GUILTY UK - Julia James, 53, murdered, Snowdown, Kent, 27 April 2021 *ARREST* #2

[Sillybilly]

SBM

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

The presumption of innocence is a judicial principle adhered to throughout the justice system.

WS members are not part of that system and are allowed to post their own opinions.

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

But there is no denying they are still looking for evidence and that suggests they don't believe they have all potentially available evidence.

I think it is standard practice to continue gathering as much evidence as possible, even after charging a suspect. I have noticed this seems to happen with many cases I have followed.
They won't want to leave any stone unturned.

 

[Grouse]

The presumption of innocence is a judicial principle adhered to throughout the justice system.

WS member are not part of that system and are allowed to post their own opinions.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

[elliefant]

(Edited to delete first chunk of post as Skigh said it much better than me below)

At the moment, prior to any trial, we just have to be careful not to prejudice the outcome of a trial.

imo

 

[JerseyGirl]

Judge Philip Statman set a trial date for 29 November.

Julia James: Trial date set for man accused of police community support officer's murder

 

[Rosegold68]

So he’s pleading not guilty?

 

[Skigh]

So he’s pleading not guilty?

No. The trial date has been set,but there is a court date set (June 8th ) for him to plead guilty or not guilty. If he pleads guilty there will not be a trial. It will go straight to sentencing.

Wheeler will appear at Maidstone Crown Court for a plea and trial preparation hearing (PTPH) on June 8th.

 

[Distant Observer]

Things are likely to be quiet now until June 8th. Unless there is a major development we shouldn't expect any police press conferences or updates. The police will continue to gather evidence but I wouldn't expect any update on new witnesses or confirmation if the iron bar was indeed the murder weapon really until the trial in November unless CW pleads guilty next month.

Whether CW is guilty or not guilty, one thing which seems clear though is that given the circumstances, there should be no chance of a verdict of the lesser charge of manslaughter.

 

[Tortoise]

Things are likely to be quiet now until June 8th. Unless there is a major development we shouldn't expect any police press conferences or updates. The police will continue to gather evidence but I wouldn't expect any update on new witnesses or confirmation if the iron bar was indeed the murder weapon really until the trial in November unless CW pleads guilty next month.

Whether CW is guilty or not guilty, one thing which seems clear though is that given the circumstances, there should be no chance of a verdict of the lesser charge of manslaughter.

That depends on whether there was diminished responsibility.

Diminished Responsibility: A defence to murder | Brett Wilson LLP

 

[Satchie]

The other point about the presumption of innocence is that it simply places the evidential burden on the state at trial. The accused does not have to prove innocence.

But the state does not presume the defendant innocent. In fact the state are saying he is guilty, and we are entitled to share that view, even should the defendant be found not guilty.

Indeed in my own private life, there is also no "beyond reasonable doubt" aspect to this. I can make my own risk assessments - e.g say my kids sports coach is accused of crimes i don't presume them innocent.

Fair points, but I don't believe LE is the same thing as 'the state'. Unless you are part of a 'police state', where you are guilty just because police say so, and they only go through a charade of proving it, if at all.

ETA: police and prosecution services have been assigned the role of attempting to catch and prove lawbreakers guilty, defense counsel is similarly assigned a role by 'the state', as are judges. 'The state' is the author of the whole system that eventually renders a verdict.

 

[Mrs Marple]

That depends on whether there was diminished responsibility.

Diminished Responsibility: A defence to murder | Brett Wilson LLP

Interesting as effectively it is an admission of guilt of committing the crime then a statement of 'but it wasn't entirely my fault, guv'

He must have been judged as fit to enter a plea.

 

[Skigh]

Interesting as effectively it is an admission of guilt of committing the crime then a statement of 'but it wasn't entirely my fault, guv'

He must have been judged as fit to enter a plea.

He has not yet entered a plea. We do not know what he has said in his police interviews. My own thoughts are that he has not confessed owing to the on going police searches and reconstruction walk.

 

[Mrs Marple]

He has not yet entered a plea. We do not know what he has said in his police interviews. My own thoughts are that has not confessed owing to the on going police searches and reconstruction walk.

Yes sorry to clarify l meant at this stage a date had been set so they must think it most likely he will be able to enter a plea.

 

[Distant Observer]

That depends on whether there was diminished responsibility.

