Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Manwel]

To understand the point I'm trying to make, think of the many sketches that were created in the Golden State Killer case. Out of all of them I've seen, to my eyes only one captured a likeness to the actual perpetrator as he looked when the crimes were being committed. So can we conclude that the sketches that didn't look like the actual appearance of GSK were actually of other people, unconnected to the crimes? No, they were inaccurate because the victims' and witnesses' memories of facial recall were imperfect, a neurological phenomenon that has been studied and is well known.

Shoot, in hindsight I think about three or four of those GSK sketches were on the money. Especially the one where he had the longer face. Captured his eyes well relative to what he looked at the time. He changed his appearance a lot. There's a mustache sketch that makes him look like Dewey from Scream and that's exactly what he looked like with it. I need a better reason from LE to say the younger sketch is better than simply that they might have ruled out the first person the sketch was based on. That doesn't disqualify age or make someone younger the prime suspect when you have that video. Show of hands, who looks at the video and sees and HEARS a man at least 38 or older?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

How? My understanding is this is how they got police sketches? They really didn't even talk about THAT with the public. Geeeez.

If I remember correctly, LE did talk about how they got the sketches. However, they did not talk about specific individuals who helped get the the sketches together.

 

[MistyWaters]

Shoot, in hindsight I think about three or four of those GSK sketches were on the money. Especially the one where he had the longer face. Captured his eyes well relative to what he looked at the time. He changed his appearance a lot. There's a mustache sketch that makes him look like Dewey from Scream and that's exactly what he looked like with it. I need a better reason from LE to say the younger sketch is better than simply that they might have ruled out the first person the sketch was based on. That doesn't disqualify age or make someone younger the prime suspect when you have that video. Show of hands, who looks at the video and sees and HEARS a man at least 38 or older?

I don’t think a recorded voice let alone only 4 words can accurately reveal the age of a person. Plus in my experience recorded voices seldom sound the same as a face to face interaction. Voice tones including everything from husky to higher pitched voices are usually a matter of genetics, not age.

I’d sure hope anyone who’s aware of ANY information pertaining to the murders would’ve called in a tip regardless of similarities to any sketches. LE has never said don’t bother us if he doesn’t look exactly like the sketch. It seems to me it’s SM with its yen toward side-by-side FB images who strive for precision. JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

I need a better reason from LE to say the younger sketch is better than simply that they might have ruled out the first person the sketch was based on. That doesn't disqualify age or make someone younger the prime suspect when you have that video. Show of hands, who looks at the video and sees and HEARS a man at least 38 or older?

Snipped by me

Carter said the change in direction in the case (which includes the sketch with younger looking features) was a result of intelligence developed over time. Intelligence indicates that they gained this information through investigative techniques and, IMO, that they want to hold the specifics of what led them in that new direction secret for now. So I doubt we will hear a reason any time soon. Maybe we will if the case is ever adjudicated.

 

[MistyWaters]

Snipped by me

Carter said the change in direction in the case (which includes the sketch with younger looking features) was a result of intelligence developed over time. Intelligence indicates that they gained this information through investigative techniques and, IMO, that they want to hold the specifics of what led them in that new direction secret for now. So I doubt we will hear a reason any time soon. Maybe we will if the case is ever adjudicated.

A possibility of ‘Intelligence’ is for some reason LE began to doubt either the integrity or accuracy of recall of the witness/es involved in the sighting of the man depicted in the first sketch. Perhaps such a man on or near the trail that day doesn’t exist.

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence
The Reality
Memory doesn’t record our experiences like a video camera. It creates stories based on those experiences. The stories are sometimes uncannily accurate, sometimes completely fictional, and often a mixture of the two; and they can change to suit the situation. Eyewitness testimony is a potent form of evidence for convicting the accused, but it is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses. So memory can be remarkably accurate or remarkably inaccurate. Without objective evidence, the two are indistinguishable.

 

[stattlich1]

I just spent some time listening to the FBI page/recording of the voice. Over and over again. For me, 'guys' sounds like a different voice than 'down the hill', but there 's no way I could tell how old the guy is based on this voice recording.

FBI says he's between 18 and 40. That's a pretty big gap there, IMO.

FBI has only the new sketch up on their page, so to me, they think that's the best they have.

