Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[inkpink]

This is an intriguing case which is just starting to gain some traction due to her daughter's relentless efforts.

Here is the facebook page:

Missing Person Marion Barter

...and a just released podcast 'The Lady Vanishes'

Left Behind | The Lady Vanishes on acast

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Thread #1 - Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997
Thread #2

 

[Darling136]

In order to keep a case active we need a link to a msm or le information.

7 News Sydney

 

[KiwiNZ]

Taken from the Facebook page where someone compared the postcard to the arrival form and the word Australia. Looks the same handwriting to me.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just catching up on some posts here, no, I don't think there's anything missing from this card, seems to be completely intact, nothing missing.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Medicare info is a bit different to the patient notes that would be taken by the doctor. In my experience subpoenaing Medicare it will just say for example “consult type - general” or “standard consult” or something generic like that, it will tell you the practice name they attended but not what the consult pertained to. Those notes stay with the medical practice and may be destroyed after 7 years, but some practices do keep them. If the practice closes or changes hands then there’s a slim chance of the records still existing (again in my experiences with medical records only).

Yes absolutely the doc notes would be so much more informative and it would be ideal to have those as we would know exactly why she was there and possibly her emotional state. But what I was saying is that the Medicare (PBS, test results etc) exist independently of the individual doctor so the information is not lost even if it is less detailed. If Marion was experiencing a serious/terminal illness it would be reflected in these records (the tests ordered, prescriptions written, specialist appointments rather than GP etc).

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

Taken from the Facebook page where someone compared the postcard to the arrival form and the word Australia. Looks the same handwriting to me.

I’m 99% sure it’s her handwriting. From the upper case writing we have of Marions it is very similar. I also saw a QLD on a postcard she had written and it also was the same as the passenger card.
From her lower case signature a number of letters are similar including the ‘l’ in remakel which is so similar to the l’s on the passenger card.
The only thing that might not be her writing is the passport number as it looks like it was written later maybe with another pen - her passport was probably up in her bags above where you sit when she wrote the passenger card out. The passport number was probably written as she stood in the queue at the airport when she then had her passport. It could have been her who wrote the number hurriedly in the queue or did the passport security person...

My biggest take from this is that I think she was planning on going back to Europe (Luxembourg) because why write this if it wasn’t true. There was no reason to lie on the passenger card. And why write ‘home duties’ when she was a teacher? Maybe because that was her new job in Europe after being married.
I think she got married over there and then decided to go back to Australia to get her money out to take back to Europe. I think she didn’t want to electronically transfer the money as she didn’t want to be traced so wanted to get the cash out in person.

I think the NSW police will now uncover more information in Europe that was never investigated.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

Taken from the Facebook page where someone compared the postcard to the arrival form and the word Australia. Looks the same handwriting to me.

.

 

[sunnynz]

My biggest take from this is that I think she was planning on going back to Europe (Luxembourg) because why write this if it wasn’t true. There was no reason to lie on the passenger card. And why write ‘home duties’ when she was a teacher? Maybe because that was her new job in Europe after being married.
I think she got married over there and then decided to go back to Australia to get her money out to take back to Europe. I think she didn’t want to electronically transfer the money as she didn’t want to be traced so wanted to get the cash out in person.

I think the NSW police will now uncover more information in Europe that was never investigated.

this seems more and more like the most likely scenario. I hope with the police involvement now they can get DNA tested against Jane does in Europe.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It's sounding like it could could have been some sort of a "marriage" scam which might have included a "fake" wedding.
Maybe the unknown man at Maccas was the "groom"

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Quoted from CI White (police) evidence from the NCAT decision.
"The agency asserted it ran the triple zero service as a confidential service."

"All information recieved by the triple zero service is confidential. The community expects the triple zero service to be confidential."

For those who have read the NCAT decision do you interpret this as being an example CI White (police) gives to support the arguement that information provided to police is confidential (and could undermine community trust if released) - or could it be that a triple zero call was recieved about Marion??

In another paragraph (discussing prejudice supply of info to an agency) there's this
"...is not concerned with the question of whether the particular doctor whose report is disclosed will give similar information but whether the agency will be able to obtain such information". Do you think this is an example used to operationalise the clause or is there perhaps a doctors report in the file??

