Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

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rosesfromangels said:
I agree with your post. The vast majority of cases are solved with sound investigative methods and data/DNA science. I typically don't consider or subscribe to fringe theories, as they are generally a waste of time and focus.

Yet, in this case, there are enough flags (for me), to look at other cases that have seemingly similar characteristics and press the boundaries of possibility. Maybe, given the time and heart wrenching nature of the crime, it's a natural instinct. And of course, this is an amateur sleuth board, so you can expect amateur ideas from me. : ) Many of which, should likely be instantly discarded....maybe a couple good points to ponder from time to time as well.

I was doing a little study last night of murderers, and specifically SKs. Of course, Ted Bundy came up in that study. The thing that jumped to the surface with Bundy (and was his ultimate undoing), was his *arrogance* and feeling of invincibility. (Crimes committed in daylight with high possibility of detection, etc.) That arrogance, got him captured.

I wonder if our Perp has a a similar personality profile; that of being supremely grandiose and arrogant?

Amateur opinion and speculation
Click to expand...

I had another question yesterday.

Are symptoms of PTSD in survivors in serial killers different, from, say, PTSD in combat veterans?

And I could not find anything. About serial killers, yes. About their victims who survived, no.

Except for that woman who had PTSD from her abusive husband, and it helped her when she ran into a SK.

There don’t seem to be many survivors (((.
 
I found this early article worth a re-read: Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe | Fox 59

Specifically these comments from then-prosecutor Ives:

Investigators are anxiously awaiting full DNA test results being compiled by FBI forensic analysts.

“I go back before DNA and cell phones,” said Ives who remembered prosecuting criminal cases in Carroll County with less evidence than in this case since 1987, “and I certainly would have said, if experienced investigators, as we have in this case, had the evidence that was available in this case, I would expect them to solve it within a month. That’s without DNA and cell phones which are a big part of what’s going on here."

I really wonder what evidence investigators had one month after the murders that Ives believed was enough to solve the case, considering that he wasn't even including DNA or information from cell phones in that calculation?

Also interesting to note that his comments indicate that DNA from the scene at this early stage was thought to be a "big part" of the case. Nowadays most people with an interest in this case have come to believe only inconclusive DNA was found. It's fascinating to re-read what investigators have actually told us and compare to the second hand information and speculation that have taken hold over time.
 
I paid a visit to the Monon trail and the Monon High Bridge trail, recently, and thought I'd share my hike here. My last visit was during mid-Summer in 2017, and for the most part was just a drive around the general area. This time I decided to stop for a walk on the trails, and maybe try to include a visit to the bridge.

This time around I drove from just south of there, IN 18 then on to IN 25 northbound. Since 2017, some small signs with arrows indicating the turn off for C.R. 300 state "Monon Trail" and "Historic Wilson Bridge" have been added along the highway.

My hike started at the parking area located off of C.R. 300 just west of IN 25, this is a raised earthen area added when the highway was built in 2014, adjacent to the old railroad RoW. In recent years the trail section west of there has been improved. I walked in that direction, first, finding the Milroy marker that was put up over 100 years ago, back in the woods a bit. Apparently a family member was a sculptor, which explains the sculptures further west on the trail which I've seen described here and elsewhere.

I then headed east, encountering some people who were headed back to the parking area. In all there were about 8 vehicles parked there. At the trailhead for the bridge trail, which is just east of Freedom Bridge, you cannot see the land the CPS building once sat on. I was kind of surprised by this. There is a short trail which branches off in that direction.

I started down the main trail, encountering some families who were out for a walk on a nice day. I needed to know a few things that have been nagging at me for some time, the location of the benches along there, timing from the trailhead (my first reference point), and what can be seem from each bench.

There are 4 benches along the main trail, I'd thought there were three. Another bench is located off of the trail some feet, where the Girard trail begins, and it provides a nice view of the gorge.

You can clearly see the memorial from the 4th bench, which confirms for me that BG most likely was at the bench, watching the main trail and the short trail which leads to where the girls were dropped off. The Girard Trail also branches off right by there. He would have been able to watch that "intersection" from the 4th bench (4th from the trailhead by Freedom Bridge), especially with the vegetation being down in February. The girls would have walked through there on their way to the bridge.

It took me 5.5 minutes to walk from the trailhead to the 4th bench. MHB to the memorial/intersection spot took me 3,5 minutes, much shorter than I'd thought it would take. From MHB back to the parking area by IN 25 took 13.5 minutes.

All of those times were much shorter than I'd thought they would take for a healthy adult.
 
Yemelyan said:
I found this early article worth a re-read: Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe | Fox 59
“I go back before DNA and cell phones,” said Ives who remembered prosecuting criminal cases in Carroll County with less evidence than in this case since 1987, “and I certainly would have said, if experienced investigators, as we have in this case, had the evidence that was available in this case, I would expect them to solve it within a month. That’s without DNA and cell phones which are a big part of what’s going on here."
Click to expand...

So, if they had this much evidence, that would solve the case in a month, then why has it not been solved? Therein lies my difficulty in understanding.