One thing I noticed is, this BG either wears his jeans real low, or he buys them way too long, OR, he borrowed them from some tall guy and put them on.

My hope is this *advertiser censored* slips up somewhere, somehow, or that the one person who knows who he is finally steps forward with the truth.

It's amazing, the video, the voice, and still no arrest.

I've said before, and I'll speculate again. This killer knew this ground. I don't think he lured the girls there, and I don't think they had any kind of deal to meet up with him, or anyone else. I do, however, leave open the possibility that the killer knew the girls would be there, at the bridge, that day.

I also looked closely at the crime scene photo, with the yellow caution tape. That wooded area is NOT thick, in regards to what this old country boy considers heavy brush/understory. I know I've moved through some real thickets in my years. This killer could have used the wooded area(s) to go a LONG ways under cover without ever having to be on a road of any sort.

He could have reached route 25 under cover of woods, or he could have went the other way for quite a ways following deer creek in the bottoms. However, my gut has always told me he parked in the rear of that cemetery, walked in, waited, murdered, walked out, and drove away on 300 AWAY from the trailhead and rt. 25.

 

[absentia]

In the original still frame of BG, we saw what appeared to be the arm (sweater or coat) of another person on the bridge on the left edge of the frame. It has since been edited out. Most people assumed this was Abby's sweatshirt. If so, BG was VERY close to Abby by the time he was about halfway across the bridge, if you have seen the videos by GH that identify the place where BG was on the bridge at that point in the video. If it wasn't Abby, there was someone else there.

I think we were all under the impression that A&L were at the end of the bridge when that video was taken, but Abby was either trailing far behind Libby, or someone else was between A&L and BG.

I just spent some time listening to the FBI page/recording of the voice. Over and over again. For me, 'guys' sounds like a different voice than 'down the hill', but there 's no way I could tell how old the guy is based on this voice recording.

FBI says he's between 18 and 40. That's a pretty big gap there, IMO.

FBI has only the new sketch up on their page, so to me, they think that's the best they have.

One thing I noticed is, this BG either wears his jeans real low, or he buys them way too long, OR, he borrowed them from some tall guy and put them on.

My hope is this *advertiser censored* slips up somewhere, somehow, or that the one person who knows who he is finally steps forward with the truth.

It's amazing, the video, the voice, and still no arrest.

I've said before, and I'll speculate again. This killer knew this ground. I don't think he lured the girls there, and I don't think they had any kind of deal to meet up with him, or anyone else. I do, however, leave open the possibility that the killer knew the girls would be there, at the bridge, that day.

I also looked closely at the crime scene photo, with the yellow caution tape. That wooded area is NOT thick, in regards to what this old country boy considers heavy brush/understory. I know I've moved through some real thickets in my years. This killer could have used the wooded area(s) to go a LONG ways under cover without ever having to be on a road of any sort.

He could have reached route 25 under cover of woods, or he could have went the other way for quite a ways following deer creek in the bottoms. However, my gut has always told me he parked in the rear of that cemetery, walked in, waited, murdered, walked out, and drove away on 300 AWAY from the trailhead and rt. 25.

 

[absentia]

It would change the gait but not a structural anomaly in the anatomy of the person. Anatomical medial rotation of the femur (pigeon toed-ness) or inversion of the ankle would not necessarily change bc of walking on the bridge ties. Other aspects of gait may change but probably not the anatomical placement of the joints.

Haven't police/FBI commented that walking on the bridge would change people's gait while stepping carefully?

 

[ReadySet]

That's a subjective opinion though. The man in the video has been "seen" in so many ways with so many different, contradictory characteristics.

Shoot, in hindsight I think about three or four of those GSK sketches were on the money. Especially the one where he had the longer face. Captured his eyes well relative to what he looked at the time. He changed his appearance a lot. There's a mustache sketch that makes him look like Dewey from Scream and that's exactly what he looked like with it. I need a better reason from LE to say the younger sketch is better than simply that they might have ruled out the first person the sketch was based on. That doesn't disqualify age or make someone younger the prime suspect when you have that video. Show of hands, who looks at the video and sees and HEARS a man at least 38 or older?

