IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, found deceased, Evansdale, 13 Jul 2012 #38

[margarita25]

(Marking spot)

 

[somequestions]

In the case of Elizabeth Cook and Lyric Collins from July 2012, it makes complete sense why they were kidnapped from one area and taken to another area. In Evansdale, Iowa, the Meyer's Lake park area, where Elizabeth Cook and Lyric Collins were kidnapped from, has enough people walking around that committing a crime there would be difficult. Obviously they were kidnapped from there, but that may have taken very little time. I think they were killed elsewhere. The Seven Bridges Wildlife area where the girls' bodies were found is completely remote. I could barely find the Seven Bridges area looking on a map. Seven Bridges Wildlife area also looks to be one way in and one way out.

I know there is no proof that this crime is linked to the Delphi murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but the one commonality is that someone seems to be very familiar with remote areas that do not seem to be known by the general population. I read that even some residents of Delphi, IN knew very little about the Monon High Bridge before that crime happened. I wonder how many people in Evansdale, Iowa knew about the Seven Bridges Wildlife area before the bodies of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook were found there. There is youtube video of the Meyer's Lake park area done by a reporter 7 years ago who interviewed a psychic on the case. There is also video of the Seven Bridges Wildlife area done by this same reporter who went there with a family who knew some of the property owners in the area.

Location by itself does not define an individual and our link to that particular place. If you have read about an interesting location in a book and went there to visit, does that mean you are local because you went there once and know about the area? It is how we come to know those locations, their comfort level in our life, and how we interact with locations on a daily basis that are better tools for defining a place and its sense of meaning in our lives. ​

 

[dotr]

http://www.psychlotron.org.uk/newResources/criminological/A2_AQB_crim_geographicalProfiling.pdf
rbbm.
"Crime mapping and routine activity theory Routine activity theory (RAT) is an approach to understanding offending that starts from the principlethat any crime requires three circumstances to coincide: (1) a motivated offender; (2) a suitable victim; and (3) the absence of a capable guardian. RAT does not address the question of whyoffenders commit crimes, it just assumes that in any area there are a certain number of people who are motivated to do so. RAT sees offending as little different from any of the other things a person might regularly do. This is significant, since most of a person’s activities are confined to a few fairly limited areas: where they live; where they work; where they socialize and so on. It might be expected, then, that a person’s offences will also be limited in the geographical area in which they occur."

"Circle theory of environmental range Based on the finding that in many cases they examined, offenders lived fairly close to where they committed their offences, Canter and Larkin (1993) put forward the circle theory of environmental range. Basically, this proposes that the majority of the time, if a circle is drawn that encompasses all of a series of linked crimes, the offender will be based somewhere within the circle. Rossmo (2000) suggests that in general. criminals offend close to their homes (or other base) and the number of offences drops off with increasing distance from the base. There is a fair amount of support for this view. Godwin and Canter (1997) found that 85 per cent of the offenders they studied lived inside the circle encompassing their offences. Koscis and Irwin "
(1997) confirmed this looking at serial rapes and arson attacks in Australia. "

"However, Koscis and Irwin also found that the same finding did not appear to hold for burglary; only about half the time did burglars live in the circle defined by their offences. Snook et al (2005) examined the offence locations of 53 serial murderers in Germany. In 63% of cases the killer lived within 6 miles of wherethe bodies were found. Younger offenders travelled shorter distances and killers with higher IQs travelled further, suggesting that experience and intelligence influence killers’ attempts to disguise their crimes. This finding suggests that information about the dispersal of offences may indicate some general characteristics of the offender responsible. Mental maps People develop internal representations of the world they live in, especially the areas they make frequent use of. What is particularly interesting about these mental maps is that they do not accurately represent reality; they represent the perspective and experience of the individual. So, for example, a car driver might have a rather different mental map of Birmingham than a bus user or a pedestrian. Similarly, a Londoner’s mental map of their city centre may be very different depending on whether they walk or use the underground. Because a criminal’s offences are likely to be influenced by their mental map of an area, the distribution of their offences can be used to make inferences about them. For example, Canter used the locations of John Duffy’s attacks to predict that he would be someone with more knowledge of the railway network than a casual rail user. It turned out that Duffy was employed as a carpenter by British Rail."

 

[somequestions]

I think geographic profiling is useful as a tool to help narrow down a specific suspect and where they might live. In individual cases though I think it is highly guesswork. I try to look at other details besides location to make a guess. Since I think there is a small possibility the case of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook could be connected to the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, the pattern to me is one of distance. The video example below of an unsolved cold case from 1987 explains the 4 different categories of offenders using geographical profiling.

My opinion is that the offender in the case of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook is a poacher.