I think this runs parallel with the comment, not quoted, but akin to, how they had evidence that would normally lead to one person, or another, but never led to a specific person.

So what gives? Twins? Father/Son? No way to differentiate between the two who actually did the killing?

Duped?

The only other possibility I come up with is a coverup scenario, which IMO only, is possible, but unlikely. For me, truth be told, in this era, in the United States, who is the authority one can truly trust? truly believe?
 
stattlich1 said:
So, if they had this much evidence, that would solve the case in a month, then why has it not been solved? Therein lies my difficulty in understanding.

I think this runs parallel with the comment, not quoted, but akin to, how they had evidence that would normally lead to one person, or another, but never led to a specific person.

So what gives? Twins? Father/Son? No way to differentiate between the two who actually did the killing?

Duped?

The only other possibility I come up with is a coverup scenario, which IMO only, is possible, but unlikely. For me, truth be told, in this era, in the United States, who is the authority one can truly trust? truly believe?
Click to expand...
If the perps, let us say: two, had cell phones, were at different locations (MHB area) and changed their phone with one another before, would that cause a problem perhaps?
 
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rosesfromangels said:
I agree with your post. The vast majority of cases are solved with sound investigative methods and data/DNA science. I typically don't consider or subscribe to fringe theories, as they are generally a waste of time and focus.

Yet, in this case, there are enough flags (for me), to look at other cases that have seemingly similar characteristics and press the boundaries of possibility. Maybe, given the time and heart wrenching nature of the crime, it's a natural instinct. And of course, this is an amateur sleuth board, so you can expect amateur ideas from me. : ) Many of which, should likely be instantly discarded....maybe a couple good points to ponder from time to time as well.

I was doing a little study last night of murderers, and specifically SKs. Of course, Ted Bundy came up in that study. The thing that jumped to the surface with Bundy (and was his ultimate undoing), was his *arrogance* and feeling of invincibility. (Crimes committed in daylight with high possibility of detection, etc.) That arrogance, got him captured.

I wonder if our Perp has a similar personality profile; that of being supremely grandiose and arrogant?

Amateur opinion and speculation
Click to expand...
Bundy was a narcissistic sociopath who acted on impulse, he seriously couldn't stop if he wanted to. I haven't seen any crime scene info on Delphi, but I suspect it's sexual sadism and the crime took some level of planning, this was not a crime of opportunity. I think this is more of a Tommy Lynn Sells type of offender in the context of savagery, but the likelihood of a drifter walking around an Indiana forest in mid-Feburaray is pretty slim. Plus, the girls were spooked enough to start snapping pics so there is a possibility they knew they were being set up. One doesn't get that squirrelly for no reason. People walk along trails all the time but aren't worried enough to start taking photos of other hikers.

My two biggest questions regarding this case are where exactly the girls were intercepted by BG, and why I hear two voices on the audio footage. One is a twenty-something male, and the other a middle-aged man. The girls weren't being trailed on the bridge or the photos would have shown it. I'm wondering if BG intercepted them on the far east side of the bridge, he could have been waiting under it for the girls to approach from the west. Obviously, this makes zero sense in that BG was seen on the bridge walking east, but there was enough room on the east side where he could have climbed up from the side, it was only a few feet difference, and walked west on the bridge from there where the photo was taken. I know there was some witness testimony placing BG near the trail entrance on the far west but the fact that we have one video from 100? feet out has me confused because it would have taken some time, at least a few minutes, to cross that bridge and we don't see him in the other photo where clearly, no one is on the bridge behind the victim. So how did he close the distance on the victims in such short a period of time and why wouldn't they have kept walking west to avoid him? This is where the two voices, "Guys" by a younger white male, and then, "Down the hill" by a middle-aged white male, come into play. It would be interesting to see the time from when the picture was taken in relation to when the video was shot. If it's under three minutes or so, something isn't jiving.
 
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JimmyWells said:
Boom, exactly! The crime scene info is what we need.
Click to expand...

Another thing I failed to mention is the similarities between Delphi and West Memphis. Let me be clear that I don't think it's the same offender but the dump job had some similarities. In both cases, the area was searched the night before, bodies were not recovered, and in both cases, the perp got in and out unscathed. Obviously, the search area in Delphi was far greater, so the bodies could have been missed, but the West Memphis case might be the most interesting crime scene I've come across, and a complete nightmare in trying to decipher it. My point though is that in the West Memphis case, the perp may have dumped the bodies while volunteers were searching the very area they were dumped in.
 
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JimmyWells said:
Bundy was a narcissistic sociopath who acted on impulse, he seriously couldn't stop if he wanted to. I haven't seen any crime scene info on Delphi, but I suspect it's sexual sadism and the crime took some level of planning, this was not a crime of opportunity. I think this is more of a Tommy Lynn Sells type of offender.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you’re leaning towards a serial killer being responsible?

I’m leaning towards BG being someone who is currently awaiting trial for another local murder.
 
