IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[Kindred]

For SA, will the trial be in English or Spanish? Most people in Puerto Rico are bilingual, but I believe that the primary language is Spanish.

Does anyone know?

Possibly English though it seems like most of the website and documents are Spanish. If it's not in English the court will have to provide him with a translator. I don't know what language the hearings so far have been in

 

[Forever Young]

I feel so bad for that boy. The past two weeks or so with the holidays must have been so terribly hard for the family. They really need their privacy now so they can try to heal. I hope the media silence can hold out a little while longer. They all genuinely need time alone to grieve and it doesn't seem like they've had that time at all since it happened.



IMO him putting her on the railing in the first place, glass or not, is still negligent. Even if she hadn't gone out the window and only fell down between the railing and the window she still could have been badly injured. Her pretty sunbonnet wouldn't give any protection for all the metal and glass and she still could have suffered a bad head injury or a broken arm or something that could have pulled them off the ship to a regular hospital either way. Would she still be alive? Yes most likely. But he clearly didn't have as good a grip on her as he had seemed to think he did and glass being there is no excuse.

And I'm still convinced he moved her from the rail to the window ledge/frame when he shifts her from his right to the left. She's suddenly so far away from him, and the way he leans over the rail there is no way she can still be standing on it at the same time or she'd be under him

SA, in the CBS interview demonstrated how "at one point" he had his left arm holding her, while using his right to "knock" with. And states that he thinks that is where he lost her.

 

[Kindred]

SA, in the CBS interview demonstrated how "at one point" he had his left arm holding her, while using his right to "knock" with. And states that he thinks that is where he lost her.

That's what he says, but there isn't anything anywhere in the video that looks like him attempting to knock. From the rear you never see his right hand come up into view reaching or looking for glass. From the side you only see him swaying back and forth and then leaning very far forward and staying there for several moments before collapsing.

 

[Forever Young]

Court of Public Opinion or Jury Verdict?
@Forever Young Yes agreeing, 99% seeing vids now, without further info, could think him guilty of NegHom. But 99% will not be on the jury. Public opn. is not a jury verdict.

Ppl on jury will see/hear/read SA’s def evd in court, so will not render verdict solely on a few min's of vids. jmo

While that may be technically correct, I am expecting IMO a request for a change of venue, because of the notoriety of the case in San Juan, and the language barrier.

I also think that the Wiegands were hoping for a speedy settlement, rather than a trial, due to the negative publicity they were generating for RCCL, which kind of back-fired on them.

 

[justbreathe]

Serious answer: I highly doubt it, as those windows would have been designed to the cruise line’s specifications.

Facetious answer: I sure hope so, as the more ridiculous a lawsuit, the more entertaining it is.

Because as well all know, everyone wants to go on a cruise where windows don’t open, and the fresh ocean breeze has to be imagined. It’s too risky to allow people to use basic common sense, and expect them not to balance their children on a ledge where they can easily fall to their deaths.

Or something...

It’s all good though, because after a few days of blaming himself, grandpa has now absolved himself of all responsibility, and placed the blame squarely where it belongs—on the cruise line.

And that’s what bothers me the most. He believes he did nothing wrong.

This is what troubles me the most. If they actually cared about protecting children they would have a campaign about not putting children near windows when you are up high, and should never, never, ever breach a safety rail under any circumstances - unless you are trying to get off the ship!

Maybe add a bit about hoe boats and buildings are not the same so Do Not Assume.

But no, SA thinks it is the ship’s fault. Does not blame himself. Turns my stomach.

 

[Forever Young]

That's what he says, but there isn't anything anywhere in the video that looks like him attempting to knock. From the rear you never see his right hand come up into view reaching or looking for glass. From the side you only see him swaying back and forth and then leaning very far forward and staying there for several moments before collapsing.

Right you are about that. Rather, it looks like he might be holding on to the railing with his right, or the inside of the window frame to brace himself. Maybe that is how he "lost his balance"? JMO

 

[Kindred]

While that may be technically correct, I am expecting IMO a request for a change of venue, because of the notoriety of the case in San Juan, and the language barrier.

I also think that the Wiegands were hoping for a speedy settlement, rather than a trial, due to the negative publicity they were generating for RCCL, which kind of back-fired on them.