 

[otto]

Kell1 - I really like your post and wanted to say that your comment, "The killer usually has the most familiarity with the body recovery site..." makes a lot of sense. I could see a killer coming across a victim in a variety of places that they may not be that familiar with, but they have a quick opportunity to remove the victim from that area. It makes sense that the body recovery site is more likely to be an area that the killer is more familiar/comfortable with since they probably spend more time here - for the crime itself and maybe even to return to after the crime.

I was curious about your statement that "the murder scene is usually within 200 feet if where the bodies are recovered". I'm not questioning or doubting your comment, but I'm just curious as to what criteria are included in this statistic and how that could potentially skew the result. For example, does the result look only at murders where the body was removed from the "kill location" or did it look at all murders? Does it look only at murders where the killer was known to have moved the body or does it also look at cases where a body may have ended up a distance from the kill scene for "other" reasons - such as a body that was placed in water and carried by currents or a crime where the victim lived long enough to try to flee from the scene before they succumbed to their injuries?

I'm just wondering if the "200 ft" could be falsely skewed on the lower side of the spectrum if it looks at all murders since many murders do not result in a body having been moved from the scene. I would be interested in seeing what the statistic might be when looking only at the distance between an abduction site and a recovery site where it is known that the killer placed the body.

I would also be curious to see if the distance between the abduction site and the recovery site is affected by how old and/or experienced a killer is? I would think that a "newer" killer may be more likely to panic and therefore "dump" a body more quickly than a more experienced killer.

I would love to hear what others think of this. I think that if there are studies about this, the information could be very helpful to LE in evaluating the distance between the two sites and looking at possible suspects and their familiarity/proximity to both abduction and recovery sites while keeping in mind a possible suspects "experience".

Sorry if this is rambling, but sometimes I read someone else's post(s) and it makes me brainstorm.

They were found several months later, 20 miles from where they were last seen riding their bikes around noon on July 13, and they were roughly 20 feet apart, both lying in a ditch or slough/trench where they were found by hunters by chance. Something about using shoes to identify the bodies suggests they were skeletons with clothing.

I'm curious about the spatial relationship between the offender's home, the abduction site, and the dump site, and how that changes with more victims over time. Does the offender abduct closer to home or leave the body closer to home over time? If we knew that information, what does that say about where the offender lives?

Does this suspect live closer to the abandoned summer camp, or closer to the party-hangout from the 1970s where the bikes were found?

There is a good study about proximity from home to body - will look for it. Abduction site can sometimes remain a mystery. With Elizabeth and Lyric we know where their bikes were found and we know that Elizabeth's purse was tossed over the fence, landing near the shore. That was the abduction site for the girls, but it seems that they were forced to walk along the shore of the leach infested lake to get to a vehicle - they couldn't have walked the path because others were on the bike path at the time that they were abducted.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Wow, it’s great to come back after another absence and find some really interesting posts!

This has probably been discussed in prior posts which I haven’t had a chance to read:

He [Drew] said he has new hope after hearing online DNA profile websites have recently helped police catch murderers years later.

“I am hoping technology that is on the edge of coming out or something that is recent or new will bring this case to a close,” Collins said.

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiENUJRw52nxW8UAXJtLA8tm4qGAgEKg8IACoHCAow69j-ATDqjRcwjb-YBg?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

We have often discussed whether any useful DNA was found on the girls or at the crime scene. My interpretation of Drew’s statement is that some DNA was found.

Any comments?

 

[Marilynilpa]

Here is part of a 2014 article:

“The offender blends in with and may be part of the Evansdale, Bremer and surrounding communities. It is unlikely that the offender is a transient or someone who was merely traveling or ‘passing through’ the area,” according to the site. The suspect likely used “quiet coercion” to gain the girls’ compliance into leaving Meyers Lake, using a ruse or threats of violence.

Investigators Release Suspect Profile in Murder of Evansdale Cousins

I wonder if LE has changed their beliefs in light of no arrest(s) being made?

I still think the killer is local, and was probably known by at least one of the girls. JMO.

Has anyone’s opinion changed over the years regarding the perp(s)?

 

[Marilynilpa]

When I look at these two little girls, I get so ANGRY that someone out there probably knows who killed them but hasn’t yet come forward!

 

[SouthernMom]

Wow, it’s great to come back after another absence and find some really interesting posts!

This has probably been discussed in prior posts which I haven’t had a chance to read:

He [Drew] said he has new hope after hearing online DNA profile websites have recently helped police catch murderers years later.

“I am hoping technology that is on the edge of coming out or something that is recent or new will bring this case to a close,” Collins said.

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiENUJRw52nxW8UAXJtLA8tm4qGAgEKg8IACoHCAow69j-ATDqjRcwjb-YBg?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

We have often discussed whether any useful DNA was found on the girls or at the crime scene. My interpretation of Drew’s statement is that some DNA was found.

Any comments?

