IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[drama_farmer]

View attachment 218322
Is this the photo you were referring to from the RC site?

The only issue I have with this graphic (and it might turn into a big one) is that the creator hasn't made it obvious that the image of Chloe "banging" on the Deck 11 lower glass window was cut and pasted from the photo of her at the hockey rink. I can imagine the questions and assumptions throughout social medialand that will be generated when viewers see this overall helpful depiction and assume it actually captures reality. IMO

 

[they'll get you]

Perhaps cruisers just need to read and follow the rules
Royal Caribbean's guest conduct policy, last revised Nov 2018 prior to the incident. The policy that all guests receive a copy of clearly states on the top of Page 2:

"Unsafe Behavior: Sitting, standing, lying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted
——
Of course this is a man who ignores the simple rule of buckling your seat belt / his court violations were posted on thread 1 and I believe in the media thread

IIRC many of these safety requirements are said during the safety drill.

 

[oviedo]

View attachment 218326
The only issue I have with this graphic (and it might turn into a big one) is that the creator hasn't made it obvious that the image of Chloe "banging" on the Deck 11 lower glass window was cut and pasted from the photo of her at the hockey rink. I can imagine the questions and assumptions throughout social medialand that will be generated when viewers see this overall helpful depiction and assume it actually captures reality. IMO

I agree - what is needed is a measurement of the ice hockey rink and her height at the time that photo was taken and then the height of the lower window on the ship - but I think the intent is clear - the attorney said she wanted to bang on the glass and the photo shows she could have without being lifted at all - reasonable people would see this IMO

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

View attachment 218326
The only issue I have with this graphic (and it might turn into a big one) is that the creator hasn't made it obvious that the image of Chloe "banging" on the Deck 11 lower glass window was cut and pasted from the photo of her at the hockey rink. I can imagine the questions and assumptions throughout social medialand that will be generated when viewers see this overall helpful depiction and assume it actually captures reality. IMO

yeah, some people can be a little dense

 

[oviedo]

IIRC many of these safety requirements are said during the safety drill.

Yes they are and you and I will both be cruising and can attest first hand - no link required !

 

[Midwestmom2019]

May want to capture some as other accounts of the this “accident”’have disappeared since July - I saw them and now they are gone - someone was able to get them deleted IMO

Copy the entire story not link bc if link updated, then story changes.

 

[al66pine]

Providing link Requested about Non-Admissibility of Settlement Agreement

.... Do you have a link to more information as to whether it would be admissible or not? I'm not familiar with how all this works in a criminal trial.

@MsBetsy bbm sbm I posted earlier --- if parents and cruiseline reach a settlement relating to (potential) claims arising from Chloe's death, and sign a Settlement Agreement, containing an expansive confidentiality clause and cruiseline's denial of liability or any role in contributing to or causing the death, my opn was that this (hypo) SettAg would not be admissible in the PR crim trial against G'pa, as evd that the cruiseline was negligent or liable/responsible. Your ^ post asked for a link.
Here is a link w quotes re the general rule of evidence - that such agreements are not admissible. I'm not commenting about any other possible evd at G'pa's trial, just the Sett Ag. My rbm below. Hope this helps.

"Rule 408. Compromise Offers and Negotiations *
(a) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of the following is not admissible — on behalf of any party — either to prove or disprove the validity or amount of a disputed claim** or to impeach by a prior inconsistent statement or a contradiction:
(1) furnishing, promising, or offering — or accepting, promising to accept, or offering to accept — a valuable consideration in compromising or attempting to compromise the claim; ....
Notes of Advisory Committee on Proposed Rules
As a matter of general agreement, evidence of an offer-to compromise a claim is not receivable in evidence as an admission of, as the case may be, the validity or invalidity of the claim....exclusion may be based on two grounds. (1) The evidence is irrelevant, since the offer may be motivated by a desire for peace*** rather than from any concession of weakness of position. The validity of this position will vary as the amount of the offer varies in relation to the size of the claim and may also be influenced by other circumstances. (2) a more consistently impressive ground is promotion of the public policy favoring the compromise and settlement of disputes. .... While the rule is ordinarily phrased in terms of offers of compromise, it is apparent that a similar attitude must be taken with respect to completed compromises ....
.... An inevitable effect is to inhibit freedom of communication with respect to compromise, even among lawyers. Another effect is the generation of controversy over whether a given statement falls within or without the protected area. These considerations account for the expansion of the rule herewith to include evidence of .... the offer or completed compromise itself. ****
.... Hence the rule requires that the claim be disputed as to either validity or amount."

