Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #115

[Mike Britton]

What if the case goes cold because the circumstantial evidence (tons) isn't enough?

When, if ever, would a circumstantial case for capital murder be acceptable? Is there a tipping point? I have a feeling that as soon as LE names their primary suspect, we'll be able to make the connections to remove reasonable doubt.

 

[zoricaj1]

thread 115...hopefully the last one
**FINGERS CROSSED**
Rest In Peace Abby&Libby

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I think they could rationalise away the suspicion.

Here is a frustrating example. Just saw this again in the Ted Bundy documentary on Oxygen.

Bundy tried kidnapping a girl and she actually got away from him, as he was driving her into the woods, to kill her. She knew his name was Ted and drove a tan VW Bug, and was a student at the local college and she helped them draw a picture of him.

His picture was plastered all over the news, and reports that he was a college student named Ted, who drove a tan VW Bug.

Ted's girlfriend and her friend were suspicious of him when they heard that news. Obviously. And they were going to call the police. BUT THEN Ted's girlfriend looked at the news article, and it said he drove a 'gold' VW Bug. SO SHE RATIONALIZED AWAY HER FEARS---wrong color, his bug is tan, not gold----WTH? What is the difference between calling it tan or gold?

It's heartbreaking to think she could have turned him in before he killed the next 10 girls.

It is the police fault, not his GF’s. And -
she did call the police. Maybe not about VW beetle but about his behavior. Ted was nr 6 on the police POI list in WA, he was on their radar, but the case never moved anywhere. When he was arrested in Utah, the police inspected his VW, but as he later said, so sloppily that they missed Polaroid photos of his victims (this is what Ted says, so we can not be sure of it, but sloppily is possible).

But after he was finally arrested, he twice escaped from CO courts. This is totally LE responsibility and fault. It took him to escape to Floroda and kill several women there to get arrested.

When something is LE’s fault and the press is blaming the SK’s friends and relatives, sorry, not right.


Ultimately, it is their job to find the perpetrator.

ETA: later, when all is said and done in Delphi case, it would be nice to know how the personalities of the main players, the LE, the FBI, played into the decision, what to release to the public, and what not.

 

[Fizzle]

Random thoughts about the nature of the video/audio:

If Libby was making a snapchat video, then she may not have filmed BG out of concern that they were in danger. If she had been filming Abby on SC crossing the bridge and talking about regular stuff (as I believe was stated at some point), then it makes sense that BG would come into the frame as he approached. The girls talking about regular stuff had to have happened pre-BG clip. Otherwise, I don't think the girls would be talking to each other casually.

Libby could have dropped her phone into her pocket (or to the ground) at the point BG approaches for many reasons... out of fear, to free up her hands, to help Abby finish crossing, to run, etc. etc. Not at all disputing that he was odd or creepy or that they got a bad vibe by the point of the video clip we have seen. It just seems that if she was intentionally videotaping him, she would have had the phone directed toward him (rather than smalltalk with Abby) when he was a bit further back on the bridge? And if LE had that footage, I think they would have shared it because we would all have a better view of his gait (even though he'd be further away, we'd be able to see more than one or two steps).

Maybe she was SC videoing Abby and when Abby asked if he was behind her, Libby did a quick sweep to see that he was indeed behind her and closing fast -- maybe that's when they lose video, but still have a bit more audio (at least enough to hear the "guys" and the "down the hill").

Pure speculation. JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

What if the case goes cold because the circumstantial evidence (tons) isn't enough?

When, if ever, would a circumstantial case for capital murder be acceptable? Is there a tipping point? I have a feeling that as soon as LE names their primary suspect, we'll be able to make the connections to remove reasonable doubt.

I guess, not. Circumstantial evidence for capital murder is probably not enough.

But if there is enough circumstantial evidence, they can forbid the person leave the Carrol county, and release all they have.

 

[Charlot123]

I think BG was wearing a hat with flapping ears. But as to Bieber’s cut, too many kids in Delphi school sported it that year.

One more thing, if he was holding a mouth guard in his mouth, this thing totally changes how the nose looks. I saw a photo of someone holding a mouth guard in the mouth, and it made his nose “bulbous”.

So now I assume BG had a smaller, straighter, nose.

 

[Charlot123]

Well that would be a good reason to start videoing him.

maybe the fact that usually he dresses fine, and that day, it was an ugly jacket and hat, and something in his mouth?

I don’t think it is pantyhose, a thin scarf should be enough.

ETA: but if it was pantyhose, he could have dropped it in the river, as being stopped and having this stuff in the pocket would be dangerous. What if the police took it for the item from girls’ dress, and did not realize it came from him? I hope they bag each piece of evidence separately.

