GUILTY NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 #3

[All & Forward]

There's nothing new in that article.
It was published four days ago and all of that detail was discussed during the trial by the defence. Also it was in the thread here at WS.

Not sure why there is still focus on Grace's interests and behaviour as if she's the one on trial. Or perhaps its just prurient interest.

I don't remember reading about explicit details – gas masks, 'daddy' stuff. Didn't intend to repeat anything insensitive. Just found it curious.

Also, is requesting paywalled articles against the forum rules?

Grace Millane trial: The girl behind the headlines

 

[Marulinka]

Hi everyone. Have been following the case from here in london. IMO he was a serial killer in the making not just a ome off. Sorry that it all came to this end for Grace.

Can anybody please enlighten me if the evidence about his character and behavioral traits by his landlord and former flatmates was used in trial? And if not then why? I would find it quite relevant...

 

[DanceCard]

Didn't intend to repeat anything insensitive.

For me it's not about the information being insensitive, it's that - IMO - Grace's interest in BDSM does not make him less culpable.
Continued focus on looking for more details about her sexual interests makes no sense to me. I know you were looking for her Fetlife account so is there something that I'm missing? Something relevant to her murder?

 

[safeontwo]

My first post on here, not sure if we are allowed to speculate in this way, but are Fetlife and Whiplr well known apps in NZ?

Just a thought I had - what if she ever consented in the first place? Could she have turned him down and he snapped and killed her? In the process of disposing of her belongings maybe he went through her phone, or if it was locked saw a notification from one of these apps and came up with the whole breath restriction gone wrong story - if he knew what they were. Especially now we have the stories from others he has dated showing how quickly he snaps when rejected.

She had ‘vanilla’ sex with the guy the previous night, so what made this guy so special that she’d want to reveal her preferences - although I guess perhaps the amount of alcohol consumed could explain that.

 

[DanceCard]

Just a thought I had - what if she never consented in the first place? Could she have turned him down and he snapped and killed her? In the process of disposing of her belongings maybe he went through her phone, or if it was locked saw a notification from one of these apps and came up with the whole breath restriction gone wrong story - if he knew what they were. Especially now we have the stories from others he has dated showing how quickly he snaps when rejected.

She had ‘vanilla’ sex with the guy the previous night, so what made this guy so special that she’d want to reveal her preferences - although I guess perhaps the amount of alcohol consumed could explain that.

Welcome to WS.

I've also wondered about consent. Not initially, but there was a point in the trial when it occurred to me.

 

[DanceCard]

I don't remember reading about explicit details – gas masks, 'daddy' stuff.

Sorry, I've just realised that I didn't reply to this part of your post. Those details were
discussed during evidence from a defence witness, although he never actually met Grace in person.

 

[RubyLee87]

Having read the new statements from women that dated this man, I don’t believe any of his defence. Not even the consensual choking. IMO he invited Grace back to his room for drinks and perhaps initiated sex. I don’t think she would have wanted to try choking or BDSM with a stranger from an app. Previous partners say that he displays aggressive behaviour when he’s rejected. I can easily imagine him trying something Grace was uncomfortable with, her resisting and him losing his temper and killing her.

The whole thing is so tragic. Reading her excited tweets before she went travelling is heartbreaking. I’m glad her family have justice with the guilty verdict but it must feel somewhat hollow. It doesn’t bring her back. However, I have no doubt that he would have killed again and women are safer now he’s off the streets.

 

[Cherwell]

Having read the new statements from women that dated this man, I don’t believe any of his defence. Not even the consensual choking. IMO he invited Grace back to his room for drinks and perhaps initiated sex. I don’t think she would have wanted to try choking or BDSM with a stranger from an app. Previous partners say that he displays aggressive behaviour when he’s rejected. I can easily imagine him trying something Grace was uncomfortable with, her resisting and him losing his temper and killing her.

I would agree with this. I don't believe a word he said. There's absolutely no evidence that she would have trusted anyone to that degree on a first date, the evidence given suggests the opposite.

Most likely he did something that scared her (like the earlier witness described), she wanted to leave and he snapped.

 

[MsBetsy]

Murdered Brit backpacker Grace Millane 'gave man list of her kinky sex fetishes'

An article with some information I hadn't seen before, specifically about her sexual interests (restraint, 'total control,' breath play, massage).

But can anyone tell me what the top video is of? Is it of Grace? It shows a girl walking around in what looks like the middle of the night, with what looks like her phone in her hand. But it looks like a suburban setting? Definitely not somewhere within a 20-minute walk of the Auckland CBD.

At the end, it says something to the effect of 'due to respect to the person in the video, we have not shown the rest.'