 

[MistyWaters]

In the original still frame of BG, we saw what appeared to be the arm (sweater or coat) of another person on the bridge on the left edge of the frame. It has since been edited out. Most people assumed this was Abby's sweatshirt. If so, BG was VERY close to Abby by the time he was about halfway across the bridge, if you have seen the videos by GH that identify the place where BG was on the bridge at that point in the video. If it wasn't Abby, there was someone else there.

I think we were all under the impression that A&L were at the end of the bridge when that video was taken, but Abby was either trailing far behind Libby, or someone else was between A&L and BG.

I recall early on the possibility of Abby’s arm photographed was discussed a lot. I think this was the photo, on the right. But now I don’t think it’s Abby’s arm at all.


Grandfather of murdered Delphi teen speaks out Thursday

The reason is - notice this wider angle photo, placing the suspect on the bridge? If you’re able to zoom in you’ll see a small, long, dark portion of a tree precisely in the location where the illusion of the arm appears in the above photo.

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?

 

[SMK777]

The difficulties for the FBI in retrieving erased phone data demonstrate that even the FBI has electronic limitations and that one can greatly hinder the FBI by using commonly available technology such as an Apple phone.

Absolutely, yes. I knew someone who was part of an investigation and I was shocked to learn that text messages couldn’t be retrieved by a prosecutor’s office after 48 hours had passed.

 

[Manwel]

I just spent some time listening to the FBI page/recording of the voice. Over and over again. For me, 'guys' sounds like a different voice than 'down the hill', but there 's no way I could tell how old the guy is based on this voice recording.

FBI says he's between 18 and 40. That's a pretty big gap there, IMO.

FBI has only the new sketch up on their page, so to me, they think that's the best they have.

One thing I noticed is, this BG either wears his jeans real low, or he buys them way too long, OR, he borrowed them from some tall guy and put them on.

I don't see the pants as riding low. He appears to be a stocky guy who's probably 5'6" - 5'10" and got his Levis from Target like everyone else. They look baggy to me rather than low. They're a kind of boot cut design so they fit over his ankles onto his shoes. I imagine that's how he wears his pants all the time. But that's how a lot of men wear their pants. What is weird is how puffy the front of his coat is. It's not a normal puff like if you have a sweatshirt on underneath. It looks like he's hiding something under his jacket. I will say if it's revealed that he's not as chunky as he looks I'll believe it. I can imagine him wearing more clothing to effect weight that he doesn't really have.

I don't hear a different voice with the recording. And I believe the FBI officially confirmed it to be one voice.

 

[BNA]

I don't see the pants as riding low. He appears to be a stocky guy who's probably 5'6" - 5'10" and got his Levis from Target like everyone else. They look baggy to me rather than low. They're a kind of boot cut design so they fit over his ankles onto his shoes. I imagine that's how he wears his pants all the time. But that's how a lot of men wear their pants. What is weird is how puffy the front of his coat is. It's not a normal puff like if you have a sweatshirt on underneath. It looks like he's hiding something under his jacket. I will say if it's revealed that he's not as chunky as he looks I'll believe it. I can imagine him wearing more clothing to effect weight that he doesn't really have.

I don't hear a different voice with the recording. And I believe the FBI officially confirmed it to be one voice.

Looking at the pic again just now, I had what felt like an epiphany:

I think he has a can of snuff in the one pocket, and a few groceries or something to drink along the way packed away in there.

He has walked this route before, maybe many times. His hands are in his pockets because this is only a short portion of his route and he is hardly giving the bridge a thought....basically lost in thought. Maybe talking to himself as he goes.

He maybe has miles to go before his walk is done. His eventual escape was to continue along this route, and nobody saw him because nobody was home....plus he used the old rail line thru the trees where he could.

He maybe killed the girls because he did not want it known that he walked that route, or because they saw him do something embarassing, or just because he was bored and felt like doing something.

It was probably something like "Deliverance" out there that day, sad to say. (Not necessarily including the "act," but just the whole ambience of that otherwise.)

He is maybe nuts. Maybe a paranoid recluse. Maybe intelligent. IDK. Probably lives simply, wherever he lives.

He probably never saw the 4/19 presser, and had no interest in doing so or knowledge of it. He probably does not even follow the case.

Probably not the guy I have been suspecting all along.

Nobody is going to phone in a tip about this guy. Ever. JMO.

