Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[photographer4]

I was thinking of that description of the crime scene looking "pristine" no blood observed , could this mean the girls were strangled? BG used a gun to threaten them to walk to that spot where he killed them? tied one up while he killed the other ? horrific thought but JMO could be a possibility?

The timeline hasn't been made totally clear, so I wonder if he'd have had time to tie either or both up? Its interesting to me that we haven't had LE tell us that witnesses heard screaming etc - why not? Was no one around? Did he stuff something in mouth to prevent it? He sounds calm and in control when he says "guys". He sounds different, almost like a different person when he says, "down the hill".

In regards to how he died, we have been told nothing, other than there was evidence at the scene and it isn't what we'd expect. So... did this guy use a noxious substance to subdue them? Drug them to death? Maybe there was no blood at the scene or on the guy at all when he left because there was no blood drawn at the scene. Remember, we've been told searchers may not even have known what they'd happened upon when the girls were found - this does not speak to an obvious, bloody, gory scene, does it? It sounds more subtle a scene.

 

[stattlich1]

we have to focus on the BG ..LE says the girls were murdered by the man in video. He was seen in the park by other people

Every time this comes up, I hear myself say....was he? Was he seen in the park by other people?

Remind me again how we know this to be fact.

I'm not being smarty, I'm serious in asking

 

[photographer4]

Just noticed something in a photo of the trail head - the sign leading to the trail specifically states, hunting and motorized vehicles prohibited!

So, with that in mind, why would there be deer stands or deer blinds in the trails then??
View attachment 289011

 

[MistyWaters]

Just noticed something in a photo of the trail head - the sign leading to the trail specifically states, hunting and motorized vehicles prohibited!

So, with that in mind, why would there be deer stands or deer blinds in the trails then??
View attachment 289011

Yes that sign was noted long ago. That hunters would be allowed to be out and about shooting animals on or near a public walking trail from the ground or from a deer stand....a walking trail the community created as part of their Delphi Historic Trail System, also adjoining the Mary Gerard Nature Reserve, is quite a farfetched notion IMO. Nothing in the photo indicates the killer was a hunter so if he had a gun it was likely concealed as LE has never mentioned the word “hunter” in any of their appeals for tips.

 

[stattlich1]

I'm not certain the home country of all the folks on this website. Too many for me to keep track of.

However, in the United States, there are numerous designations of public land, many of which permit hunting. For the most part, hunting is permitted on private property. So, any private property adjacent to the actual trail property would be legal to hunt upon.

As for hunting 'blinds' in terms of this case, there is no evidence of such that I am aware of.

Hunting is illegal and/or restricted in most urban areas. However, in rural America, it's pretty much legal, each State having it's own laws, and regulating dates, bag limits, type's of weapons used, etc.

White Tail Deer in the U.S. is a very successful species, so much so, that the herds either 1. become terribly destructive, or 2. overcome their habitat and starve to death, particularly in winter time. I've personally seen bark stripped from trees, where deer were struggling to survive with a deep snow pack, dying from starvation. Big time, not just a few trees. Think a hundred deer, or more.

A search of game management in say, Pennsylvania, would give a person a good look at the process of managing the deer herd, and all other wildlife in that state.

Many wildlife refuges, state, and even federal parks permit hunting. I have seen lots of signs at the entry to such parks, nature preserves, etc, that indicate the hiker should either avoid hiking certain areas, or certain dates, or dress in blaze orange, etc. etc.

Edit to add, just today I saw 3 dead deer along the roads I normally drive. It is not unusual to see deer road kill. A few years ago a deer ran out from some trees smack in to my driver side truck door.

Also, farm/crop damage from deer herds is huge. Many states permit farmers to kill unlimited number of deer in an attempt to control crop damage. They also get hung up in wire fencing. That's quite a sight to see. A deer will bolt straight head on into fencing. A few years ago I came across one tangled up in a wire fence. A local came by, killed it, and took it home for the freezer.

