IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

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Geez! I hadn't even thought about if there might have been anyone right there on the ground, who may have seen her hit the dock... That would give me nightmares for life. Ugh.
Or that she could have hit, landed upon, and killed an innocent pedestrian.

In addition to pedestrian witnesses. He could have physically harmed others
 
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I like you facetious answer best.
Because as well all know, everyone wants to go on a cruise where windows don’t open, and the fresh ocean breeze has to be imagined. It’s too risky to allow people to use basic common sense, and expect them not to balance their children on a ledge where they can easily fall to their deaths.
No one has ever dropped a child from those windows except SA. If that's not proof who was at fault here, SA, or the window, I don't know what is!
 
Geez! I hadn't even thought about if there might have been anyone right there on the ground, who may have seen her hit the dock... That would give me nightmares for life. Ugh.

I think it's safe to say that there were, indeed, people on the dock who witnessed Chloe's fall. When a ship is in port, especially on embarkation day, the dock is teeming with activity. Passengers from the previous voyage disembark. As soon as local authorities have cleared the ship, embarkation of new passengers begins. In the meantime, there are dock workers delivering food and other supplies to the ship. Luggage handlers are loading bags onto the ship via conveyor. The vessel is undergoing refueling, exterior cleaning, repairs, etc. Some crew members may disembark for a few hours. There is heavy security presence that includes cruise line personnel and local authorities. Not everyone on the dock would have necessarily noticed Chloe's tragic fall, but I feel certain that there were multiple witnesses on the dock.
 
BBM, snipped for brevity

No offense, but you need to stop making uncorroborated allegations about something you don't know anything about. There is absolutely no evidence that the chain of custody has been violated, and the way you keep throwing that word around has made it clear you don't actually understand what chain of custody is or how evidentiary recordings are handled.

Chain of custody (CoC), in legal contexts, is the chronological documentation or paper trail that records the sequence of custody, control, transfer, analysis, and disposition of physical or electronic evidence. When it comes to things like murder weapons or bloody gloves this is able to, and should be documented fully at all times, who has what times for what times, and if possible what purposes. This is easy, because there is only one item that can only exist in one place at any given time. It goes out to a lab, it comes back in. Defense attorney brings an expert to examine a fire arm, who and times are documented until it goes back into the locker.

It DOES NOT work the same way for digital recordings. For one thing, PR LE WAS NOT, AND NEVER IS, GIVEN THE ONLY VIDEO IN EXISTENCE. They were given A DVD COPY while RCCL retains the original. The person involved in making the copy for RCCL is documented and will be called in as an evidentiary witness during the trial to attest that yes, I made this recording that was turned over. Yes, this version presented before the court is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge. When the defense gets the video in discovery they are not led into a room and only get to watch it on a monitor while the DA keeps it, an official copy is burned and turned over to the defense WHICH THE DA AND LE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ONCE IT LEAVES THEIR OFFICE. IT DOESN'T COME BACK. The defense can do whatever they want with it, which clearly they made another copy and gave it to Winkleman (who up until then was not entitled to discovery because he is not involved with the criminal case and the civil case HAD NOT BEEN FILED) who has taken it on a media tour.

If pressed the DA will likely have no problems producing records of what copies they have made and who they gave them too, but once those videos are out of there hands they are not responsible for what happens to them, the people who have those copies are. And we already know the defense has gone and made more copies for the family and that Winkleman has been flaunting his copy to the media. I am not one bit surprised that somehow the media got what looks like a crummy cell phone recording of a TV monitor knowing that and I find it hard to find any reason that the DA would have leaked this so again, please stop. You are entitled to your "opinion", but don't use legal terms you don't understand to try and make it sound like you have a point.
Awesome post!
 
There was a previous post regarding sunglasses. I thought it is interesting to note when I wear sunglasses in a casino, screens on some slot machines look like black, blank screens with nothing on them. At first, I thought the slots were malfunctioning or just turned off, and I continued to think this for several hours while staying in the hotel/casino resort. When I finally took my sunglasses off on the slot floor, I was shocked to discover my sunglasses were causing everything on the screen to look blank! Now I wonder if my sunglasses are blocking other things I should be seeing, like electronic road signs, etc, which would be dangerous.
Thats a very interesting and important observation!
 
I think it's safe to say that there were, indeed, people on the dock who witnessed Chloe's fall. When a ship is in port, especially on embarkation day, the dock is teeming with activity. Passengers from the previous voyage disembark. As soon as local authorities have cleared the ship, embarkation of new passengers begins. In the meantime, there are dock workers delivering food and other supplies to the ship. Luggage handlers are loading bags onto the ship via conveyor. The vessel is undergoing refueling, exterior cleaning, repairs, etc. Some crew members may disembark for a few hours. There is heavy security presence that includes cruise line personnel and local authorities. Not everyone on the dock would have necessarily noticed Chloe's tragic fall, but I feel certain that there were multiple witnesses on the dock.
I love your descriptive writing. Very informative and interesting. Thank you!
 
I love your descriptive writing. Very informative and interesting. Thank you!