 

[sunshineray]

I did some research about a year ago about the money trail with the park area around deer creek. It was an ongoing issue among some residents since at least 2015, and we had pondered about the murders being a motive to make that land (and the bridge? - I can't remember details now) into a dedicated park. I couldn't quite figure out what the ultimate goal was, but some other WS members had a better idea of the rationale than I did. One of the landowners near the murders was one of the people involved (I can't remember if they were for or against it), and some city council members were involved. In fact there was some sketchy land transfers of areas adjacent to deer creek by Delphi city council members since 2015.

I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect to you at all, I know we all have looked into many different aspects, but deliberately killing two young girls because it could somehow benefit a rinky-dink local trail system seems ludicrous to me. There's not enough money make for anyone to get that crazy about it, IMO. It just doesn't make sense.

What property owners in the Deer Creek area have done with their land before or since February 2017 is their business...unless laws were broken.

 

[Charlot123]

A possibility of ‘Intelligence’ is for some reason LE began to doubt either the integrity or accuracy of recall of the witness/es involved in the sighting of the man depicted in the first sketch. Perhaps such a man on or near the trail that day doesn’t exist.

Respectfully snipped by me. I tend to agree.

I personally believe that the man on the bridge near the trail, or the BG, is someone unlucky to be strolling on the bridge on a different day, and initially perceived to be the perpetrator. Or, it is a red herring.

I don't know when, and by whom, he was captured on the bridge. Maybe he was on the bridge, after all. What is of relevance is that as of today, I have not heard of a single witness seeing the girls on the bridge at 2:07, when they were allegedly taking the photos of the bridge, and Abby.

I don't know where the pictures came from, the phone, or the cloud. But from own experience - in a household with shared cellphone account, several iphones, ipads and Macs, privacy becomes relative. Clouds and Google. I can speak for hours about it, because I even have two different cellular carriers, and it changes nothing, privacy-wise.

I can edit and post my family members' pictures, that they took somewhere else, and vise versa.

Hence, the exact date of the photos of the bridge and Abby are questionable to me. Likewise, I don't know who posted the photos on SC. I don't know who took the photo of the BG, on what day, or if it is even important.

I wonder if LE could have missed the obvious, and now they are asking themselves the same questions, and hence, the silence. I think Google and Clouds are interesting topics to investigate.

 

[Marzipan]

Looking at the pic again just now, I had what felt like an epiphany:

I think he has a can of snuff in the one pocket, and a few groceries or something to drink along the way packed away in there.

He has walked this route before, maybe many times. His hands are in his pockets because this is only a short portion of his route and he is hardly giving the bridge a thought....basically lost in thought. Maybe talking to himself as he goes.

He maybe has miles to go before his walk is done. His eventual escape was to continue along this route, and nobody saw him because nobody was home....plus he used the old rail line thru the trees where he could.

He maybe killed the girls because he did not want it known that he walked that route, or because they saw him do something embarassing, or just because he was bored and felt like doing something.

It was probably something like "Deliverance" out there that day, sad to say. (Not necessarily including the "act," but just the whole ambience of that otherwise.)

He is maybe nuts. Maybe a paranoid recluse. Maybe intelligent. IDK. Probably lives simply, wherever he lives.

He probably never saw the 4/19 presser, and had no interest in doing so or knowledge of it. He probably does not even follow the case.

Probably not the guy I have been suspecting all along.

Nobody is going to phone in a tip about this guy. Ever. JMO.

It’s interesting that you had a POI “all along” and now don’t think it was that person. I’m not sure if your epiphany made you change your mind or something else, or maybe a whole collection of things?
Does your old POI not use snuff? Does your old POI not live simply like this one appears to live and you don’t think he was dressing/appearing simple to plan to not be recognized?
I also have a POI who has moved down my list, but it’s mainly because he isn’t local and is taller than 5’10. And because others move up the list.
So now I’m just wondering — what makes someone move down a notch on other people’s list?

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect to you at all, I know we all have looked into many different aspects, but deliberately killing two young girls because it could somehow benefit a rinky-dink local trail system seems ludicrous to me. There's not enough money make for anyone to get that crazy about it, IMO. It just doesn't make sense.

What property owners in the Deer Creek area have done with their land before or since February 2017 is their business...unless laws were broken.