 

[Elsa Johanssen]

Hope this is allowed to say and apologies to others that have brought this up but i have accepted the fact that this is a serial killer and that Libby/Abby are connected with the girls in Iowa. The killer was familiar with both areas, it seems, which would be a good way to narrow down some suspects if that indeed is true. I'm not sure it's coincidental that both involved bridges. Both cases have one major thing in common which I am not allowed to reference here. Wish we could have a separate thread for that - I think there would be some eye-opening revelations. MOO

 

[Torch Carrier]

LE have said the man in the video and the audio is the same person, is the person on the bridge, and is responsible for the murders. The new sketch is the suspect in the murders, therefore, the new sketch is the person on the bridge.

"Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully." "The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls." Carter said."

"During Monday's press conference, Indiana State Police also requested the public's help to identify the driver of a vehicle that was parked nearby the day Libby and Abby went missing...Carter says a vehicle was parked at the old CPS/DCS Welfare building in Delphi on the east side of County Road 300 North, next to the Hoosier Heartland Highway between noon and 5 p.m. February 14, 2017. No details about that vehicle were released, including make and model, color or license plate number."

ISP says new audio, video and sketch shows Delphi killer

When DC reinforced at the PC "this is one person talking" I thought maybe (if they know who BG is but need more tips about him) they used a recording of him saying "guys" from a date and time elsewhere such as BG addressing a group at a scout meeting or church service ... to get ppl who might often hear him say "guys" to realize BG may be _____ whom they know. They would recognize the voice and say "hey, that's _____!" So emphasizing it is one person (but not all from libby's phone recording) to jog memories of locals and get them calling in to LE. That make any sense to anyone?

 

[rahmer]

When DC reinforced at the PC "this is one person talking" I thought maybe (if they know who BG is but need more tips about him) they used a recording of him saying "guys" from a date and time elsewhere such as BG addressing a group at a scout meeting or church service ... to get ppl who might often hear him say "guys" to realize BG may be _____ whom they know. They would recognize the voice and say "hey, that's _____!" So emphasizing it is one person (but not all from libby's phone recording) to jog memories of locals and get them calling in to LE. That make any sense to anyone?

I don' t think so. The audio file sounds similiar and looks similiar too (waveform, frequencies...)

I think there isn't much more audio which they could use and share with the public.

The audio file also sounds like he wasn't that far away from the microphone but it could be that the cops denoised it heavily...what I don't believe because it would change the sound more.
Think the phone was already in the pocket or something like that and they started to walk/run whatever.

Horrible.

All my MOO and sorry for my english!

 

[Moonracer]

MOO and MOO only- He may not have stopped. He may have killed in (another) other state(s), but changed his method.

I agree, AND AND AND he may be in jail or prison right now for unrelated crimes - I hope LE has had the sense to LOOK at the detainees in every jail in the area -

 

[This guy you know]

When DC reinforced at the PC "this is one person talking" I thought maybe (if they know who BG is but need more tips about him) they used a recording of him saying "guys" from a date and time elsewhere such as BG addressing a group at a scout meeting or church service ... to get ppl who might often hear him say "guys" to realize BG may be _____ whom they know. They would recognize the voice and say "hey, that's _____!" So emphasizing it is one person (but not all from libby's phone recording) to jog memories of locals and get them calling in to LE. That make any sense to anyone?

It would be completely irresponsible by LE to plant the word “Guys” in the audio.

I think the phone is damaged thus the difficulty in extracting video or audio. That or the only thing they have was uploaded to SC. If it’s complete audio they may have worked to enhance his voice only and edit out the girls- they don’t want those memories in the media for family sake.

I know LE has said the picture(s) of BG are from a video but I’m wondering if they aren’t from a Panoramic ic multishot picture and he’s inadvertently captured there as opposed to the girls videoing from side or near their pockets.

 

[Fizzle]

I don' t think so. The audio file sounds similiar and looks similiar too (waveform, frequencies...)

I think there isn't much more audio which they could use and share with the public.

The audio file also sounds like he wasn't that far away from the microphone but it could be that the cops denoised it heavily...what I don't believe because it would change the sound more.
Think the phone was already in the pocket or something like that and they started to walk/run whatever.

Horrible.

All my MOO and sorry for my english!

I agree. IIRC they actually stated that the "guys" was from the audio from Libby's phone.

 

[busymcmoody]

Hope this is allowed to say and apologies to others that have brought this up but i have accepted the fact that this is a serial killer and that Libby/Abby are connected with the girls in Iowa. The killer was familiar with both areas, it seems, which would be a good way to narrow down some suspects if that indeed is true. I'm not sure it's coincidental that both involved bridges. Both cases have one major thing in common which I am not allowed to reference here. Wish we could have a separate thread for that - I think there would be some eye-opening revelations. MOO

I don't know what to think TBH because LE said they don't think the cases are related but it's weird that the girls from both Evansdale and Delphi resemble one another, additionally to all the other similarities.