They have been doing the talk circuit here on the mainland but not on the island. Even if a change in venue was granted, it probably wouldn't take it off the island, just move it to another city in PR. That might actually make things more difficult for them in the long run.

RCCL has absolutely no reason to settle. It may have been what they were hoping for but it's probably not going to happen.

 

[MassGuy]

This is what troubles me the most. If they actually cared about protecting children they would have a campaign about not putting children near windows when you are up high, and should never, never, ever breach a safety rail under any circumstances - unless you are trying to get off the ship!

Maybe add a bit about hoe boats and buildings are not the same so Do Not Assume.

But no, SA thinks it is the ship’s fault. Does not blame himself. Turns my stomach.

Exactly. Chloe’s death was contingent upon someone putting her life in jeopardy in the first place. If she’s not put in that position, she’s alive right now.

It’s one thing if she managed to easily climb up and fall out, but that’s not what happened.

If I did something like this, I could never forgive myself. It took this man a matter of days.

That’s telling, horrifying, and disgusting.

 

[justbreathe]

Does that boat transport prisoners so they can't access the windows to attempt a water escape? It reminds me of a prison.

Anyway, because the newer ships have windows that open only 4 inches, doesn't that suggest the fully open windows on the older ships are a safety hazard, an accident waiting to happen, therefore the new modification is being implemented? This is what Winks is implying, so how does RCCL defend themselves against that fact? I can understand the courts putting partial blame on RCCL for CW's death for that reason, even though SA breached the railing. If the FOS window opened four inches only, chances are CW wouldn't be dead, just maybe injured.
What if a child climbed on one of those chairs or tables in the bar area, then went onto the railing and fell overboard?

I wonder if we will ever get to a point in time when a driver will be jailed for causing a death which could have been avoided if his old car was equipped with a rear view camera and all the other safety features on the new cars?

Interesting analogy, and why I think RCCL has no liability - neither 4 inch windows or back-up cameras are legally required.

Just because some ships have a different design doesn’t mean the old design is “bad” or a legal liability. You can’t hold someone to a standard that hasn’t been implemented.

It is so weird because the obvious lesson here, imo, is Not to Breach Safety Railings on a Ship.

Buy the Ws think the lesson is windows shouldn’t open. While on a boat where areas have less than open windows everywhere, they have railings?

And it never even enters the narrative - ok, Chloe should not have been up there.

 

[al66pine]

SA’s Crim Trial in PR Court: English or Spanish?

For SA, will the trial be in English or Spanish? Most people in Puerto Rico are bilingual, but I believe that the primary language is Spanish. Does anyone know?

@mickey2942. It is a PR crime (not a US federal crime, which would be tried in the US Dist Ct in Dist of PR). Based on info below and in footnote, imo, Spanish. Could be wrong. Anyone w sources saying English? Link?


"Spanish is, and has been, the only official language of the entire Commonwealth judiciary system." *

FWIW "... English is the primary language of less than 10% of the population. Spanish is the dominant language of business, education and daily life on the island, spoken by nearly 95% of the population..." Puerto Rico - Wikipedia bbm

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* "The official languages [218] of the executive branch of government of Puerto Rico[219] are Spanish and English, with Spanish being the primary language. Spanish is, and has been, the only official language of the entire Commonwealth judiciary system....
However, all official business of the U.S. District Court for the District of Puerto Rico is conducted in English...." bbm Puerto Rico - Wikipedia

 

[justbreathe]

LOL!

A much-needed laugh, after wading through all of the posts about color-blindness . . .

Yeah, that was a slog, haha! Learned a lesson there.

 

[justbreathe]

bbm
This post is not in response to your comment; but rather the ones who are perpetuating the myth of the 'faulty ship that needs to be fixed'.

There was and still is nothing wrong with the window design.
The Wiegand's know this , of course.

S.A. has never admitted that he placed the baby on the narrow edge of the window.
When he said railing, he was lying -- as the video shows that she wasn't put on the inner wooden railing but the thin metal track that the window pane slides along when opened.
Then he holds and/or dangles her outside the window.
Before he drops her.
Horrific.