For any curious foks, I am not, and have never been a hunter.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not certain the home country of all the folks on this website. Too many for me to keep track of.

However, in the United States, there are numerous designations of public land, many of which permit hunting. For the most part, hunting is permitted on private property. So, any private property adjacent to the actual trail property would be legal to hunt upon.

As for hunting 'blinds' in terms of this case, there is no evidence of such that I am aware of.

Hunting is illegal and/or restricted in most urban areas. However, in rural America, it's pretty much legal, each State having it's own laws, and regulating dates, bag limits, type's of weapons used, etc.

White Tail Deer in the U.S. is a very successful species, so much so, that the herds either 1. become terribly destructive, or 2. overcome their habitat and starve to death, particularly in winter time. I've personally seen bark stripped from trees, where deer were struggling to survive with a deep snow pack, dying from starvation. Big time, not just a few trees. Think a hundred deer, or more.

A search of game management in say, Pennsylvania, would give a person a good look at the process of managing the deer herd, and all other wildlife in that state.

Many wildlife refuges, state, and even federal parks permit hunting. I have seen lots of signs at the entry to such parks, nature preserves, etc, that indicate the hiker should either avoid hiking certain areas, or certain dates, or dress in blaze orange, etc. etc.

Edit to add, just today I saw 3 dead deer along the roads I normally drive. It is not unusual to see deer road kill. A few years ago a deer ran out from some trees smack in to my driver side truck door.

For any curious foks, I am not, and have never been a hunter.

Wouldn’t a “No Hunting” sign indicate hunting is not allowed, even in the United States?

 

[Yemelyan]

Every time this comes up, I hear myself say....was he? Was he seen in the park by other people?

Remind me again how we know this to be fact.

I'm not being smarty, I'm serious in asking

HLN did an "extra" episode with the reporters who created the Down the Hill podcast and the lead reporter, Barbara MacDonald, stated that LE told her there were primary witnesses, one of which was a teenage female witness on the trails that day who is believed by LE to have seen BG and spoken a few words to him. She was afraid of him and was able to go in another direction without harm.

I'll find my post where I transcribed this part of the interview and edit this post to link it here.

Here you go, @stattlich1 : It's post #897 here, the relevant section is the part with the heading "who are the witnesses". Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

 

[stattlich1]

Wouldn’t a “No Hunting” sign indicate hunting is not allowed, even in the United States?

In or upon that park property, yes. The sign would have the force of law. Direct adjoining private property would be open to hunt.

Here's an article from back in 1995. It's an interesting read. Imagine 90 deer per acre.

Gettysburg deer herd may be cut by 90%

 

[stattlich1]

HLN did an "extra" episode with the reporters who created the Down the Hill podcast and the lead reporter, Barbara MacDonald, stated that LE told her there was a teenage female witness who is believed by LE to have seen BG and spoken a few words to him. She was afraid of him and was able to go in another direction without harm.

I'll find my post where I transcribed this part of the interview and edit this post to link it here.

This is an important piece for me. I'd like to know if in fact there is a statement that indicates the witness saw who is thought to be BG sketch 2, and if it is specified the sighting was actually on the trail.

 

[Diddian]

Wouldn’t a “No Hunting” sign indicate hunting is not allowed, even in the United States?

Posted on the Mary Gerard Nature Preserve sign, it would indicate hunting is not allowed in the Nature Preserve, but that restriction would not apply to adjacent privately held land.

 

[Yemelyan]

This is an important piece for me. I'd like to know if in fact there is a statement that indicates the witness saw who is thought to be BG sketch 2, and if it is specified the sighting was actually on the trail.

The reporter stated that there were primary witnesses on the trails that day. The implication is that they contributed to sketches, one witness having had a verbal encounter with the person assumed to be BG. You can both watch and read at the link provided.

Edited to add, there's also this ISP press release that states "we have a witness." New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

For whatever that's worth!

