Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #19

[Gina20]

Didn't Alan say he wouldn't believe his son is responsible without proof?

I am referring to the statement he made predicting his son's death. No public appeal was made at that time, or ever, by any of the parents, asking Bryer and Kam to turn themselves in. AS was not alone in his decision not to make a public appeal to his son. None of them did. Not a judgment, but a statement of fact.

 

[Satchie]

When did I ever say anything about holding people liable for failing to notice warning signs, or putting people in jail for joking about killing people?

No, but talking about preventing something from happening means you know exactly what caused it. For eg, "x failed to douse their campfire and therefore caused the forest fire"

So if someone could have prevented those two from having weapons and ammo, and prevented them from being on those highways at those times, then you could say with certainty the murders wouldn't have happened.

Otherwise, human behaviour isn't predictable and isn't subject to laws such as chemistry. No one can claim that if someone on, say, June 3, 2016 had done or said, or not done or said, something, then these murders would never had happened. We just don't know.

Like the proverb says:
For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,
For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,
For the want of a horse the rider was lost,
For the want of a rider the battle was lost,
For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.

 

[sandbar]

I think there will be an inquiry because that is the right thing to do to. K&B cannot speak for themselves, and I think it's important to at least try to determine WTF happened. As I've stated before if there are forces we are unaware of at play, an inquest will seek to determine the scope. If there are forces at play similar to other Canadian crimes, it's a public right to know issue.

 

[NJSleuth91]

No, but talking about preventing something from happening means you know exactly what caused it. For eg, "x failed to douse their campfire and therefore caused the forest fire"

So if someone could have prevented those two from having weapons and ammo, and prevented them from being on those highways at those times, then you could say with certainty the murders wouldn't have happened.

Otherwise, human behaviour isn't predictable and isn't subject to laws such as chemistry. No one can claim that if someone on, say, June 3, 2016 had done or said, or not done or said, something, then these murders would never had happened. We just don't know.

Like the proverb says:
For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,
For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,
For the want of a horse the rider was lost,
For the want of a rider the battle was lost,
For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.

It's not about blaming people. It's about recognizing patterns and doing better in the future.

 

[sandbar]

But she doesn't know what's on the other videos. KM and BS could admit to things, could have taken crime scene photos, basically could made it clear that they were behind the three murders...and then what would there be to inquire about?

A confession doesn't close an investigation. The confession then has to be investigated. For example, in a video confession LE would at least investigate to determine if anyone is threatening the confessor off-screen, and what was the confessor's frame of mind when they confessed.

 

[musicaljoke]

Which is why I think a personal appeal attempted by a family member either by cellphone message or written words online would be far more effective if made privately in the hopes it might be read or heard by either or both at some point. Just because it wasn’t broadcast by the media doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Any televised plea is not going to be front page news for more than a day or two.

Yes, I agree that a private, personal appeal could be more effective and less likely to backfire if the relationship between parents and children was already strained. I trust that the parents did what they thought best. They may have had legitimate concerns that their sons would continue murdering innocent people if the drama of a public appeal stirred the fire.

 

[Gina20]

Yes, I agree that a private, personal appeal could be more effective and less likely to backfire if the relationship between parents and children was already strained. I trust that the parents did what they thought best. They may have had legitimate concerns that their sons would continue murdering innocent people if the drama of a public appeal stirred the fire.

I am not saying what they should or shouldn't have done. I do find it interesting that none of the parents saw fit to make a public appeal to Bryer or Kam, despite their varying points of view.

 

[sandbar]

But it wasn’t another entity who was responsible for protecting LD, L&C from crossing paths with B&K, as they were independent adults who had the right to travel where they chose.

I think issues like cell phone coverage in the north, and signage specifically stating that you are out of cell phone range, locations of RCMP stations and substations, RCMP response times, etc, could be investigated in an inquiry stemming from all this.

 

[sandbar]

No one can claim that if someone on, say, June 3, 2016 had done or said, or not done or said, something, then these murders would never had happened. We just don't know.

You are correct about temporal specificity.

But there are so many layers in this tradegy, like, I can see an inquiry into the impact that witnessing parental violence and/or a parent's arrest has on a child. This could be one data point in that type of inquiry which could lead to a shift in policy or practise when children are involved in an arrest, or not, for example.

 

[sandbar]

They may have had legitimate concerns that their sons would continue murdering innocent people if the drama of a public appeal stirred the fire.

Great point, never thought of it that way, that a public appeal could have triggered something further.

 

[LoisLane]

Just wondering what the farewell video was recorded on if they had no smartphone? Reel-to-reel tape? Old videocam?

I’m curious if they had a dash cam. I have no idea how those work or how many hours of video it can hold.

 

[LoisLane]

RCMP tentatively connected them to the murders on July 19, soon after their burning truck and a nearby body was reported.