Diminished Responsibility: A defence to murder | Brett Wilson LLP

Oops I'd forgotten about diminished responsibility but in my defence it is decades since I passed my criminal law exams. Depending on the evidence, the defence lawyers may well focus on this defence by showing mental illness or drug-taking.

 

[Skigh]

Kent_999s

There still are large active searches going on in Alyesham.

 

[Newbie2021]

It is really a miracle that a dash cam pic appeared! I mean he is the only suspect. Unbelievable.

I wonder if the image is actually from a police car dash cam? Perhaps a witness statement from the day of the crime gave a description of slim man, dark wavy hair, blue jacket and distinctive Nike bag. Then LE who were working at scene of crime read witness report and said ‘hang on, we drove past him the day after the murder’. They find the pic, show the witness who says ‘yes that’s him’.

But no one locally knows who he is as he either is new to area or keeps himself to himself for whatever reason (plus recent covid lockdown). So LE are forced to make a public appeal. When the photo comes out CW realises he is a marked man especially living so close to the crime scene so tries to make his escape. He might even have caught the train from Aylesham. Dover is only 4 stops away although 13 miles not the 8 miles from home he was reportedly arrested.

 

[Skigh]

I wonder if the image is actually from a police car dash cam? Perhaps a witness statement from the day of the crime gave a description of slim man, dark wavy hair, blue jacket and distinctive Nike bag. Then LE who were working at scene of crime read witness report and said ‘hang on, we drove past him the day after the murder’. They find the pic, show the witness who says ‘yes that’s him’.

But no one locally knows who he is as he either is new to area or keeps himself to himself for whatever reason (plus recent covid lockdown). So LE are forced to make a public appeal. When the photo comes out CW realises he is a marked man especially living so close to the crime scene so tries to make his escape. He might even have caught the train from Aylesham. Dover is only 4 stops away although 13 miles not the 8 miles from home he was reportedly arrested.

I think if a police car saw him in that area the day after the murder,the police would have stopped and spoken to him and taken his name and address and checked him out.

I think it was a member of the public who came forward with the dash cam after the police appeals.

I think like you, he matched the description other witnesses had given of a man they had seen in the local area.

According to police reports he was arrested in Canterbury. How long he had been there we do not know. It has been said a woman posted on Kent Police fb that her daughter had seen him and this was reported to the police.

 

[Newbie2021]

I think if a police car saw him in that area the day after the murder,the police would have stopped and spoken to him and taken his name and address and checked him out.

I think it was a member of the public who came forward with the dash cam after the police appeals.

I think like you, he matched the description other witnesses had given of a man they had seen in the local area.

According to police reports he was arrested in Canterbury. How long he had been there we do not know. It has been said a woman posted on Kent Police fb that her daughter had seen him and this was reported to the police.

Am not sure the police can / would randomly stop anyone close to a crime scene the following day. The ones in the area the next day would be forensics and junior LE doing searches. A separate team would be assigned to door to door. Forensics and the team doing woodland / field searches wouldn’t know at that time the content of witness statements.

The witness statement (assuming there was one) which described photo man might not have been taken until after the photo of photoman was taken. Pooling info and concluding photo man was a person of interest wouldn’t happen immediately. But fortunately someone linked the two.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
I think like you, he matched the description other witnesses had given of a man they had seen in the local area.

Interesting, I'd not heard about this - do you have any links about these other witnesses?

My understanding was that there were no witness reports prior to the publication of the photo, and that it was after the publication that someone posted on Facebook that her daughter had seen someone matching the description. I gather a member of JJ's family saw this, buried within a large number of other responses, and asked them to contact police.

 

[Skigh]

Interesting, I'd not heard about this - do you any links about these other witnesses?

My understanding was that there were no witness reports prior to the publication of the photo, and that it was after the publication that someone posted on Facebook that her daughter had seen someone matching the description. I gather a member of JJ's family saw this, buried within a large number of other responses, and asked them to contact police.

I was referring to the possibility that people had come forward and described a man they had seen in the woods or fields on previous occasions when they had been walking either on the day Julia was killed or perhaps the day(s) before. I did not mean to imply that Police had definitely reported there were witnesses who had described photoman .Sorry for any confusion.

Police did ask for anyone who had been in the area on Monday or Tuesday and had encountered a man who made them feel uneasy or caused them to change the path they were taking.There were also the people who found Julia who might have seen him either before or after Julia was killed .

It was Julia's daughter who saw the comment and responded to it.
I read it on Kent police fb.