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Another thought about the NCAT document. The bank documents mentioned the table where the release/withhold information is listed, is interesting.
The documents from NAB (doc 89), CBA (doc 98) and St George (doc 88) says the data relates to 2007. The documents from QLD teachers credit union (doc 78 & 85) 2008 and the Westpac document (doc 77) relates to 2011.
It doesnt neccessary mean there was any banking activity, or of there was when it occurred but I think it's interesting that the enquiries/correspondence with the banks happened at differing times.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I’m 99% sure it’s her handwriting. From the upper case writing we have of Marions it is very similar. I also saw a QLD on a postcard she had written and it also was the same as the passenger card.
From her lower case signature a number of letters are similar including the ‘l’ in remakel which is so similar to the l’s on the passenger card.
The only thing that might not be her writing is the passport number as it looks like it was written later maybe with another pen - her passport was probably up in her bags above where you sit when she wrote the passenger card out. The passport number was probably written as she stood in the queue at the airport when she then had her passport. It could have been her who wrote the number hurriedly in the queue or did the passport security person...

My biggest take from this is that I think she was planning on going back to Europe (Luxembourg) because why write this if it wasn’t true. There was no reason to lie on the passenger card. And why write ‘home duties’ when she was a teacher? Maybe because that was her new job in Europe after being married.
I think she got married over there and then decided to go back to Australia to get her money out to take back to Europe. I think she didn’t want to electronically transfer the money as she didn’t want to be traced so wanted to get the cash out in person.

I think the NSW police will now uncover more information in Europe that was never investigated.

Only Florabella did not leave Australia. Her passport was not used after she returned to Australia Aug 97. She also withdrew her money in Australian dollars. If Marion was intending to get her money and go back overseas she would have had to exchange it into foreign currency. Money exchanges require identification and dont hold large sums - her best bet would have been the bank, they could have ordered the cash in for her. I'm pretty sure you have to declare to customs if you are carrying over a certain amount of cash which would create a record.
Perhaps Marion completed her incoming passenger card to make it appear as though she was returning to the UK and confuse the focus of any future search for her. She didnt stay at the Novatel as indicated and while she noted an 8 day stay she was still here on Oct 15 when she closed her Colonial account so perhaps the other information is bogus too

 

[Mjjj14]

Yes absolutely the doc notes would be so much more informative and it would be ideal to have those as we would know exactly why she was there and possibly her emotional state. But what I was saying is that the Medicare (PBS, test results etc) exist independently of the individual doctor so the information is not lost even if it is less detailed. If Marion was experiencing a serious/terminal illness it would be reflected in these records (the tests ordered, prescriptions written, specialist appointments rather than GP etc).

Ah yes you’re right! Sorry I misunderstood what you meant!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I cant find a copy of the form you had to fill out in 1997 to change your name in Queensland, but the current form is available on line.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwikivDv6MzmAhVV63MBHWPmCtEQFjADegQIChAC&url=https://www.publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/34299d4a-ef46-4b7c-af61-8ad0f1f6b761/resource/be1c251a-f26d-4ea6-b095-717052a9e2da/download/change-name-adult-over-18-years.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3dGxsTQHBVi_CJQICGj6fV

Garry Sheehan had a copy of the change of name form- I wonder what Marion put in as the reason for wanting to change her name, and if that played part in his determination that Marion was not missing?

"There is no standard form for a deed poll." This was back in 1997 - Trove 8 October 1997 - Brisbane - good bit of info here:
08 Oct 1997 - Changing your name by Deed Poll - Archived Website - Trove
Post #168

 

[Joni C]

Just catching up on some posts here, no, I don't think there's anything missing from this card, seems to be completely intact, nothing missing.

Confirming there are no redactions on the card I received via NAA. Joni

 

[Mjjj14]

I’m 99% sure it’s her handwriting. From the upper case writing we have of Marions it is very similar. I also saw a QLD on a postcard she had written and it also was the same as the passenger card.
From her lower case signature a number of letters are similar including the ‘l’ in remakel which is so similar to the l’s on the passenger card.
The only thing that might not be her writing is the passport number as it looks like it was written later maybe with another pen - her passport was probably up in her bags above where you sit when she wrote the passenger card out. The passport number was probably written as she stood in the queue at the airport when she then had her passport. It could have been her who wrote the number hurriedly in the queue or did the passport security person...