Their cellphone records between July 12 and July 19 were collected before they were named as suspects. We can assume KM/BS took measures to prevent locating their
phones after July 19.

Or maybe for a short time they connected in the bush in Gillam somehow.. near a camp or hydro facility and police caught it and that’s why they stuck to searching the area.

 

[Jan424]

DBM

 

[LoisLane]

Which is why I think a personal appeal attempted by a family member either by cellphone message or written words online would be far more effective if made privately in the hopes it might be read or heard by either or both at some point. Just because it wasn’t broadcast by the media doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Any televised plea is not going to be front page news for more than a day or two.

But what if the public appeal from the family was something these guys were hoping for? Some sort of satisfaction or reassurance that the families are suffering or coming together to demonstrate a meaningful plea. Absolutely not blaming the families for not doing a public conference but I am curious how deciding this is determined to be beneficial or not in these types of situations.

 

[Jan424]

Didn't Alan say he wouldn't believe his son is responsible without proof?

Yes and he also said Bryer was in pain, he’s sorry he couldn’t help him, and he (Bryer) was going out in a blaze of glory. To me, he sounded resigned at his son’s likely fate... at least at that time. Of course, JMO

 

[raffielle]

If you remove the sim card I don't believe they can trace the phone, so they could've done that and still used the camera/video functions on the phone. They could've charged their phones via the cigarette lighter. Or they could've had burner phones. You don't need reception to record video or take pictures only to upload them to places.

 

[Kubirai]

K&B cannot speak for themselves, and I think it's important to at least try to determine WTF happened. As I've stated before if there are forces we are unaware of at play, an inquest will seek to determine the scope. If there are forces at play similar to other Canadian crimes, it's a public right to know issue.

KM/BS had ample chance to speak for themselves, starting on July 15 after they murdered Lucas and Chynna.

I wrote down several unlikely scenarios and some obscure connections to other murders. My question to RCMP will be to consider if these victims were somehow placed in the path of two potential killers.

But no scenario involves KM/BS being forced to kill. They had a clear choice NOT to kill anyone, but they did.

 

[Satchie]

It's not about blaming people. It's about recognizing patterns and doing better in the future.

Of course, people want to know how to prevent bad things from happening, but actually, young men going on random murder sprees is very, very uncommon here. Deaths from drug overdoses have been much more common, because of tainted drugs. I also noticed a series in a Vancouver paper about young men joining gangs. There's also big concern about various forms of bullying, online and in person.

I think to most people in BC, this was an isolated incident, not a trend. So it's seen as a personal tragedy for those involved, rather than a matter of public interest and inquiry. ETA beyond the police report confirming their culpability, I mean.

 

[LoisLane]

The nursing home failed to protect the safety of the residents who were in their care, which is of public concern to us all.

But it wasn’t another entity who was responsible for protecting LD, L&C from crossing paths with B&K, as they were independent adults who had the right to travel where they chose.

Maybe the no cell service on the stretch of highway concern will be considered as part of an inquiry.

“All three victims were found in areas where cellphone service is virtually non-existent, with travellers unable to call for help if they encounter trouble.”
...

“At least two couples reported stopping to offer help to Fowler and Deese, who were sitting outside their broken-down van just hours before police say they were found dead.

Both couples noted the lack of cell service in that area as a reason for stopping.

Now, some members of the RCMP have been telling people to maybe think twice about that, despite all reports suggesting Schmegelsky and McLeod have long since left the province.”

“Asked whether more cell service is needed in the region, Phillips was clear: “We’ve been asking [the province] for years.””

Manseau said police in the region have become accustomed to doing their jobs with the technology at their disposal, including police radios and satellite phones for communication.

At the same time, he admitted better cell coverage would help both investigators and the public at large.

“Would more technology be better? Absolutely,” he said. “It would be better for the travelling public, and better for police. But we have to work with what we have, and officers up there have done a good job with that so far.”

Manseau wouldn’t speculate on whether more cell service may have prevented the murders of Fowler, Deese and Dyck, citing the ongoing investigation.

In wake of northern B.C. murders, residents say cell service needed along highways

 

[NJSleuth91]

Of course, people want to know how to prevent bad things from happening, but actually, young men going on random murder sprees is very, very uncommon here. Deaths from drug overdoses have been much more common, because of tainted drugs. I also noticed a series in a Vancouver paper about young men joining gangs. There's also big concern about various forms of bullying, online and in person.

I think to most people in BC, this was an isolated incident, not a trend. So it's seen as a personal tragedy for those involved, rather than a matter of public interest and inquiry. ETA beyond the police report confirming their culpability, I mean.

Even if random murder is relatively uncommon related to other crimes, it still happens often enough that we can talk about what to do to prevent it.

Three Mile Island was an isolated incident too but they made a bunch of changes after that.