The quote above is from Federal Rules of Evidence, and Committee Notes (not PR law or Rules of Evd, as I was not able to find it in English), but this same principle is common to many states' rules of evd and has been in place for many decades.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Rule 408. Compromise Offers and Negotiations. Federal Rules of Evidence

** The "disputed claim" here initially between parents and cruiseline, is whether cruiseline had any liability, responsibility, or role in contributing to or causing Chloe's death. Of course after signing a SettAgreement, that. claim is no longer disputed between parents and cruiseline. But liability for Chloe's death is still open to dispute by others, such as PR prosecuting G'pa for NegHom.

*** As @Midwestmom2019 posted earlier--- settling to 'avoid the high cost and expense of litigation,' etc. Maybe @Midwestmom2019 or another verified atty or legal professional can explain it better.

**** The "completed compromise" here is the SettAgmt document that parents and cruiseline signed.

 

[beatrixpotter]

And if you are brave google images of Chloe falling from the cruise ship - I’m not going to post what I found as it’s just too much IMO

There are pictures out there of her falling from the cruise ship?!?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Yes. I’m the one confusing everyone! Looks like he had her on the rail. Not the ledge.

IMHO I think he stood her on the railing (bannister) and then sat her down. Maybe first sat her on railing but then on the window ledge (track).
Video please. We all want to know how this happened.

 

[oviedo]

IMHO I think he stood her on the railing (bannister) and then sat her down. Maybe first sat her on railing but then on the window ledge (track).
Video please. We all want to know how this happened.

I agree the video needs to be released since the press have it - there are images out there if you search ....

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Providing link Requested about Non-Admissibility of Settlement Agreement
@MsBetsy bbm sbm I posted earlier --- if parents and cruiseline reach a settlement relating to (potential) claims arising from Chloe's death, and sign a Settlement Agreement, containing an expansive confidentiality clause and cruiseline's denial of liability or any role in contributing to or causing the death, my opn was that this (hypo) SettAg would not be admissible in the PR crim trial against G'pa, as evd that the cruiseline was negligent or liable/responsible. Your ^ post asked for a link.
Here is a link w quotes re the general rule of evidence - that such agreements are not admissible. I'm not commenting about any other possible evd at G'pa's trial, just the Sett Ag. My rbm below. Hope this helps.

"Rule 408. Compromise Offers and Negotiations *
(a) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of the following is not admissible — on behalf of any party — either to prove or disprove the validity or amount of a disputed claim** or to impeach by a prior inconsistent statement or a contradiction:
(1) furnishing, promising, or offering — or accepting, promising to accept, or offering to accept — a valuable consideration in compromising or attempting to compromise the claim; ....
Notes of Advisory Committee on Proposed Rules
As a matter of general agreement, evidence of an offer-to compromise a claim is not receivable in evidence as an admission of, as the case may be, the validity or invalidity of the claim....exclusion may be based on two grounds. (1) The evidence is irrelevant, since the offer may be motivated by a desire for peace*** rather than from any concession of weakness of position. The validity of this position will vary as the amount of the offer varies in relation to the size of the claim and may also be influenced by other circumstances. (2) a more consistently impressive ground is promotion of the public policy favoring the compromise and settlement of disputes. .... While the rule is ordinarily phrased in terms of offers of compromise, it is apparent that a similar attitude must be taken with respect to completed compromises ....
.... An inevitable effect is to inhibit freedom of communication with respect to compromise, even among lawyers. Another effect is the generation of controversy over whether a given statement falls within or without the protected area. These considerations account for the expansion of the rule herewith to include evidence of .... the offer or completed compromise itself. ****
.... Hence the rule requires that the claim be disputed as to either validity or amount."

The quote above is from Federal Rules of Evidence, and Committee Notes (not PR law or Rules of Evd, as I was not able to find it in English), but this same principle is common to many states' rules of evd and has been in place for many decades.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Rule 408. Compromise Offers and Negotiations. Federal Rules of Evidence

** The "disputed claim" here initially between parents and cruiseline, is whether cruiseline had any liability, responsibility, or role in contributing to or causing Chloe's death. Of course after signing a SettAgreement, that. claim is no longer disputed between parents and cruiseline. But liability for Chloe's death is still open to dispute by others, such as PR prosecuting G'pa for NegHom.

*** As @Midwestmom2019 posted earlier--- settling to 'avoid the high cost and expense of litigation,' etc. Maybe @Midwestmom2019 or another verified atty or legal professional can explain it better.

**** The "completed compromise" here is the SettAgmt document that parents and cruiseline signed.

Great info.
They have agreed to disagree. So claim is resolved. Neither side admits liability.
We want to stop arguing and go on with life.
Sometimes money changes hands, sometimes not. Confidential all the way around. As to facts, damages, everything put to rest. Disclaimer after disclaimer.
If any side leaks info, deal off the table. Any funds revert to paying party. And potential lawsuit for damages for revealing settlement terms and conditions.