I’d agree. If someone strongly objected to the trail crossing over the bridge it wouldn’t be the first time historical wooden structures have been maliciously torched and the local fire department sure couldn’t drive down the trail to save it. Instead murdering two innocent teens and risking the death penalty, I just can’t imagine that’d ever be a chosen option if the motive was such.

 

[MistyWaters]

Respectfully snipped by me. I tend to agree.

I personally believe that the man on the bridge near the trail, or the BG, is someone unlucky to be strolling on the bridge on a different day, and initially perceived to be the perpetrator. Or, it is a red herring.

I don't know when, and by whom, he was captured on the bridge. Maybe he was on the bridge, after all. What is of relevance is that as of today, I have not heard of a single witness seeing the girls on the bridge at 2:07, when they were allegedly taking the photos of the bridge, and Abby.

I don't know where the pictures came from, the phone, or the cloud. But from own experience - in a household with shared cellphone account, several iphones, ipads and Macs, privacy becomes relative. Clouds and Google. I can speak for hours about it, because I even have two different cellular carriers, and it changes nothing, privacy-wise.

I can edit and post my family members' pictures, that they took somewhere else, and vise versa.

Hence, the exact date of the photos of the bridge and Abby are questionable to me. Likewise, I don't know who posted the photos on SC. I don't know who took the photo of the BG, on what day, or if it is even important.

I wonder if LE could have missed the obvious, and now they are asking themselves the same questions, and hence, the silence. I think Google and Clouds are interesting topics to investigate.

Beginning at 3:42, you’ll find discussion of the analysis of Libby’s cellphone by Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce. The cellphone was retrieved, the original source. IIRC Iphones in 2017 didn’t have very good battery power. I’d be surprised if Libby was connected to iCloud while walking the trails as it tasks battery power, or had any need for Google in an area she was well familiar with. The time the recipients received the SC would be compared against the time she sent it to determine if the time set on her phone was accurate.

Regardless, LE has never discussed the SC photos that I can recall. The media ran with the story scooped from FB, later confirmed by KG.
JMO

 

[K.jill]

Respectfully snipped by me. I tend to agree.

I personally believe that the man on the bridge near the trail, or the BG, is someone unlucky to be strolling on the bridge on a different day, and initially perceived to be the perpetrator. Or, it is a red herring.

I don't know when, and by whom, he was captured on the bridge. Maybe he was on the bridge, after all. What is of relevance is that as of today, I have not heard of a single witness seeing the girls on the bridge at 2:07, when they were allegedly taking the photos of the bridge, and Abby.

I don't know where the pictures came from, the phone, or the cloud. But from own experience - in a household with shared cellphone account, several iphones, ipads and Macs, privacy becomes relative. Clouds and Google. I can speak for hours about it, because I even have two different cellular carriers, and it changes nothing, privacy-wise.

I can edit and post my family members' pictures, that they took somewhere else, and vise versa.

Hence, the exact date of the photos of the bridge and Abby are questionable to me. Likewise, I don't know who posted the photos on SC. I don't know who took the photo of the BG, on what day, or if it is even important.

I wonder if LE could have missed the obvious, and now they are asking themselves the same questions, and hence, the silence. I think Google and Clouds are interesting topics to investigate.

Your post made me think about the other people on the trails that day. How many people witnessed Abby and Libby on their walk and where did they see them along their route? Does anyone have a clear understanding of that?
Iirc, no one else was in the parking area when Kelsi dropped the girls off..at least not that we know of, is that correct?

 

[Yemelyan]

Your post made me think about the other people on the trails that day. How many people witnessed Abby and Libby on their walk and where did they see them along their route? Does anyone have a clear understanding of that?
Iirc, no one else was in the parking area when Kelsi dropped the girls off..at least not that we know of, is that correct?

As far as I know, LE has never talked about any witness seeing the girls on the trails that day. This doesn't necessarily mean they weren't seen, but if so the information hasn't been shared.

As to whether anyone else was in the parking area when the girls were dropped off, there was an article in the Purdue Exponent called A New Path that profiled Kelsi German and it includes this quote:

Kelsi remembers seeing a dark SUV, its rear windshield covered in decals, parked near the entrance where she dropped off the girls. She didn’t pay attention to whether any people were around, something she regrets daily.

The rest of the article: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2bsONz4Cn6qoZsEx85_zsB