My biggest take from this is that I think she was planning on going back to Europe (Luxembourg) because why write this if it wasn’t true. There was no reason to lie on the passenger card. And why write ‘home duties’ when she was a teacher? Maybe because that was her new job in Europe after being married.
I think she got married over there and then decided to go back to Australia to get her money out to take back to Europe. I think she didn’t want to electronically transfer the money as she didn’t want to be traced so wanted to get the cash out in person.

I think the NSW police will now uncover more information in Europe that was never investigated.

I used to think this too, however I’ve been doing a lot of research about obtaining European citizenship - I stared with Luxembourg and then looked into other countries such as France and Italy.

Rules have changed slightly since 1997, however I don’t think it was possible for her to travel there and get married AND then get citizenship of that country in such a small timeframe. Most of these countries require a continued term of residence in said country (5 years is the standard timeframe), so unless they’ve somehow managed to fool Luxembourg or some other country into believing she had a continued term of residence there to be able to grant her citizenship and then in turn a visa, it isn’t possible that she’s left the country again. The only other way she could have left in my opinion, is if she illegally acquired a passport (possible and also was done in other cases) or left by some other illegal channel.

Has anyone else been looking into citizenship? I haven’t looked into the rules for Hong Kong yet and I’m sure there are other European countries that’s rules differ from the above.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

Only Florabella did not leave Australia. Her passport was not used after she returned to Australia Aug 97. She also withdrew her money in Australian dollars. If Marion was intending to get her money and go back overseas she would have had to exchange it into foreign currency. Money exchanges require identification and dont hold large sums - her best bet would have been the bank, they could have ordered the cash in for her. I'm pretty sure you have to declare to customs if you are carrying over a certain amount of cash which would create a record.
Perhaps Marion completed her incoming passenger card to make it appear as though she was returning to the UK and confuse the focus of any future search for her. She didnt stay at the Novatel as indicated and while she noted an 8 day stay she was still here on Oct 15 when she closed her Colonial account so perhaps the other information is bogus too

Very good point about her passport not being used again!
It’s probably unlikely she left on another passport. Possible but unlikely.
That means she either was killed by someone else, she suicided, she is still alive most likely under another name or she died under another name. Probably most likely she was killed. I guess when you are withdrawing a lot of money (if she did herself) it would put her at risk.

 

[Josiegirl62]

I wonder if the name on the Passenger Card has any link to either the anonymous phone tip, (sounds silly I know) or possibly to Armidale. Hence the redaction of the name

 

[Josiegirl62]

Thinking about the last podcast after Sally had the interview with the new Investigating officer, she was clear in the fact that she had been provided information, that was to be kept confidential. Subsequent to this there was the decision from NCAT.
I wonder (again) if some of the information that was provided at that meeting was information that was then not released by the courts. I feel she clearly has been given more information, but is unable to tell us. Is this information the undisclosed information? Just wondering!

 

[Sophie-Renee]

this seems more and more like the most likely scenario. I hope with the police involvement now they can get DNA tested against Jane does in Europe.

This seems the most logical explanation. However, the problem is there is no obvious movements by Marion after October 1997. So does no movement include checks for floraballa remakel? When they say no trace or record of anything in her name do they mean Marion, florabella or both? If both, does this includes flights back out of Australia? If so, could she have changed her name yet again from florabella?

Or the alternative is, she didn't change her name but something happened to her. If she in fact intended to stay on the gold Coast and not return to Europe and was living in that general coastal area, what are the chances of something happened to her and.. as awful as it is to say, no body would ever be found because the coast was close enough... and perhaps over time no real searches of the sea or for remains have ever been done in the most likely place. Or are there any remains found off the gold Coast which have never been identified, because they would be the next to check.

Something happened after October 15th. She either changed her name or Marion did something we have no record of, florabella did something there is no record of or... Marion was either killed or commuted suicide. There are really 5 possibilities as to her fate, but the sort of middle of October to end of october 1997 is a crucial few weeks to look at.