GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #6

[Mormon Attorney]

If I am understanding you correctly, you are stating that CPR would have just made him bleed out all the more, and the focus should have been stopping the bleed out? That makes sense to me. Although, at some point, he must have gone in to cardiac arrest, and CPR *and* holding the wounds would have been needed. Is this directionally what you are pointing out?

Tragic

Amateur opinion and speculation

That was what I was originally saying but, given what Catmammy said and the prosecution emphasis that he was alive while she was in the room, it sounds like she should not have attempted CPR at all (because, according to Catmammy, you do not do CPR on a beating heart). But, yes, during the questioning of AG, it bothered me as the prosecutor focused on CPR and I just kept thinking that, with a chest wound, that would just expedite bleeding out which would have insured his death. It was a factual issue that bothered me.

The reason I leave this to the jury (among others) is that I once had my little boy fall in a lake in front of me at 3 years old. We were fishing. He was right there with me and I am a very protective mama. When he fell in, I froze. I had never felt anything like it in my life. I would give my life for my child and be glad to do it yet my husband had to physically shove me out of the way to jump in and save him. I still do not understand why I experienced that and did nothing to help my son.

Before everyone responds that I was not sexting at the time (before or after), I, too, wish every life saving measure had been taken at the scene. I also thought the call was weird that the dispatcher did not ask if he was alive or dead. Maybe she understood he was alive by the fact that AG wanted EMS too. I do not know.

I am saddened no actions were taken. I do understand also that shock is an overpowering experience where people, like me when my son fell in, do not act according to training.

I do not like the actions afterward. I do think they are something the jury will consider but, for me, it does not go to reasonableness at the time.

Also, at a ccw class, they warned that if you ever had to shoot someone, you will be in shock and repeat your last thought again and again. So the 21 times of repeating at the apartment makes sense to me.

I also once got into a vehicle at Walmart that wasnt mine. It was extremely similar. If I was ever questioned, I could see a prosecutor saying-

You didnt notice the license plate of another state? The personal effects in the car? The different air freshener? The fact that it was 2 lanes over?

And the truth is - not till after I tried to start it and the key didnt fit. If the key HAD fit, I would have probably driven a block before realizing it. Sad, but true. I would look like an idiot on the stand.

I could go round and round all day long on this. There are many facts both ways and there are many things the defendant herself probably wishes she had done differently. I definitely think she thought it was her apartment but I am grateful I do not have to be the jury to decide on reasonableness.

 

[Weki]

I don’t see a diff between “bud” and “guy” or “dude.” No police officer has ever addressed me informally. “Sir” would’ve been the appropriate way to address him.

 

[Mormon Attorney]

Let me preface this by stating the obvious, and that is that every police officer in this country is trained a different way depending on the Academy and Department they attended/worked for. As an Officer for the Pittsburgh Bureau of Police, I was trained as an EMT with full certification during the Police Academy.

CPR is not done with one hand. Ever. Guyger could have chosen to apply pressure to the wound or to perform CPR, but likely not both given the location of the wound and that she was alone. The problem I found her in her testimony is that she truly did NEITHER.

Not only that, but if she had attempted CPR(as she claimed), she almost certainly would have gotten blood on her uniform somewhere. Yet none was found. NONE. Not a single drop, anywhere on her uniform.

She admits Dallas trained them in CPR but then on the stand said she had never performed CPR on a live person. That is the case for even civilians trained in CPR, yet they never hesitate to try when the situation arises. I was so distburbed by her testimony, I only made it through 35 minutes.

Thank you for your detailed response. I was wondering how an officer would react to a personal situation. Does your training stay with you or do you go back to being a regular person who thinks he/she is home? As I said above, I experienced shock with my son and did nothing to my personal horror. Do officers experience shock the same way when it is personal or is that "trained" out of them?

Again, I am not taking sides, except for great love for Botham's family, but I am very interested in your thoughts on the difference between a normal person and an officer in shock, if there is any.

 

[722prayers]

That was what I was originally saying but, given what Catmammy said and the prosecution emphasis that he was alive while she was in the room, it sounds like she should not have attempted CPR at all (because, according to Catmammy, you do not do CPR on a beating heart). But, yes, during the questioning of AG, it bothered me as the prosecutor focused on CPR and I just kept thinking that, with a chest wound, that would just expedite bleeding out which would have insured his death. It was a factual issue that bothered me.