Yes, another mischaracterization by Winky. Not the hand/guard railing. The metal railing the window slides on. It is horrifying to imagine.

 

[justbreathe]

Hittin' the nail right on the head, there...square on it. Bullseye.

Yes, I imagine if this was any sort of problem for colorblind folks it would have come up before now. The claim is ridiculous.

 

[LietKynes]

Kindred said: ↑

They have been doing the talk circuit here on the mainland but not on the island. Even if a change in venue was granted, it probably wouldn't take it off the island, just move it to another city in PR. That might actually make things more difficult for them in the long run.

RCCL has absolutely no reason to settle. It may have been what they were hoping for but it's probably not going to happen.​

bbm
Well of course not. They'd be foolish to consider it.
Think about what that would be saying ? "We, RCCL, caused the terrible death of a toddler. She was still just a baby in many people's thinking. Chloe is dead because of us."
Nope. Not going to happen.
I hope RCCL sticks to their guns and do not budge an inch.

 

[justbreathe]

I have wondered this same thing. It is what Winkelman doesn’t say that I have started to pay attention too.

Winkelman craftily chose his words in the press conference and lawsuit. Notice that he never says “ALL of the new RCCL ships have an updated window design”. This leads me to believe that only some of the newer RCCL ships have implemented a window design- but that other new RCCL vessels still have the same design as Freedom of the Seas.

A “new” design might not be a “better” design. I don’t think it implies there is a problem with the old windows. If there is the legal standards for ships should be updated.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM, snipped for brevity

No offense, but you need to stop making uncorroborated allegations about something you don't know anything about. There is absolutely no evidence that the chain of custody has been violated, and the way you keep throwing that word around has made it clear you don't actually understand what chain of custody is or how evidentiary recordings are handled.

>>snipped for brevity<<
That is your opinion and I respect it. But you aren't a verified attorney on this forum. The mother in this case IS an attorney and I will continue to believe her and respect her as an attorney and as a victim.

JMO

 

[justbreathe]

IMO, we would not be able to see her at all if she was sitting on the ledge or inside the window track. The railing being at the height it is is the only thing that allows us to see her.

Where he shifts her from standing to sitting is the only place that I can see where she was suspended in the air and would be considered to be "dangling".

I can’t see her at all from the side view, which is part of why I think she was in the window frame. I couldn’t figure out how that baby fell with at least 12 inches between her and the outside. She fell because she was standing in the window frame itself.

 

[SouthAussie]

>>snipped for brevity<<
That is your opinion and I respect it. But you aren't a verified attorney on this forum. The mother in this case IS an attorney and I will continue to believe her and respect her as an attorney and as a victim.

JMO

I hadn't heard the mother say the chain of custody was broken? (Because it wasn't.)


Michael Winkleman, the family's attorney, said the family "publicly asks the Puerto Rican authorities, why was this footage released? Why do you continue to inflict such heinous emotional distress on our family? Haven't we been punished enough by the loss of Chloe? Finally, The family requests an immediate, independent investigation done into the circumstances surrounding the leak."
Chloe Wiegand's family condemns the release of a video that shows moments toddler fell to death from cruise ship - CNN

 

[justbreathe]

So, why do I think they protested the release of the surveillance video?

Probably because 99% of those who view it (without further explanation of why SA thought there was glass there) will pronounce him guilty of negligent homicide.

IMO there is no reasonable explanation why SA assumed there was glass there. The claim becomes even more unreasonable upon viewing the video.

And all of the explanations so far have been ridiculous.

 

[MsFacetious]

I hadn't heard the mother say the chain of custody was broken? (Because it wasn't.)


Michael Winkleman, the family's attorney, said the family "publicly asks the Puerto Rican authorities, why was this footage released? Why do you continue to inflict such heinous emotional distress on our family? Haven't we been punished enough by the loss of Chloe? Finally, The family requests an immediate, independent investigation done into the circumstances surrounding the leak."
Chloe Wiegand's family condemns the release of a video that shows moments toddler fell to death from cruise ship - CNN

Because it wasn't and she didn't.

I just googled thinking I missed something trying to find where KW said something about chain of custody or even a fair trial.

She objected to the video being released as a MOTHER not as an attorney. So I'm not sure what her profession has to do with it.