What's the video of?

From when?

And does anywhere else have the full video?

The only video I saw was the one of the murderer being questioned by investigators.

That article is pro- defense. It goes on and on about her sexual preferences which at this point is irrelevant and disrespectful to the victim. It has nothing to do with the fact that her murderer strangled her to death.

The focus should be on what kind of person Grace was, her hopes and goals, and how she lived life.

And that was all taken away by a sick, selfish, lying individual whose only remorse was for himself.

 

[sunnynz]

Also, is requesting paywalled articles against the forum rules?

Grace Millane trial: The girl behind the headlines

I asked the same thing and an admin said that other members who have access can paraphrase key points but can’t copy and paste from it.

 

[MsBetsy]

I would agree with this. I don't believe a word he said. There's absolutely no evidence that she would have trusted anyone to that degree on a first date, the evidence given suggests the opposite.

Most likely he did something that scared her (like the earlier witness described), she wanted to leave and he snapped.

Yes, by all accounts, this guy could not handle rejection from women.

I also think something happened that made him angry. She may have protested at one point and he lost control and assaulted her.

The blood evidence suggests to me that he did more than strangle her.

Imo

 

[Marulinka]

Hi everyone. Have been following the case from here in london. IMO he was a serial killer in the making not just a ome off. Sorry that it all came to this end for Grace.

Can anybody please enlighten me if the evidence about his character and behavioral traits by his landlord and former flatmates was used in trial? And if not then why? I would find it quite relevant...

 

[sunnynz]

This article shows the messages between grace and the killer before they met up. There’s no discussion between them about sexual likes/dislikes so this must have only been discussed in person. I believe the killer must have had at least some discussion with grace for him to know what she was into - otherwise it’s too much of a coincidence for him to then use it as his defence. Grace Millane murder: Tinder messages with her killer revealed

 

[PrimeSuspect]

This article shows the messages between grace and the killer before they met up. There’s no discussion between them about sexual likes/dislikes so this must have only been discussed in person. I believe the killer must have had at least some discussion with grace for him to know what she was into - otherwise it’s too much of a coincidence for him to then use it as his defence. Grace Millane murder: Tinder messages with her killer revealed

They probably did discuss sexual likes and dislikes in person but also, imo, he researched everything about her online before they even met.
In those messages, he was quite persistent in meeting up too, not unusual, it does sometime take one to pursue and make it happen, as he says. Unfortunately, this guy's life was spiralling out of control, he couldn't keep the charade up, he owed thousands on the pokey little apartment and had no job.

Another thought, wouldn't Grace be surprised by the tiny apartment? Grace came from a wealthy family, she might have figured out he was lying from the moment she entered the room, no way would an oil manager for an off shore company live in a studio apartment, he'd have a one bedroom with lounge and mini kitchen, imo. She may have asked him too many questions and he silenced her.

 

[Kikixxxx]

This article shows the messages between grace and the killer before they met up. There’s no discussion between them about sexual likes/dislikes so this must have only been discussed in person. I believe the killer must have had at least some discussion with grace for him to know what she was into - otherwise it’s too much of a coincidence for him to then use it as his defence. Grace Millane murder: Tinder messages with her killer revealed

Oh my god reading this actually made me so sad. I wish I could just jump through the screen at that point and tell her not to go

When she goes “ I haven’t said yes yet”

 

[Cherwell]

Another thought, wouldn't Grace be surprised by the tiny apartment? Grace came from a wealthy family, she might have figured out he was lying from the moment she entered the room, no way would an oil manager for an off shore company live in a studio apartment, he'd have a one bedroom with lounge and mini kitchen, imo. She may have asked him too many questions and he silenced her.

I doubt that. He is a serial liar and he would have fabricated an explanation. He had brought women there before, so he probably had a ready string of lies.

 

[All & Forward]

For me it's not about the information being insensitive, it's that - IMO - Grace's interest in BDSM does not make him less culpable.
Continued focus on looking for more details about her sexual interests makes no sense to me. I know you were looking for her Fetlife account so is there something that I'm missing? Something relevant to her murder?

Complete curiosity, as morbid or voyeuristic as it can be.

I was essentially a peer – same age, demographic, education, travel history – so in a way, any social media or internet presence is just a way of normalising it all. I'm not going to be personal or anything, but basically, her sexual interests are the opposite of 'shameful' to me.

 

[All & Forward]

They probably did discuss sexual likes and dislikes in person but also, imo, he researched everything about her online before they even met.
In those messages, he was quite persistent in meeting up too, not unusual, it does sometime take one to pursue and make it happen, as he says. Unfortunately, this guy's life was spiralling out of control, he couldn't keep the charade up, he owed thousands on the pokey little apartment and had no job.