Here's an essay on "turnaround day" that some might find interesting and informative.
What Is a Turnaround Day on a Cruise? - Cruise Critic

DH and I have been on cruises up to 12 nights but have never done what is called a back-to-back when you stay on the ship after it returns to home port prior to the next voyage. We have a cruise coming up later this month that we originally booked as a 14-night sailing so we could experience a back-to-back since the ship does two different 7-night itineraries (eastern and western Caribbean), returning to Fort Lauderdale in between. As final payment approached, I was beginning to worry that I might not be up to 14 nights on a cruise ship, so we canceled the western leg of the 14-night sailing. I'm sure we'll have some regrets about not experiencing a b-2-b cruise, but 15 days away from home just seemed like too much. I will turn 70 during the cruise. I tend to be a homebody, and, while I love traveling, it's become less enticing as I age. I'm glad that we did a lot of traveling in our youth :)
 
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Mother's Claim: Protecting Child from Release of Vids? Sincerity?
We'll agree to disagree. The mother stated her reason for not wanting the video public was to protect her older child. I find it to be a very compelling reason and would feel the same way
@MyBelle sbm bbm ( Snipped for focus, as I'm not addressing other issues in ^ post). Yes agreeing the reason seems compelling, but is it sincere? Are her actions consistent w this claim?


Did KSW believe both civil lawsuit and criminal prosecution would proceed to verdict? And it would happen without release of most crucial evidence of events leading to the death? The events showing cruiseline's purported responsibilty for toddler’s death? At least, according to parents & defendant SA. Perhaps naïve tor an atty?
Release of vids was almost inevitable, from first rumblings of parents’ threatened lawsuit against cruiseline and PR crim prosecution of SA, if either case went to trial, imo.
 
Awesome post!

Thanks! I just really blows my mind how often I've seen people flipping out about this video as if it having been released somehow means that the DA "must have done something wrong" or that this "taints the jury pool" and means "mistrial!" because "tainting the jury pool!!"

There are at least 3 official copies of this tape that we can assume exist at this point: RCCL's, the DA's, and SA's defense. We know that Winkleman has one that he obtained before the civil case was filed. He probably got it from Ortiz with SA's permission because the DA was under no obligation to turn over a copy to him. He would have gotten a copy directly from RCCL during the discovery phase of the civil case, but that still required it to at least be filed and at that point in the process. And we know this one exists because the media has said he showed it to them, so that would make 4 videos that exist. There could be other copies that were issued to experts for enhancement/evaluation but right now we don't know who or possibly how many. It literally could have come from anywhere, including Winkleman himself.

And as for creating an unfair trial, um... no. How much information about the Casey Anthony trial came out beforehand? The 911 call from the Trayvon Martin shooting? Heck, the cell phone videos of Oscar Grant getting shot and killed in the BART station were all over the news before charges were even filed. There is absolutely no argument that this has created any kind of unfair situation for SA's criminal case when trials have proceeded with much, much more being publicized for far longer periods of time.
 
Mother's Claim: Protecting Child from Release of Vids? Sincerity?
@MyBelle sbm bbm ( Snipped for focus, as I'm not addressing other issues in ^ post). Yes agreeing the reason seems compelling, but is it sincere? Are her actions consistent w this claim?

Did KSW believe both civil lawsuit and criminal prosecution would proceed to verdict? And it would happen without release of most crucial evidence of events leading to the death? The events showing cruiseline's purported responsibilty for toddler’s death? At least, according to parents & defendant SA. Perhaps naïve tor an atty?
Release of vids was almost inevitable, from first rumblings of parents’ threatened lawsuit against cruiseline and PR crim prosecution of SA, if either case went to trial, imo.


When Winkleman allowed the viewing by CBS News, with a verbal description, IMO, the contents of video was leaked at that point.

Incidentally, I do believe DB accurately described what happened on the video, albeit, very carefully.

As far as La Comay having to reveal their source, isn't there still some kind of law about journalists not having to reveal their source?

The investigation is dead in the water.
 
When Winkleman allowed the viewing by CBS News, with a verbal description, IMO, the contents of video was leaked at that point.

Incidentally, I do believe DB accurately described what happened on the video, albeit, very carefully.

As far as La Comay having to reveal their source, isn't there still some kind of law about journalists not having to reveal their source?

The investigation is dead in the water.


As far as the son goes, I'm sure the Wiegands are trying to preserve the relationship with his grandparents. Maybe they are trying to shelter him a bit.

I had younger brothers and sisters when I was that age. All 6 of us are still around, and we are no longer youngsters.

It would have hit me like a ton of bricks to lose a sibling when I was 10 years old, and most excruciatingly so, for an innocent, precious baby sister.
 
As far as the son goes, I'm sure the Wiegands are trying to preserve the relationship with his grandparents. Maybe they are trying to shelter him a bit.

I had younger brothers and sisters when I was that age. All 6 of us are still around, and we are no longer youngsters.

It would have hit me like a ton of bricks to lose a sibling when I was 10 years old, and most excruciatingly so, for an innocent, precious baby sister.