The reason I leave this to the jury (among others) is that I once had my little boy fall in a lake in front of me at 3 years old. We were fishing. He was right there with me and I am a very protective mama. When he fell in, I froze. I had never felt anything like it in my life. I would give my life for my child and be glad to do it yet my husband had to physically shove me out of the way to jump in and save him. I still do not understand why I experienced that and did nothing to help my son.

Before everyone responds that I was not sexting at the time (before or after), I, too, wish every life saving measure had been taken at the scene. I also thought the call was weird that the dispatcher did not ask if he was alive or dead. Maybe she understood he was alive by the fact that AG wanted EMS too. I do not know.

I am saddened no actions were taken. I do understand also that shock is an overpowering experience where people, like me when my son fell in, do not act according to training.

I do not like the actions afterward. I do think they are something the jury will consider but, for me, it does not go to reasonableness at the time.

Also, at a ccw class, they warned that if you ever had to shoot someone, you will be in shock and repeat your last thought again and again. So the 21 times of repeating at the apartment makes sense to me.

I also once got into a vehicle at Walmart that wasnt mine. It was extremely similar. If I was ever questioned, I could see a prosecutor saying-

You didnt notice the license plate of another state? The personal effects in the car? The different air freshener? The fact that it was 2 lanes over?

And the truth is - not till after I tried to start it and the key didnt fit. If the key HAD fit, I would have probably driven a block before realizing it. Sad, but true. I would look like an idiot on the stand.

I could go round and round all day long on this. There are many facts both ways and there are many things the defendant herself probably wishes she had done differently. I definitely think she thought it was her apartment but I am grateful I do not have to be the jury to decide on reasonableness.

The one big difference: She was a trained and, for all intents and purposes, a veteran officer. 4 years in, you're past being a rookie and you've learned to deal with the adrenaline spike and shock of an encounter. Sure, she hadn't shot someone before, but I'm sure she's dealt with a shooting victim in the prior 4 years with Dallas.

One of the things that is drilled in at the Academy is that if you are ever on-trial . . . "I was trained," "It was my training," or "In training, we" . . . . statements I have not heard from AG throughout. I realize the FOP isn't providing her attorney, but it's so odd not to have her rely on her training and instead answer on the stand as if she's an untrained civilian who has never been exposed to blood. It's mind-boggling.

 

[Weki]

She has to play the scared little woman civilian angle because she didn’t do anything that she was trained to do except double tap.

 

[722prayers]

Thank you for your detailed response. I was wondering how an officer would react to a personal situation. Does your training stay with you or do you go back to being a regular person who thinks he/she is home? As I said above, I experienced shock with my son and did nothing to my personal horror. Do officers experience shock the same way when it is personal or is that "trained" out of them?

Again, I am not taking sides, except for great love for Botham's family, but I am very interested in your thoughts on the difference between a normal person and an officer in shock, if there is any.

I think I was pretty much answering this as you were typing this reply. But let me answer this directly . . . no matter the situation, on-duty or off . . . I ALWAYS reverted to my training. A spike in adrenaline meant reverting to conditioned patterns of behavior, which for me was to respond to the threat and then help the wounded. We still experience it, but it is almost taken over by our training within a second or less.

If AG had been on the job less than a year, I could see her panicking and acting not as an officer. But she's had way too much experience for the responses she's giving in her testimony.

 

[MrsPC]

This is my 1st post on this case but I live locally & have followed the news & the trial to date. IMHO Guyger had other options. If she truly felt scared & threatened she could have tased Jean or ran out or whatever. I think too many of our police are trigger happy. And I know the Prosecution tried to get some texts of Guyger's admitted but the Judge would not allow, that were in direct conflict with Guyger's persona of "wanting to help people," <modsnip> (The Judge said they would be too prejudicial.) <modsnip> The outcome was doomed from the start. And I'm disappointed in how the Prosecution in this case seems to lack any passion. It's like they're just going thru the motions. I have no doubt that she'll be found not guilty or acquitted. And I think it's a damn shame.