What could he research? He knew her name and social media but what's that going to give away? Some 'liked' pages – maybe what bands she's into – but it's mostly going to be (and is) photos of an extremely normal girl: photos with her friends, on holidays, drinking. There is no real information that could be used to get a real insight into her. And definitely 0 information on her sexual history or interest.

It is interesting though. She was pretty typically hesitant. Girls get waaay more likes than guys on Tinder and way more proposals. She wasn't especially feeling it and then he sees her and isn't as keen as he thought he'd be, he's disappointed, and nearly calls it off. Two hesitant parties and yet he wants to sleep with her and she 'really hits it off with him.' That's just the unpredictability of life.

Some asides:

• it says the messages were sent 'until 3am.' I'm assuming this is the 30th, so the night before they meet up and technically the morning of. Wasn't she with a guy that night? Did she stay at the other guy's house or go back to the hostel?
• are the rest of the chat logs posted anywhere else? I get the general gist and progression from the NZ Herald article, but they paraphrase a lot. I don't know, the raw messages are more real.
• unrelated by is 'shout' an Australian/New Zealand thing? I feel like I've said it in England and people've been confused, but I also assumed it was just an English-Australian (New Zealander) thing.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

What could he research? He knew her name and social media but what's that going to give away? Some 'liked' pages – maybe what bands she's into – but it's mostly going to be (and is) photos of an extremely normal girl: photos with her friends, on holidays, drinking. There is no real information that could be used to get a real insight into her. And definitely 0 information on her sexual history or interest.

It is interesting though. She was pretty typically hesitant. Girls get waaay more likes than guys on Tinder and way more proposals. She wasn't especially feeling it and then he sees her and isn't as keen as he thought he'd be, he's disappointed, and nearly calls it off. Two hesitant parties and yet he wants to sleep with her and she 'really hits it off with him.' That's just the unpredictability of life.

Some asides:

• it says the messages were sent 'until 3am.' I'm assuming this is the 30th, so the night before they meet up and technically the morning of. Wasn't she with a guy that night? Did she stay at the other guy's house or go back to the hostel?
• are the rest of the chat logs posted anywhere else? I get the general gist and progression from the NZ Herald article, but they paraphrase a lot. I don't know, the raw messages are more real.
• unrelated by is 'shout' an Australian/New Zealand thing? I feel like I've said it in England and people've been confused, but I also assumed it was just an English-Australian (New Zealander) thing.

Yep, true, but this other guy said Grace used her full name on Fetlife or Whiplr, not sure which, so she'd be easily found. I'm just going by the accused's history with his controlling and needy traits, researching girl's profiles is one of them. Concerning the other guy, she most likely went back to the hostel and probably wanted to do the same on the night with the accused, imo.

Grace told her friend 'he'd come to London next year', so he told some whopper lies which made him sound like friendship/relationship material, but it was far from the truth. I think she may have figured it out once she was alone with him in his room. His stepbrother said the accused tells ridiculous lies even when they'd called him out, it must be an embarassingly awkward situation. jmo

"He's coming to London next year. I click with him so well. I'll let you know what happens tomorrow," Grace's last message to her friend read.
Grace Millane's message to friend while on date with murder accused sent 'alarm bells'

Edit- 'it's my shout' is used in the UK but maybe, older generation? But in Aus and NZ, younger gen use it too.

 

[All & Forward]

Yep, true, but this other guy said Grace used her full name on Fetlife or Whiplr, not sure which, so she'd be easily found. I'm just going by the accused's history with his controlling and needy traits, researching girl's profiles is one of them. Concerning the other guy, she most likely went back to the hostel and probably wanted to do the same on the night with the accused, imo.

Grace told her friend 'he'd come to London next year', so he told some whopper lies which made him sound like friendship/relationship material, but it was far from the truth. I think she may have figured it out once she was alone with him in his room. His stepbrother said the accused tells ridiculous lies even when they'd called him out, it must be an embarassingly awkward situation. jmo

"He's coming to London next year. I click with him so well. I'll let you know what happens tomorrow," Grace's last message to her friend read.
Grace Millane's message to friend while on date with murder accused sent 'alarm bells'

Edit- 'it's my shout' is used in the UK but maybe, older generation? But in Aus and NZ, younger gen use it too.

From what the Fetlife guy said, I read it as her full name was on the messaging app they used. Fetlife isn't really a messaging app. So I reckon she's gone by a random name or even just 'Grace' on there but then used her actual full name on WhatsApp or whatever.

'Shout' is used by just about every age group here and in every state. As in, in Australia.