Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[gregjrichards]

Been reading through the threads tonight and feeling very sad that it’s almost Christmas and Abby and Libby’s family still have no answers as to who or why their beautiful girls were taken from them.
I have also been thinking about some posters who come on WS for a very short time- seem to be from the Delphi area or at least it seems that way- they have a vast amount of information and then Poof...they are gone. I always get an uneasy feeling about those posters -maybe it’s just me
I still have my original POI but I must admit I have doubted myself many times. My POI would seem like the most unlikely person on the surface but researching his past I do believe he is a troubled young man with lots of issues. I have discounted him somewhat over the last few months as he is taller than the projected killer- then today I went back and looked at some screenshots I had saved from the day the girls were found and he is at the fire station volunteering for the search. I noticed 3 things that really hit me. 1- he had the right hair color and Bieber haircut which is now changed-it’s lighter and shorter. 2-He is also wearing jeans that look to be baggy on him and too long. 3- He walks with his body leaning forward, head down, and in the photos does not appear nearly as tall as I know he is.
Just a lot of rambling here and strictly my own opinion
I am waivering between one perp or two. There is no evidence that I am aware to indicate two perps but the change in the sketches makes me wonder. One other thing that probably means absolutely nothing but one of those things I just can’t get out of my head-my POI has a friend/acquaintance who to me looks very much like NBG sketch and this person has a younger sister who looks like she could be Abby’s twin
I know there is nothing to back these feelings up but it’s one of those things I just can’t shake
Strictly MOO

There are a lot of members and former members who posted a lot in the beginning here many of whom we believed to be local. I personally don’t find that concerning or sinister I appreciate it is difficult to keep people’s attention on a case when it has been going on nearly three years without significant developments or arrests. People have their own lives and that has to take priority for them. I don’t know about everyone else but for me personally it is difficult to find new thoughts, ideas or news to posts when the majority of it has been discussed at length during the 118 threads.

I am hopeful a lot of members will start posting about the case again when something of major significance happens. On the wonderful day an arrest is made it will be hard to keep up with all the posts.

 

[sunshineray]

Retired homicide investigator offers insights into how Delphi double murder case might be solved
FEBRUARY 17, 2017

“”The first thing you look for is a motive,” said retired IMPD homicide captain Robert Snow. “Quite often, 90 percent of the time that will lead you to a suspect.”

Focusing on everyone who knew the two victims, Abigail Williams and Liberty German, is another critical early step.

“In any case you always look at the victim too. Not that they`re responsible, but you want to know who were they interacting with,” said Snow.

Snow doesn`t have any inside information about the Carroll County deaths, but says truly random killings are very unusual.

“If it turns out to be a random case, that makes it much more difficult because the motive isn't there to point to someone,” said Snow.”

I found this piece written by Clint Van Zandt all about motive. Even though showing motive in a court of law is not required by prosecutors to get a conviction, it often is "the thing" out of the what, where, why and how that leads LE to the killer, the who.

Criminals' motives are elusive to investigators

 

[sunshineray]

Stranger on stranger crime from a non-local. That's the simple explanation and most logical. None of the traditional methods are going to lead to him.

The former prosecutor is accustomed to more common crimes that do involve locals and do involve familiarity.

I don't think LE would say what they did in that April 2019 PC if they really didn't know the killer was local. All that hiding in plain sight, most likely a local, someone we've interviewed [or in a family we interviewed] wouldn't have been included if he was a non-local stranger. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Always interesting to read the perspective of a seasoned LE type on a case like this one. I just can't fathom what a "motive" would be in this case.



What would motivate someone to do this?

I wonder a lot if the girls were catfished. You had LE saying early on, warning adults to know what your children are up to. It still seems a misplaced comment to me. If you think of Abby and Libby as just two kids taking advantage of an unscheduled school break and unseasonably warm weather, with permission and actually quite small period of time given to them, then the "know what your kids are up to warning" doesn't fit.

Something found out about the girl's activities, probably online, generated that warning. IMO

So what motivates a man to target a young girl (s)? His sick fantasies...and...what else?

I still wonder, because of another local happening if one or both of the girls were told about something by a classmate/friend that could play into motive for the murders. AJMO

 

[Falling Down]

Thank you. But hands in pockets is not what stands out to me from that photo.

It's midday of the search, but before the bodies were found, yet nobody is visible down below. That's the standout aspect. You would think there would be search teams all over the place.