 

[Spartygirl]

I agree with all that you’ve written. This is a question I’ve had on my mind since the early days. Other than RL leading the reporter down the hill towards the river and pointing to abandoned crime scene tape, I’ve never noticed any media photos indicating the entire boundaries. However I do recall one video revealing tape at the end of the bridge, waving in the wind, also abandoned iirc. In such a large outdoor area it’s entirely possible LE simply used crime scene tape to block off public or private access points.

So I don’t think we know the exact location where the bodies were found. In the media video with RL, the area was flat, no gully or ravine.

Speculations can only be as accurate as the information it’s based upon. As far as LE is concerned, as there were no witnesses to the girls being murdered, informing the public of the exact location may fall into the category of information that’s being withheld. JMO

Yeah,, I am not sure why that says half mile because just about every video, article, Dr Oz, HLN, interviews with LE, with family say about 1/4 mile.
this ISP article is the only one I have seen that says 1/2 mile,

 

[MistyWaters]

Posted on the Mary Gerard Nature Preserve sign, it would indicate hunting is not allowed in the Nature Preserve, but that restriction would not apply to adjacent privately held land.

The only information LE and the family have shared is the girls were dropped off to walk along the trails and we know they also took photos while on the bridge. I’m sorry but I’m totally lost to any possible connection with hunting on private land. At this point it’s not yet been confirmed a gun was involved.

 

[photographer4]

The only information LE and the family have shared is the girls were dropped off to walk along the trails and we know they also took photos while on the bridge. I’m sorry but I’m totally lost to any possible connection with hunting on private land. At this point it’s not yet been confirmed a gun was involved.

To clarify: no connection to hunting on private land. I noted the sign at the trail head said hunting prohibited... and wondered out loud as it were, why there is talk of a deer blind in the area of the trails if hunting is prohibited. Specifically, Juli Melvin provided a video clip of her and her spouse walking the bridge, and at the south end, commented there maybe was a deer stand or blind (to their right at the end of the bridge). Grey Hughes has used her video footage in his own YouTube program regarding this case (though I do not know if the part where she commented about a deer blind may have been included or edited out for his use).

It just seemed odd to me: why a deer blind anywhere in that area at all if hunting is prohibited? Now I understand it may be prohibited in the public trails, but allowable on private property.

 

[MistyWaters]

To clarify: no connection to hunting on private land. I noted the sign at the trail head said hunting prohibited... and wondered out loud as it were, why there is talk of a deer blind in the area of the trails if hunting is prohibited. Specifically, Juli Melvin provided a video clip of her and her spouse walking the bridge, and at the south end, commented there maybe was a deer stand or blind (to their right at the end of the bridge). Grey Hughes has used her video footage in his own YouTube program regarding this case (though I do not know if the part where she commented about a deer blind may have been included or edited out for his use).

It just seemed odd to me: why a deer blind anywhere in that area at all if hunting is prohibited? Now I understand it may be prohibited in the public trails, but allowable on private property.

Okay, thanks. Considering the girls were taking photos of one another on the deck of the bridge, given the height and length of the bridge with its clear non-treed visibility high above the water, high over trees on the far end as well....just my humble opinion but I’d be surprised if a deer stand has any connection to these murders. Anyone standing at ground level would’ve had the ability to notice them.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Wouldn’t a “No Hunting” sign indicate hunting is not allowed, even in the United States?

Not allowed on the trail and reserve land but allowed on private property. There's a lot of privately owned property in that immediate area.

 

[TLC - IN]

Hello everyone, newbie here to both the website and the discussion regarding this case.

Being from Indiana I recall very well hearing about the horrible events of that terrible day in 2017 and the sadness I felt for a town I knew to have such history and character. Over the years I had driven through Delphi on weekend road trips with my family, reminiscing about the days of my youth growing up in a town not unlike it.

I have spent the last couple of days reading through the plethora of opinions, theories, conjecture, speculation, and actual information available, and I decided that I would offer my thoughts as my very first post, in honor of that beautiful little town “just up the road”.