 

[Mormon Attorney]

The one big difference: She was a trained and, for all intents and purposes, a veteran officer. 4 years in, you're past being a rookie and you've learned to deal with the adrenaline spike and shock of an encounter. Sure, she hadn't shot someone before, but I'm sure she's dealt with a shooting victim in the prior 4 years with Dallas.

One of the things that is drilled in at the Academy is that if you are ever on-trial . . . "I was trained," "It was my training," or "In training, we" . . . . statements I have not heard from AG throughout. I realize the FOP isn't providing her attorney, but it's so odd not to have her rely on her training and instead answer on the stand as if she's an untrained civilian who has never been exposed to blood. It's mind-boggling.

Thank you for this. I truly find your perspective very helpful. If I were the jury, I would appreciate someone like you to help me sort this out.

 

[722prayers]

This is my 1st post on this case but I live locally & have followed the news & the trial to date. IMHO Guyger had other options. If she truly felt scared & threatened she could have tased Jean or ran out or whatever. I think too many of our police are trigger happy. And I know the Prosecution tried to get some texts of Guyger's admitted but the Judge would not allow, that were in direct conflict with Guyger's persona of "wanting to help people," <modsnip> (The Judge said they would be too prejudicial.) <modsnip> The outcome was doomed from the start. And I'm disappointed in how the Prosecution in this case seems to lack any passion. It's like they're just going thru the motions. I have no doubt that she'll be found not guilty or acquitted. And I think it's a damn shame.

I'll back it up a step further. Regardless of what weapon she could choose, her first call should have been to 9-1-1. This is a department that still works in partners. She should have never entered the apartment alone.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Sure, she hadn't shot someone before, but I'm sure she's dealt with a shooting victim in the prior 4 years with Dallas.
.

Respectfully snipped for focus and commentary response.
But she *had* shot someone before - some guy that grabbed her taser. Fortunately he lived. I think it was the year before the Botham shooting. Someone correct me if I am wrong on timing.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Mormon Attorney]

I think I was pretty much answering this as you were typing this reply. But let me answer this directly . . . no matter the situation, on-duty or off . . . I ALWAYS reverted to my training. A spike in adrenaline meant reverting to conditioned patterns of behavior, which for me was to respond to the threat and then help the wounded. We still experience it, but it is almost taken over by our training within a second or less.

If AG had been on the job less than a year, I could see her panicking and acting not as an officer. But she's had way too much experience for the responses she's giving in her testimony.

Wow. Thank you. Those are the things I would want to know if I was on the jury.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'll back it up a step further. Regardless of what weapon she could choose, her first call should have been to 9-1-1. This is a department that still works in partners. She should have never entered the apartment alone.

I'm going to put you on the spot. Given what you know, how would you vote, and what should her sentence be, and why?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Mormon Attorney]

I'll back it up a step further. Regardless of what weapon she could choose, her first call should have been to 9-1-1. This is a department that still works in partners. She should have never entered the apartment alone.

Gosh, I wish you were on the stand. So, that would be a natural response even if you came home and thought someone was in your apartment?

 

[722prayers]

Thank you for this. I truly find your perspective very helpful. If I were the jury, I would appreciate someone like you to help me sort this out.

Thanks. Happy it helps.

Just want to say, I don't discount your experience with your son and I'm so sorry that happened. Years before I became a Police Officer and before I had ever taken even a civilian CPR class, I had a co-worker literally fall dead on my shoulder during lunch. We were talking and laughing and next thing, he fell entirely on my right shoulder (he was a large guy (350 lbs +) and I was small-ish (140 lbs). I didn't know CPR, but I immediately yelled out during our sales meeting and got the attention of three EMT's/Paramedics I knew were at the table behind us. He received CPR immediately and someone stole an AED from a neighboring building because the hotel we were meeting in didn't have one. Despite all of this, Keith died on the way to the hospital. I took a CPR class the following month (2009). I was hired by PBP in 2012.

 

[722prayers]

I'm going to put you on the spot. Given what you know, how would you vote, and what should her sentence be, and why?

