plan B,as we all know, turned out to be PF. In the townhome. With a baseball bat.

JMO.

In the beginning I could never figure out why they needed two vehicles out there to check on cattle oh, and have the baby with them needless to say. It amazed me they took the baby out there when SF just as well could have watched her. This scenario seemed odd to me.

However after KK was brought into the picture and told law enforcement it originally was supposed to look like a suicide by gun. I had wondered if both vehicles were meant to go out there. He would shoot her, make it look like a suicide. Out in the middle of nowhere. Then take the baby and go to his own home.

His alibi building was already trying to lead others to think that KB was depressed, had entered a rehab. needed time alone, yada yada yada...

 

[Kapua]

In the beginning I could never figure out why they needed two vehicles out there to check on cattle oh, and have the baby with them needless to say. It amazed me they took the baby out there when SF just as well could have watched her. This scenario seemed odd to me.

However after KK was brought into the picture and told law enforcement it originally was supposed to look like a suicide by gun. I had wondered if both vehicles were meant to go out there. He would shoot her, make it look like a suicide. Out in the middle of nowhere. Then take the baby and go to his own home.

His alibi building was already trying to lead others to think that KB was depressed, had entered a rehab. needed time alone, yada yada yada...

When did KK tell LE that it originally was supposed to look like a suicide by gun?

 

[Warwick7]

When did KK tell LE that it originally was supposed to look like a suicide by gun?

A bat and bloody baby toys: More allegations revealed in woman's killing

"Kenney said Frazee ultimately convinced her to take Berreth's gun with her to make it look like Berreth committed suicide, the affidavit said."

 

[GordianKnot]

In the beginning I could never figure out why they needed two vehicles out there to check on cattle oh, and have the baby with them needless to say. It amazed me they took the baby out there when SF just as well could have watched her. This scenario seemed odd to me.

However after KK was brought into the picture and told law enforcement it originally was supposed to look like a suicide by gun. I had wondered if both vehicles were meant to go out there. He would shoot her, make it look like a suicide. Out in the middle of nowhere. Then take the baby and go to his own home.

His alibi building was already trying to lead others to think that KB was depressed, had entered a rehab. needed time alone, yada yada yada...

BBM:

I've found that it's best practice never to attempt making sense of PF's actions, on account of they're largely senseless.

Apparently, he got an "idea" in his head at one point that he could make it look like KB disappeared herself.
He blurted out all these claims that would support that idea, like saying she had a substance abuse problem, had been in rehab, had told him she needed time alone, etc.

Unfortunately, PF didn't consider the fact that most of the venomous lies he spewed about KB could be fact-checked and verified.

And by verified here, I mean completely debunked.

JMO.

 

[Steelslady]

I am so grateful that PF is stupid. Hopefully he's stupid enough to tell finally where Kelsey's ashes are (I am going to assume she was burned that day) so that her family at least has an answer once and for all.

 

[MassGuy]

I am so grateful that PF is stupid. Hopefully he's stupid enough to tell finally where Kelsey's ashes are (I am going to assume she was burned that day) so that her family at least has an answer once and for all.

He won’t. Not because he’s not stupid, but because there’s nothing in it for him.

Sociopaths don’t care about the feelings of others, or doing the right thing.

It’s all about them.

 

[?mysterian?]

I wanted to comment on that earlier. It was new to me that it had been turned off before her trip, because I was under the impression it was turned off after she found out she had a mess to clean up.

It amazes me why they just didn't get "throw away phones" from the beginning. Seems risky with phone data today. I mean that's how LE found KK in the first place. (But maybe again PF didn't think ahead).

I'm not so sure what goes on in PF's head can be called "thinking", much less "thinking ahead". He's definitely got a defective process in there, IMO. And he's a moron.

 

[gitana1]

I have always assumed that some time, down the road, PF would have considered killing KB, because of everything she knew. She would have been a threat to him, and she might have 'gone missing' too at some point.

100%. Murderers have no loyalty. No one is safe.

 

[Kapua]

A bat and bloody baby toys: More allegations revealed in woman's killing

"Kenney said Frazee ultimately convinced her to take Berreth's gun with her to make it look like Berreth committed suicide, the affidavit said."

Ah, thanks! Yes, I remember that KK took KB's gun with her and then gave it away. I thought you meant that KK said that PF was going to kill KB with her own gun the night before Thanksgiving. Sorry for misunderstanding!

 

[susiQ]

100%. Murderers have no loyalty. No one is safe.

AND, had he pulled this off with KK, she would've been next on his list!
Eta: Silly me, I just realized that's what Katy meant but inadvertently typed KB instead of KK.

 

[MemPat]

What on earth hasn't been civil or healthy? Everyone has been exceedingly polite.

And what misinterpretations of the law? People are discussing facts and whether that evidence helps support the murder charges.

Gitana, your level head and calm demeanor are welcome in any conversation.

 

[gitana1]

Gitana, your level head and calm demeanor are welcome in any conversation.

I thought maybe I missed something but it has seemed super calm on here and just a nice conversation overall.