It's the reason I refuse to accept all the reports of people on the trails on the day of the murders. It simply doesn't jive at all with anything I've seen at Delphi or elsewhere. I'm not a believer in specifics when big picture generalities collide. Far more often than not, the generalities prevail. Nobody is on these trails. The reason Abby and Libby became concerned about someone on the bridge is not because he said or did anything unusual beforehand. There's another human being on the bridge, moving toward them. That is the heightened aspect all by itself.

bitterbeatpoet in the Reddit thread said that he has visited the bridge 15 times. Only twice was someone else there, and it was one person each time. Keep that type of reality in mind and you won't go wrong. As I posted earlier, give me the under regarding February 13, 2017.

Another strange aspect from the linked photo is that the area where the bodies were found is almost visible...but not quite. It would be further around the bend of Deer Creek. Photo is taken just before the missing plank. Based on how barren the trees were in February you can see that Bridge Guy needed to take them to that spot or not far away to make sure nothing was visible from the front of the bridge. If he's been there previously and the crime scene area was part of a plan he knows the front of the bridge is the main concern. People will stop there and look at the view but go no further. If someone does proceed on the bridge then fairly soon they can't see the body site anyway, due to so many trees no matter how barren.

Also, the #5 photo at the link (arrows advance) is a decent impression of what the opposite bank looked like on the day the bodies were found. It elevates sharply just beyond the creek. The law enforcement officer in the photo appears to be looking at the bank to see if there is any evidence of where a crossing might have occurred.

As the crow flies, if someone were looking towards the CS from the NW end of the bridge, the distance would be under 1100 feet, in fact around 1060 or so. Walking to the CS from there and through the woods, if that were a possibility, would be around 3/8 of a mile, probably a little less than 3/8.

From the SE end to the CS as the crow flies is around 600 feet.

You're right, it's mainly trees which obscure the views.

These distances can be seen via Google Satellite/Earth, and have been confirmed by people who have been out there marking the distances.

It was challenging for me early on to figure out the orientation of the major points involved, directions, where they walked, where they may have crossed, etc. Once people figured out the paths taken it made sense to me.

 

[Falling Down]

I wonder a lot if the girls were catfished. You had LE saying early on, warning adults to know what your children are up to. It still seems a misplaced comment to me. If you think of Abby and Libby as just two kids taking advantage of an unscheduled school break and unseasonably warm weather, with permission and actually quite small period of time given to them, then the "know what your kids are up to warning" doesn't fit.

Something found out about the girl's activities, probably online, generated that warning. IMO

So what motivates a man to target a young girl (s)? His sick fantasies...and...what else?

I still wonder, because of another local happening if one or both of the girls were told about something by a classmate/friend that could play into motive for the murders. AJMO

Lately I've thought that if BG is indeed local, he could have known about the school schedule and thus targeted juveniles that day for his fantasy. At least it makes sense to me.

I still say BG was out there for a couple of hours waiting for the right time to strike, but i could be way off on that. I'd thought early on the girls were cat fished or somehow BG knew they were going to be there, I wish LE would clear this up once and for all.

 

[stattlich1]

What would motivate someone to do this?

All speculation, of course.

1. a random killing by a murderer who did not know the girls, to include the possibility of being lured there via online contact of some persuasion
2. to cover up a crime uncovered by the girls. The girls possibly stumbled on to some criminal behavior that the killer simply could not permit to go public
3. crazed druggies in the vicinity that day, the murder committed while the killer was under the influence of drugs/alcohol
4. retribution revolving around criminal behavior of any one of a several family members
5. one or more of the girls may have been involved in something. I stand to be lambasted for this comment, however, a true detective would consider it.
6. a sexual assault by a rapist, gone awry
7. anger, jealousy, rage, of jilted boyfriend

This is my opinion, MOO....the possibility of more than one person being involved does exist. There are numerous, NUMEROUS, facts of this case that are NOT known to the public. LE has made that clear.

 

[sunshineray]

All speculation, of course.

1. a random killing by a murderer who did not know the girls, to include the possibility of being lured there via online contact of some persuasion
2. to cover up a crime uncovered by the girls. The girls possibly stumbled on to some criminal behavior that the killer simply could not permit to go public
3. crazed druggies in the vicinity that day, the murder committed while the killer was under the influence of drugs/alcohol
4. retribution revolving around criminal behavior of any one of a several family members
5. one or more of the girls may have been involved in something. I stand to be lambasted for this comment, however, a true detective would consider it.
6. a sexual assault by a rapist, gone awry
7. anger, jealousy, rage, of jilted boyfriend

This is my opinion, MOO....the possibility of more than one person being involved does exist. There are numerous, NUMEROUS, facts of this case that are NOT known to the public. LE has made that clear.