Amateur opinion and speculation

Sadly, a murder charge is not going to stick. There's no motive. There's no intent. The best we've got is her lack of assistance after the shooting, but the "crime" had already happened. She should get manslaughter. The defense has done a tremendous job painting her as an innnocent, remorseful woman. The prosecution is going to need work harder at reminding the jury that this was a veteran, trained officer. Despite being tired, she displayed no training in this incident. She is unfit to ever serve as an officer again and without the right conviction, she'll be eligible to work elsewhere.

It disgusts me, but I fear the jury will believe her guilt and the prosecution will not execute the necessary reminders that this is not an untrained civilian. She may walk. *Sigh*

 

[Mormon Attorney]

Thanks. Happy it helps.

Just want to say, I don't discount your experience with your son and I'm so sorry that happened. Years before I became a Police Officer and before I had ever taken even a civilian CPR class, I had a co-worker literally fall dead on my shoulder during lunch. We were talking and laughing and next thing, he fell entirely on my right shoulder (he was a large guy (350 lbs +) and I was small-ish (140 lbs). I didn't know CPR, but I immediately yelled out during our sales meeting and got the attention of three EMT's/Paramedics I knew were at the table behind us. He received CPR immediately and someone stole an AED from a neighboring building because the hotel we were meeting in didn't have one. Despite all of this, Keith died on the way to the hospital. I took a CPR class the following month (2009). I was hired by PBP in 2012.

I am sorry that happened. Your response was so appropriate and helpful to him. My response with my son still bothers me and it has been 19 years. I have had a lot of training since then and think I would do differently now but I do not know. If you had asked me then, any mother who did not render aid was worthless. Then, it happened to me. That is why your experience on training helps me understand what an officer in shock might do.

 

[722prayers]

Respectfully snipped for focus and commentary response.
But she *had* shot someone before - some guy that grabbed her taser. Fortunately he lived. I think it was the year before the Botham shooting. Someone correct me if I am wrong on timing.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I apologize. I was not aware. Do we have details on that call? Did she render aid?

 

[722prayers]

I am sorry that happened. Your response was so appropriate and helpful to him. My response with my son still bothers me and it has been 19 years. I have had a lot of training since then and think I would do differently now but I do not know. If you had asked me then, any mother who did not render aid was worthless. Then, it happened to me. That is why your experience on training helps me understand what an officer in shock might do.

Getting trained after is the best thing you can do. If you saw it happen to a mother now, you may be the difference between that child's life and death. Shock happens. It's understandable for someone who doesn't face danger regularly. Any officer who experiences shock to the extent they forget their training IS NOT FIT TO SERVE. I'm saying it loud for everyone in the back. Police work is not for everyone.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I apologize. I was not aware. Do we have details on that call? Did she render aid?

"....Ms. Guyger, who worked for the Dallas Police Department for more than four years, had been involved in a previous shooting. In that case, she shot a man in the stomach after he grabbed her Taser weapon during a confrontation. The man survived, and a grand jury later declined to indict her...."
Trial Opens for Former Officer Who Killed Unarmed Black Man in His Apartment

 

[btfly547]

Regarding if CPR should have been performed is kind of a tough one.

Have I done conpressions with a very faint pulse? Absolutely and at least a dozen times. With a faint pulse someone is probably almost unconscious and headed towards “coding” within a couple minutes so it’s just starting the inevitable a little early. That’s within an advanced cardiac unit in a hospital though. For laypersons and cops, probably shouldn’t/wouldn’t if they feel a faint pulse.

Remember though that CPR can also mean a beating heart but not breathing. I think laypersons are taught to do compressions only, but honestly not sure.
Have I assisted breathing to someone semi-conscious with a strong pulse? Absolutely and probably minimum 100 times.

I guess it just depends on how she was trained. Since the bullet went through his left ventricle, I’m not sure if anything she did after the shooting would have saved him. Maybe some compression, maybe CPR then onto a bypass heart machine and heart surgery within minutes.

If I’m walking out of the hospital after my long shift and either witnessed or caused someone to be in a similar situation as Botham, I probably would have lost my job if I panicked, and texted someone like Amber did instead of rendering some aid be it helpful or not.

As an advanced nurse I would be held to a higher standard as should Amber.

In other words, giving aid whether it helped or hurt him I would be protected. Giving no aid especially if it’s an accident I caused would be reckless.