 

[Moonracer]

Really the only things we the public don’t know that is important is if there was SA, cause of death and what is on the full recording and I don’t know how knowing these will help Joe public on the street identity him. LE are not releasing the information because they don’t want false confessions or cause harm to the investigation. It is frustrating we don’t have all the information but we need to trust law enforcement and their reasons why. The third anniversary in February might possibly bring a change in tactics from LE we will see what happens.

Interestingly to me, the supposed LE fear of "false confessions" tips their hand that they have NO DNA, because someone making a false confession's DNA could easily be eliminated. All MOO, of course.

 

[busymcmoody]

Interestingly to me, the supposed LE fear of "false confessions" tips their hand that they have NO DNA, because someone making a false confession's DNA could easily be eliminated. All MOO, of course.

Not necessarily. The amount of tips they get is staggering. They have to filter them out just as they have to filter out confessions. I would think they don't want to waste time with a wrong confession so that's how they filter them out. Processing DNA takes a bit - valuable time they don't want to lose. MOO.

 

[Moonracer]

Not necessarily. The amount of tips they get is staggering. They have to filter them out just as they have to filter out confessions. I would think they don't want to waste time with a wrong confession so that's how they filter them out. Processing DNA takes a bit - valuable time they don't want to lose. MOO.

I respectfully disagree and note that this is turning into a cold case. Always MOO.

 

[busymcmoody]

I respectfully disagree and note that this is turning into a cold case. Always MOO.

I get what you're saying but I, respectfully, disagree too.

LE rarely give details about active cases. They keep the Evansdale details close to their chest too - it doesn't say anything about what kind of evidence they have. Could be DNA, could be touch DNA, could be no DNA at all (although I doubt that). They did exclude Etter so they must have something. Who knows, we won't know until either they give up or they solve this case. MOO.

 

[JnRyan]

Posting this again, Sgt Riley of the ISP states they have talked to well over 1100 persons.
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

If I look up Carroll County in Wikipedia: Carroll County, Indiana - Wikipedia

The estimated population in 2018 is 20127. 1100 is roughly 5% of the population. But if can assume half the population is 40 or under (40.9 median age per Wikipedia) and only half of those is male this leads to roughly 4900 persons. (Almost 99.5% were not Asian, American Indian or African American.) They state that roughly 32% have a child under the age of 18 living in home so maybe we are down to about roughly 3400 males between 18 and 40. And not all of these have dark hair.

Now to be sure these are very rough numbers based on Wikipedia and not exact. To be sure LE has no doubt talked to women and persons under 18 and over 40 who might be witnesses or providing info. And we know they have looked outside the county. So all of these 1100 are not in Carroll County or males between 18 and 40 yo because I lack the hard data and percentages.

But still, 1100 persons and we have a county with approximately 3000 to 4500 possibilities. Then we add over 40K in tips - maybe close to 45K now - video, audio, possible witnesses seeing BG that day, a sketch and some of the most publicity I've seen in a murder case. This doesn't include the possibility of DNA. And there is STILL no arrest? Outside of the guy who was caught on video parking Jennifer Kesse's car the day of her disappearance, this guy has got to be luckiest I've seen so far. I'm not certain to what level this killer is organized, if he is organized at all, but so far he has been very lucky.

 

[Charlot123]

Hope this is allowed to say and apologies to others that have brought this up but i have accepted the fact that this is a serial killer and that Libby/Abby are connected with the girls in Iowa. The killer was familiar with both areas, it seems, which would be a good way to narrow down some suspects if that indeed is true. I'm not sure it's coincidental that both involved bridges. Both cases have one major thing in common which I am not allowed to reference here. Wish we could have a separate thread for that - I think there would be some eye-opening revelations. MOO

I always thought it was impossible, but now I think, someone who lives between Evansdale and Delphi and has friends in Delphi whom he visited, is possible. The distance between Evansdale and Delphi is 5 . 6 hours, so anywhere 2-3 hours from Evansdale and 2-3 hours from Delphi is possible.
My only “but” is that the BG seems young, and two murders of this type require an older man, but I might be wrong age-wise.


ETA: both things involve bridges. Missed it.

There is a site,
https://bridgehunter.com/, that might be interesting. Being the member could allow the person to travel and explore bridges anywhere in the country. He can have a sincere interest in bridges, btw.

I noticed one unusual thing about Monon bridge, I never checked Evansdale murders bridges-wise. But something to look at.