Good list. I've thought of all these in turn. One I find pause with is a rapist choosing to attack two older girls together (unless he had an accomplice). It's a very risky move to do that and in the middle of that afternoon. IMO

 

[Thelastleg]

Been reading through the threads tonight and feeling very sad that it’s almost Christmas and Abby and Libby’s family still have no answers as to who or why their beautiful girls were taken from them.
I have also been thinking about some posters who come on WS for a very short time- seem to be from the Delphi area or at least it seems that way- they have a vast amount of information and then Poof...they are gone. I always get an uneasy feeling about those posters -maybe it’s just me
I still have my original POI but I must admit I have doubted myself many times. My POI would seem like the most unlikely person on the surface but researching his past I do believe he is a troubled young man with lots of issues. I have discounted him somewhat over the last few months as he is taller than the projected killer- then today I went back and looked at some screenshots I had saved from the day the girls were found and he is at the fire station volunteering for the search. I noticed 3 things that really hit me. 1- he had the right hair color and Bieber haircut which is now changed-it’s lighter and shorter. 2-He is also wearing jeans that look to be baggy on him and too long. 3- He walks with his body leaning forward, head down, and in the photos does not appear nearly as tall as I know he is.
Just a lot of rambling here and strictly my own opinion
I am waivering between one perp or two. There is no evidence that I am aware to indicate two perps but the change in the sketches makes me wonder. One other thing that probably means absolutely nothing but one of those things I just can’t get out of my head-my POI has a friend/acquaintance who to me looks very much like NBG sketch and this person has a younger sister who looks like she could be Abby’s twin
I know there is nothing to back these feelings up but it’s one of those things I just can’t shake
Strictly MOO

I have wondered about the point you make regarding the posters who are on for a short time. In September there was a new poster that said that they were local and had just found WS. Over the space of a few days they had made around 60 posts. Her information seemed reliable and she was inundated with questions which she answered. Then it just stopped, nothing posted. I followed that poster and although they don't post they were still online viewing until around November. Not making out that this is suspicious but would like to know why they stopped so suddenly.

 

[sunshineray]

As the crow flies, if someone were looking towards the CS from the NW end of the bridge, the distance would be under 1100 feet, in fact around 1060 or so. Walking to the CS from there and through the woods, if that were a possibility, would be around 3/8 of a mile, probably a little less than 3/8.

From the SE end to the CS as the crow flies is around 600 feet.

You're right, it's mainly trees which obscure the views.

These distances can be seen via Google Satellite/Earth, and have been confirmed by people who have been out there marking the distances.

It was challenging for me early on to figure out the orientation of the major points involved, directions, where they walked, where they may have crossed, etc. Once people figured out the paths taken it made sense to me.

FD, I'm glad you included that last paragraph. I have a hard time with directional stuff looking at maps of places I've never physically been. When you say NW end of the bridge are you talking about the side of the bridge they started at or wound at after crossing over? I know it's probably been explained a whole bunch of times already but I still need help

 

[MichelleBlue]

All IMO...If the girls were catfished on SC, is it possible the person they were communicating with used their SC location to see where they were? I would think LE would be able to tell who they communicated with on SC though? Or maybe if they were catfished, they planned to meet up with a boy or boys their age? So when they saw BG approaching they thought it was odd or funny that here is this old guy approaching & we are expecting to see ______. (Maybe even checking that person's SC location to see they were on location, but some old guy is approaching).
That would explain some of LE early comments. By how could theynot know who he was at this point? Would he be smart enough to communicate using a burner phone?

Sorry, if this has all been discussed already!

 

[sunshineray]

All IMO...If the girls were catfished on SC, is it possible the person they were communicating with used their SC location to see where they were? I would think LE would be able to tell who they communicated with on SC though? Or maybe if they were catfished, they planned to meet up with a boy or boys their age? So when they saw BG approaching they thought it was odd or funny that here is this old guy approaching & we are expecting to see ______. (Maybe even checking that person's SC location to see they were on location, but some old guy is approaching).
That would explain some of LE early comments. By how could theynot know who he was at this point? Would he be smart enough to communicate using a burner phone?

Sorry, if this has all been discussed already!

Is that how SC works? Just logging on makes your location known? Or can you have that feature turned off? TIA

 

[MichelleBlue]

You have to enable your location & then your SC friends can see where you are very specifically. It is a very popular feature with kids in this age group. And I believe was available in 2017.

 

[Ozoner]

Lately I've thought that if BG is indeed local, he could have known about the school schedule and thus targeted juveniles that day for his fantasy. At least it makes sense to me.