I think it would be interesting to know what evidence could have been recovered from the crime scene after 5 months.
What condition would that evidence be in after so much time and exposure to the elements? It would be wonderful if technology improves enough to link that evidence to a possible suspect.
Not just for these sweet girls but for many other victims.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I think it would be interesting to know what evidence could have been recovered from the crime scene after 5 months.
What condition would that evidence be in after so much time and exposure to the elements? It would be wonderful if technology improves enough to link that evidence to a possible suspect.
Not just for these sweet girls but for many other victims.

Regarding the condition of DNA after being exposed to the elements, I think someone posted about that a few threads ago. I guess it would depend on the type of DNA.

I wonder if any DNA was found on the bikes, purse or cell phone?

I think Drew might have been thinking about familial DNA which has been in the news recently with regards to solving cold cases:

A familial DNA search is a search by law enforcement in DNA databases for genetic information indicating a relative of a person they seek to identify. When a search for an exact match to a DNA sample comes up fruitless, a search of familial DNA may bring back a partial match, indicating a sibling, child, parent or other blood relative. In fact, this is how the infamous Golden State Killer was finally identified and apprehended in 2018, more than 30 years after his last known crime spree.

Familial DNA Searches - FindLaw

 

[Marilynilpa]

I found this about DNA:

DNA, however, is fragile, and breaks down over time. How long the decomposition process takes will vary with the circumstances under which it is found. Take, for example, if DNA is exposed to the elements: Like the human body itself, DNA decays with increasing rapidity in the presence of heat, water, sunlight, and oxygen. Those essential conditions of life also speed the process of death, potentially rendering DNA useless for analysis in a matter of weeks.

How Long Does DNA Last?

 

[gregjrichards]

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When I look at these two little girls, I get so ANGRY that someone out there probably knows who killed them but hasn’t yet come forward!

I know it is really upsetting and frustrating I am hoping the recent reward announcement may have brought some leads.

It is nice to have you back @Marilynilpa I hope you are well.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I know it is really upsetting and frustrating I am hoping the recent reward announcement may have brought some leads.

It is nice to have you back @Marilynilpa I hope you are well.

Thanks, I’m glad to be back and am feeling fine.

 

[Marilynilpa]

A man tried to snatch two girls walking home from school in South Carolina. He asked them to go with him to a park.

Man tried to snatch girls walking home from school bus, SC police say

Probably zero connection to this case, but I thought I’d pass it along.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I watched a true crime show about a young man who murdered a teenage girl who was supposedly his best friend. He avoided detection for quite a while because both his mother and his girlfriend provided him with a strong alibi. He was a self-absorbed and overindulged young man, used to getting his way.

It made me wonder who might have provided an alibi for the killer(s) of our girls.

 

[PezCandy]

A man tried to snatch two girls walking home from school in South Carolina. He asked them to go with him to a park.

Man tried to snatch girls walking home from school bus, SC police say

Probably zero connection to this case, but I thought I’d pass it along.

even if zero connection, it’s an example of how this type of stuff happens. It could have been the type of situation Liz and a Lyric were in. It’s super sad that this case hasn’t been solved yet

 

[watcher9]

Or another example - MJK asking the two girls in Dayton IA if they wanted to earn extra money cutting grass.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I’ve been asked to provide a synopsis of this case to a podcast producer. If he likes it, I’ll write an entire podcast about our girls. I’ll provide more details if this takes place.

I hope this will do some good.

 

[TristanP]

I think it would be interesting to know what evidence could have been recovered from the crime scene after 5 months.
What condition would that evidence be in after so much time and exposure to the elements? It would be wonderful if technology improves enough to link that evidence to a possible suspect.
Not just for these sweet girls but for many other victims.

It’s my personal opinion that the girls had not been at Seven Bridges for 5 months. I believe they were killed not long before their bodies were found.

My theory is that they were taken by someone unknown to them and kept alive somewhere for a while. This is completely a hunch but I think he kept them as long as he could but then had to get rid of them because their hiding place was in danger of being discovered.

LE has always said their BODIES were found and not their REMAINS, which to me are different things. Remains are severely decomposed whereas bodies are intact. There was also no mention of only partial remains being found, and if they had been at 7 Bridges for 5 months, from July to December, there’s no way animals wouldn’t have scattered/scavenged their remains. If they had been there since July, in the heat they would have been decomposed to skeletal remains within weeks, leaving months of time animals would have had access to them, not to mention they’d be covered up by leaves falling in autumn.

But, what do I know. I’m just speculating based on bits and pieces of the evidence I’ve heard from LE releases. But I do think the person who took them lived in and probably still lives in the area. I also think there’s zero connection to Delphi and it annoys the heck out of me that people want to connect that just because it was 2 girls abducted together.

 

[SouthernMom]

I’ve been asked to provide a synopsis of this case to a podcast producer. If he likes it, I’ll write an entire podcast about our girls. I’ll provide more details if this takes place.

I hope this will do some good.

Congratulations on getting an opportunity to spread awareness and draw attention to this case again. Best wishes on the podcast if you get to do it!