 

[they'll get you]

View attachment 218326
The only issue I have with this graphic (and it might turn into a big one) is that the creator hasn't made it obvious that the image of Chloe "banging" on the Deck 11 lower glass window was cut and pasted from the photo of her at the hockey rink. I can imagine the questions and assumptions throughout social medialand that will be generated when viewers see this overall helpful depiction and assume it actually captures reality. IMO

Well done to the person who did that photo.

 

[al66pine]

How Can @oviedo Show the Distances or Scale in Pix?

The windows have inside latches (think latches facing the pool deck) and are easily accessible by passengers I’ve opened them myself - and the railing is a good 6” inside the open window ledge IMO but I will measure it next month ! I do t believe anything the attorney is saying because his accounts have also changed IMO

@oviedo bbm Glad you'll have a chance to do this. You mentioned measuring w hands or arms.

If an actual ruler/tape measure would make you feel too conspicuous, maybe there's something else to use to show the scale more precisely than hands?
Just spit-balling an idea here. Start w a thick magazine, and cover spine w white adhesive tape or paper. Then w a black Sharpie/felt-tip, make a mark for ea inch. When you lay magazine the right way on the rail, the slash marks should be visible in pix.

Or??? What else could oviedo use as a camouflaged ruler on this undercover mission? What do passengers carry around on board?

 

[LietKynes]

And if you are brave google images of Chloe falling from the cruise ship - I’m not going to post what I found as it’s just too much IMO

In msm ?
Afaik, there are no photos of her falling .
There is one of her covered with a white plastic sheet.
People defending G-pa might think otherwise if they see what he did to her.

Cruise ship death: Royal Caribbean passenger charged after dropping toddler from ship | Cruise | Travel | Express.co.uk
Shows the gravity of the incident.

And in the video taken immediately after from the outside of the ship... only one window was open.
Did G-pa open that window ?

Here's this "gem".
Sorry if it was already linked :

Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship - ABC News
"...in the children's water park play area. Anello put her on a wood railing in front of a wall of glass windows..."
bolding mine

Same old song and dance.
"...They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window..."
bolding mine

This will be significant if it goes to trial.
He looked THROUGH that window.
If it was closed-- he'd have bumped his noggin on the glass.

"I think a lot of people don't understand the unique configuration of the ship because it has this window that sort of has this curvature with this railing that goes across it," Winkleman said. "So I think some people may be thought he was dangling her out the window, but I THINK it's very clear from the video that it's not the case."
bbm
caps mine

Carefully choosing your words, eh , Winkleman ?

But there's this :
"...Prosecutors say they have witnesses, both on and off the island, they plan to call to testify.
“We’re comfortable with the evidence that we have,” prosecutor Ivette Nieves told ABC News this week. “We have a solid case...” bbm

Darn those annoying witnesses !

It could even stop the lawsuit payout and possibly ensure that Chloe has some justice.
And make Winkleman look like an incompetent charlatan.

And if G-pa gets uncomfortable in prison without his favorite foods and a shrinking beer belly -- at least he has a life.
Even 3 years in prison is nothing.

Chloe had her entire life ahead of her.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

How Can @oviedo Show the Distances or Scale in Pix?

@oviedo bbm Glad you'll have a chance to do this. You mentioned measuring w hands or arms.

If an actual ruler/tape measure would make you feel too conspicuous, maybe there's something else to use to show the scale more precisely than hands?
Just spit-balling an idea here. Start w a thick magazine, and cover spine w white adhesive tape or paper. Then w a black Sharpie/felt-tip, make a mark for ea inch. When you lay magazine the right way on the rail, the slash marks should be visible in pix.

Or??? What else could oviedo use as a camouflaged ruler on this undercover mission? What do passengers carry around on board?

There's an app on my iPhone that measures.

 

[they'll get you]

Yes they are and you and I will both be cruising and can attest first hand - no link required !

I’ll try to record what’s said in the safety drill if my phone picks it up and transcribe to you all.

There are railings around the outside of the ship with horizontal wires a small child could maybe climb through but I notice children are highly supervised.

It’s a bloody big high ship!

For further clarification these things are called ‘HANDRAILS’

Not sitting, climbing or swinging rails.

 

[fabvab]

A dollar bill is 6 inches long and 2.5 inches long. I’ve used one several times to measure things. Had a salesman ask me once why I was holding my dollar bill up to a microwave in the store.

 

[sl222]

No need to beg. Not everyone has the time to review each thread in an in depth manner.

I’m going to leave you all to it!!

Yes, that was not directed at you.

 

[they'll get you]

Yes they are and you and I will both be cruising and can attest first hand - no link required !

Oviedo I think we might be busy during our cruise.
Oh my, I can see myself packing a carpenters’ tape, ladder and a surveyors level.

 

[they'll get you]

A dollar bill is 6 inches long and 2.5 inches long. I’ve used one several times to measure things. Had a salesman ask me once why I was holding my dollar bill up to a microwave in the store.

Our Aussie dollar won’t help.