I still say BG was out there for a couple of hours waiting for the right time to strike, but i could be way off on that. I'd thought early on the girls were cat fished or somehow BG knew they were going to be there, I wish LE would clear this up once and for all.

LE hasn't pushed the catfishing/social media angle at all; that tells me that it isn't a fruitful line of inquiry. If it were, then the crime would've been solved within weeks.
-
I agree with you that BG was there for a while, waiting for a suitable victim.
He wouldn't have needed to know that the schools were closed; he might have expected teens to hang out there after school.
-
It seems like BG had some familiarity with the area. Theoretically he could have planned the crime using Google Earth (or whatever), but it's far more likely that he had been to the area at least once before.
Moreover, out-of-state license plates tend to be noticed in a small town, and no one has mentioned any. Cops in particular tend to notice (and often run) out-of-state plates. Therefore, it's extremely likely that BG is from Indiana and probably Carroll County or one of the adjacent counties. (Local shouldn't be taken to mean Delphi specifically. I've spent some time in rural areas; the people in such areas tend to have some familiarity with recreational areas at least a few towns over.)

 

[MingyMoo]

Well I have been reading along as I have for the last 2 years+ and I still can't get out of my mind that A&L were in the wrong place at the wrong time and saw or heard something they wern't meant to see or hear.

I actually do think there was more than one person aware of the unfolding events at Monon High Bridge albeit not both involved directly in the murders of Abby & Libby.

One is aware of the reason and the circumstances leading to their deaths.

I think it is that person DC is calling out to and pleading with.

I am not about to spell my actual scenario out as I am a simple Arm Chair Web Sleuther from the UK and certainly don't want to put people under the microscope for a hunch and a possible scenario.

What ever the actual scenario is I still think A&L Saw/ Witnessed/ Heard something they wern't meant to and whatever that something was, caused Libby to do what she did with her phone. Because somebody somewhere was doing something wrong and that someone was caught out.

Just My Opinion nothing more.
MingyMoo

 

[rainwaterstill]

Always interesting to read the perspective of a seasoned LE type on a case like this one. I just can't fathom what a "motive" would be in this case.



What would motivate someone to do this?

Revenge? Not on the girls, but getting back at a family member for some imaginary slight?

 

[FrostedGlass]

LE hasn't pushed the catfishing/social media angle at all; that tells me that it isn't a fruitful line of inquiry. If it were, then the crime would've been solved within weeks.
-

RSBM
Please go read about Brian Kil; it took LE almost a year and a half to catch him. He had multiple FB accounts and tauted LE often.

IMO the social media angle is well worth examining.

 

[sunshineray]

Well I have been reading along as I have for the last 2 years+ and I still can't get out of my mind that A&L were in the wrong place at the wrong time and saw or heard something they wern't meant to see or hear.

I actually do think there was more than one person aware of the unfolding events at Monon High Bridge albeit not both involved directly in the murders of Abby & Libby.

One is aware of the reason and the circumstances leading to their deaths.

I think it is that person DC is calling out to and pleading with.

I am not about to spell my actual scenario out as I am a simple Arm Chair Web Sleuther from the UK and certainly don't want to put people under the microscope for a hunch and a possible scenario.

What ever the actual scenario is I still think A&L Saw/ Witnessed/ Heard something they wern't meant to and whatever that something was, caused Libby to do what she did with her phone. Because somebody somewhere was doing something wrong and that someone was caught out.

Just My Opinion nothing more.
MingyMoo

Mingy, After finding out just how many people were in the area of the trails that day I think you could be exactly right in your theory. It's on my list.

 

[taximama24]

You have to enable your location & then your SC friends can see where you are very specifically. It is a very popular feature with kids in this age group. And I believe was available in 2017.

I had the same thought but confirmed that SnapMaps was not available until summer of 2017. I do still think it was possible Libby and Abby went there based on plans that were made through social media though, but no it was not possible at the time that someone knew they were there based on their location in SC.

 

[Thelastleg]

FD, I'm glad you included that last paragraph. I have a hard time with directional stuff looking at maps of places I've never physically been. When you say NW end of the bridge are you talking about the side of the bridge they started at or wound at after crossing over? I know it's probably been explained a whole bunch of times already but I still need help

I too was confused. This my understanding now. I'm sure FD will correct me if I am wrong. The NW end of the bridge is the side that the girls started out on and also finished up on. This is the side closest to the drop off point. They made their way across the bridge from NW to South side. From there they somehow got across the creek back to the North West side. I hope this hasn't confused you even more and apologies if I am wrong.