So, why do I think they protested the release of the surveillance video?

Probably because 99% of those who view it (without further explanation of why SA thought there was glass there) will pronounce him guilty of negligent homicide.
 
So, why do I think they protested the release of the surveillance video?

Probably because 99% of those who view it (without further explanation of why SA thought there was glass there) will pronounce him guilty of negligent homicide.

This, IMO, is why the issue of thinking there was glass there is so important. IMO, he is saying "I wasn't negligent, because I thought there was glass there". No negligence, no negligent homicide.
 
As far as the son goes, I'm sure the Wiegands are trying to preserve the relationship with his grandparents. Maybe they are trying to shelter him a bit.

I had younger brothers and sisters when I was that age. All 6 of us are still around, and we are no longer youngsters.

It would have hit me like a ton of bricks to lose a sibling when I was 10 years old, and most excruciatingly so, for an innocent, precious baby sister.

I feel so bad for that boy. The past two weeks or so with the holidays must have been so terribly hard for the family. They really need their privacy now so they can try to heal. I hope the media silence can hold out a little while longer. They all genuinely need time alone to grieve and it doesn't seem like they've had that time at all since it happened.

This, IMO, is why the issue of thinking there was glass there is so important. IMO, he is saying "I wasn't negligent, because I thought there was glass there". No negligence, no negligent homicide.

IMO him putting her on the railing in the first place, glass or not, is still negligent. Even if she hadn't gone out the window and only fell down between the railing and the window she still could have been badly injured. Her pretty sunbonnet wouldn't give any protection for all the metal and glass and she still could have suffered a bad head injury or a broken arm or something that could have pulled them off the ship to a regular hospital either way. Would she still be alive? Yes most likely. But he clearly didn't have as good a grip on her as he had seemed to think he did and glass being there is no excuse.

And I'm still convinced he moved her from the rail to the window ledge/frame when he shifts her from his right to the left. She's suddenly so far away from him, and the way he leans over the rail there is no way she can still be standing on it at the same time or she'd be under him
 
For SA, will the trial be in English or Spanish? Most people in Puerto Rico are bilingual, but I believe that the primary language is Spanish.

Does anyone know?
 
What tends to matter is what the law was at the time something was made. Take airbags in vehicles that are now mandatory, which you wouldn't have a case if you sued because you got hurt in an accident due to lack of airbags involving a 1957 Chevy. It would cause severe problems if every time codes were changed it resulted in recalls and retrofits of vehicles, buildings, etc. Rather than just applying to new products.

Somewhere back in my reading of safety features on cruise ships there is mention of exactly this.

Something along the lines of older boats needed to add a safety barrier rail of no less than 42" in height in required areas, to comply with amendments to safety laws about overboard situations.

They were not required to redesign/reconfigure their whole ship.
 
I feel so bad for that boy. The past two weeks or so with the holidays must have been so terribly hard for the family. They really need their privacy now so they can try to heal. I hope the media silence can hold out a little while longer. They all genuinely need time alone to grieve and it doesn't seem like they've had that time at all since it happened.



IMO him putting her on the railing in the first place, glass or not, is still negligent. Even if she hadn't gone out the window and only fell down between the railing and the window she still could have been badly injured. Her pretty sunbonnet wouldn't give any protection for all the metal and glass and she still could have suffered a bad head injury or a broken arm or something that could have pulled them off the ship to a regular hospital either way. Would she still be alive? Yes most likely. But he clearly didn't have as good a grip on her as he had seemed to think he did and glass being there is no excuse.

And I'm still convinced he moved her from the rail to the window ledge/frame when he shifts her from his right to the left. She's suddenly so far away from him, and the way he leans over the rail there is no way she can still be standing on it at the same time or she'd be under him

I have to totally agree that IMO letting a child beat on glass is negligent, as well as going outside the railing.
 
IMO him putting her on the railing in the first place, glass or not, is still negligent. Even if she hadn't gone out the window and only fell down between the railing and the window she still could have been badly injured. Her pretty sunbonnet wouldn't give any protection for all the metal and glass and she still could have suffered a bad head injury or a broken arm or something that could have pulled them off the ship to a regular hospital either way. Would she still be alive? Yes most likely. But he clearly didn't have as good a grip on her as he had seemed to think he did and glass being there is no excuse.

RSBM

Is it negligent to ignore the passenger conduct policy that is linked to the passenger ticket contract?
Is it negligent to maybe not even read that passenger conduct policy?

As we have stated ad nauseam .... no sitting on, standing on, laying on or across safety barrier rails is allowed.
 
Court of Public Opinion or Jury Verdict?
So, why do I think they protested the release of the surveillance video?
Probably because 99% of those who view it (without further explanation of why SA thought there was glass there) will pronounce him guilty of negligent homicide.
@Forever Young :) Yes agreeing, 99% seeing vids now, without further info, could think him guilty of NegHom. But 99% will not be on the jury. Public opn. is not a jury verdict.

Ppl on jury will see/hear/read SA’s def evd in court, so will not render verdict solely on a few min's of vids. jmo
 
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