Based on the totality of the information available my theory is this.

(1) BG was someone known to the young ladies through the community, but it is NOT someone from either of the families. This is due to two things. The comments made by LE during the April 2019 press conference stating that BG was likely in the room during that presser, and how betrayed the community was going to feel when everything comes to light.

(2) The audio of BG whereby he addresses Libby and Abby as “guys”. From my experience this indicated that dealing with kids in a familiar and even friendly manner was not something unfamiliar to BG. His tone, while menacing in light of the outcome of the day, is not harsh or abrasive, but rather more like someone that is accustomed to trying to corral kids to where they are supposed to go.

(3) I do not think that Libby made the recording of BG, but rather was recording and just happened to catch his image on video. She had been photographing prior to seeing him, and just so happened to be recording when he comes on the scene.

(4) LE is not “hiding” or “covering” anything, but rather holding knowledge tightly in order to insure that this guy, when finally arrested, can’t slip out of accountability through some technicality of the law. This suggests they know very well who he is, and are just making sure everything is ironclad before they move on him. These are not NYPD or LAPD type cops. These are people of that community that have taken up the responsibility to make sure their family, friends, and neighbors are safe. They feel the loss of Libby and Abby in much the same way that they would feel the loss of their own child.

LE is not obligated to satisfy the curiosity of the public by letting loose with information that might put into jeopardy their ability to get justice for two girls they likely watched grow from babies to teenagers.

Those are just my thoughts....
I hope to see justice gained for those young ladies so that perhaps that beautiful community can begin to heal from this ordeal.

Blessings and prayers for Libby and Abby’s families and the community.

 

[Blanche]

The timeline hasn't been made totally clear, so I wonder if he'd have had time to tie either or both up? Its interesting to me that we haven't had LE tell us that witnesses heard screaming etc - why not? Was no one around? Did he stuff something in mouth to prevent it? He sounds calm and in control when he says "guys". He sounds different, almost like a different person when he says, "down the hill".

In regards to how he died, we have been told nothing, other than there was evidence at the scene and it isn't what we'd expect. So... did this guy use a noxious substance to subdue them? Drug them to death? Maybe there was no blood at the scene or on the guy at all when he left because there was no blood drawn at the scene. Remember, we've been told searchers may not even have known what they'd happened upon when the girls were found - this does not speak to an obvious, bloody, gory scene, does it? It sounds more subtle a scene.

from what has been said by LE this killer left his "signature" he did something that was more than necessary to kill them, did he stage them in a particular way? he did something that was so unusual that if he had killed before he will have done before IMO I think it is possible he did have time yes to tie them up , where they were found and killed gave him privacy to do so.

I think that if as the previous poster thinks that LE know who this guy is then they need to be acting more quickly IMO how long can they have this guy under surveliance for and how much resource would that take up ? so i dont think they do know specifically who it is otherwise i think they would have arrested him by now.

also i find it odd that they release that image so quickly after the event then wait a long time to release other bits , the longer they keep things to their chest the more things will be "leaked" and they will loose control of it , JMO, and i do understand why they dont want to release everything but to not release how they died, even to the family ???

ref the deer hunting, i thought the deer lookout was on private property not public so hunting was allowed there, although i am not American I am English.

 

[Angels27]

LE should have checked the surveillance footage from every fast food drive-tru in town for the 12, 13, n 14th. Odds are high in a small town like that they’d have found something. Interview the servers. Get the facial expressions, clothing, mannerisms, license plates, etc. Too late now.

 

[Boxer]

Wouldn’t a “No Hunting” sign indicate hunting is not allowed, even in the United States?

No Hunting is right on that Delphi trails property.
But the trail land which is a "rails to trails" type of non-profit land trust that converts old railroad rights of way property to public use, ends before or at the north end of the bridge.
Then the RR ROW and private farmlands begin.