JimmyWells said:
Another thing I failed to mention is the similarities between Delphi and West Memphis. Let me be clear that I don't think it's the same offender but the dump job had some similarities. In both cases, the area was searched the night before, bodies were not recovered, and in both cases, the perp got in and out unscathed. Obviously, the search area in Delphi was far greater, so the bodies could have been missed, but the West Memphis case might be the most interesting crime scene I've come across, and a complete nightmare in trying to decipher it. My point though is that in the West Memphis case, the perp may have dumped the bodies while volunteers were searching the area.
Click to expand...

What's the evidence that supports the location where the victims were found being a dump site as opposed to the site of the murders?

If you're just speculating, I'd be interested to hear examples of similar cases where victims were known to be killed elsewhere and then their bodies returned to near proximity of where they were abducted? What would be the motivation of a killer who does this? What are the evidence patterns typically seen in dump sites vs kill sites and how does this fit with known information about the Delphi case?

All of this was actually discussed here fairly recently but I for one would love to hear your take on it.
 
Tippy Lynn said:
Sounds like you’re leaning towards a serial killer being responsible?

I’m leaning towards BG being someone who is currently awaiting trial for another local murder.
Click to expand...
I don't know, certainly someone with some level of criminal sophistication and zero guilt. If it's a drifter, then yes, I would think that a serial killer is a possibility. This has a railway killer type of feel, like Recendiz or the Dardeen family murders. A drifter wouldn't have a cellphone, nor would someone planning a double murder, but an opportunist would. Is there a railway in the area?
 
Yemelyan said:
What's the evidence that supports the location where the victims were found being a dump site as opposed to the site of the murders?

If you're just speculating, I'd be interested to hear examples of similar cases where victims were known to be killed elsewhere and then their bodies returned to near proximity of where they were abducted? What would be the motivation of a killer who does this? What are the evidence patterns typically seen in dump sites vs kill sites and how does this fit with known information about the Delphi case?

All of this was actually discussed here fairly recently but I for one would love to hear your take on it.
Click to expand...
Lividity. The motivation of dump jobs is to deflect. The motivation of dumping someone in close proximity to where they were last seen is to create a plausible explanation as to why this person was found where they were, and in what condition they were found in, negating any argument of where they could have been. Jonbenet, perfect example. She was bludgeoned and strangled somewhere in that house other than in the room she was found in. If her body was recovered in the room she was actually attacked in, trace evidence would have got them.
 
I'm having trouble quoting - not sure what's going on.

Jimmy: agree this was not random. I have long stated I believe they had prior contact with the Perp, this was a prearranged meet-up, and that they were trapped at the end of the trail.

Two male voices? That's interesting. LE has never stated that; now I'm going to have to listen to that clip several times over again.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
JimmyWells said:
I don't know, certainly someone with some level of criminal sophistication and zero guilt. If it's a drifter, then yes, I would think that a serial killer is a possibility. This has a railway killer type of feel, like Recendiz or the Dardeen family murders. A drifter wouldn't have a cellphone, nor would someone planning a double murder, but an opportunist would. Is there a railway in the area?
Click to expand...


https://www.cityofdelphi.org/docume...rails/680-delphi-trails-map-updated-2011/file
 
he sure was hauling a lot of equipment for just being a "drifter". I think he lives out there and is a car ride away. railway killers are interesting, but I don't think they can ride the rails anymore like they did in the 70's...mOO
 
JimmyWells said:
Lividity. The motivation of dump jobs is to deflect. The motivation of dumping someone in close proximity to where they were last seen is to create a plausible explanation as to why this person was found where they were, and in what condition they were found in, negating any argument of where they could have been. Jonbenet, perfect example. She was bludgeoned and strangled somewhere in that house other than in the room she was found in. If her body was recovered in the room she was actually attacked in, trace evidence would have got them.
Click to expand...

1. All corpses show lividity patterns. The Delphi autopsy report is sealed so there's no way any of us have access to information that makes a statement on whether these particular victims had lividity inconsistent with how they were found.

2. You hit the nail on the head that true dump sites normally are very clean scenes with lesser amounts of associated physical evidence. How does this observation go along with Ives' statements about quantity and typology of physical evidence at the Delphi scene?

3. Transporting victims from the site of their murder and dumping them is often an attempt by the offender to obscure the link in the relationship between the victim and himself. He fears that investigators will be able to easily recognize the nature of their relationship OR, if unknown to the victim, he suspects that the initial contact site was observed by witnesses/cameras, etc. In these cases the offender seeks to put time and distance between himself and the victim/initial contact site. If Delphi investigators have found the dump site and not the murder site, this would be the opposite offender behavior of putting time and distance between himself and the scene. He could have dumped them anywhere. It's a huge risk to transport a dead victim in the first place in terms of creating secondary forensic sites (such as, in your vehicle) and being seen by witnesses. In this case, a number of witnesses would have already been searching for the girls in the area.

I'm unaware of any cases where an offender returned even one victim to a location so close to the original abduction site (though I'm sure some outlier cases could indeed be dredged up). In the Delphi situation, an offender was dealing with two victims and over three hundred pounds of weight in rough terrain. You have to ask yourself how he would have transported them. I don't see a dump site scenario here. JMO
 
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