Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #137

[OverTheRhine]

$325,000 thats a huge reward he must has some pretty loyal friends and family... thats if hes got any of course

Just wondering is anyone up to speed on just how many tips have actually been to submitted to the tipline to date?

From the Q&A with Tobe Leazenby:

Q. How many total tips have been received? How many this year? How many this month?

A. Total throughout the investigation is approximately 50,000.

This was back in February of this year I believe.

 

[keep-it-real]

I don't think they've given an update on the total number of tips recently but in 2019 it was already over 42,000....https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/delphi-murders-over-42-000-tips-received-since-libby-abbys-death

In February 2020 they were saying they still get 4 or 5 per day. Delphi murders investigation still fueled by tips after three years

However, each time there is a new podcast, tv special, or speculation about a possible POI, I imagine the tip line goes crazy.

Thank you for that. Does Indiana police provide a breakdown of the cost of their investigation so far, specialists consulted in the case, and any out of State travel officers in the case have made. Also how many witness statements were taken.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you for that. Does Indiana police provide a breakdown of the cost of their investigation so far, specialists consulted in the case, and any out of State travel officers in the case have made. Also how many witness statements were taken.

No to a cost breakdown.
No to how many witness statements were taken.
No breakdown of specialists consulted or out of state travel made, other than to say yes, both have occurred.

Here's one example of a consultation they engaged in: https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...ators-fbi-asked-to-review-libby-abbys-murders

 

[keep-it-real]

No to a cost breakdown.
No to how many witness statements were taken.
No breakdown of specialists consulted or out of state travel made, other than to say yes, both have occurred.

Here's one example of a consultation they engaged in: https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...ators-fbi-asked-to-review-libby-abbys-murders

Im stunned. Is this normal practice in the U.S.?

 

[Yemelyan]

Just a who's who on the investigative team, as far as is currently documented by MSM:

Who is in charge of the investigation? The jurisdiction is the Carroll County Sheriff's Office because it "is the agency who routinely patrols and responds to calls for police services in a given jurisdiction." (Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet )

The lead investigator, however, is Indiana State Police detective First Sgt. Jerry Holeman. (Source: Delphi, Indiana murders: 2 years later, lead investigator updates case ) He leads a task force assigned to the murders that is called "multi-agency" in nature and is made up of "two county detectives, two ISP detectives, and from time to time, outside detectives from other police agencies, including the FBI. A portion of the team meets almost daily but with technology, meetings are not always “in person.” (source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet )

More about lead investigator Holeman: He's been with the ISP for over 20 years. He was promoted to First Sgt. in 2016. He currently serves as District Investigative Commander for the Lafayette region. He's been a detective in the Criminal Investigation Division of the ISP since around 2009 and has been the Investigative Squad Leader of all ISP detectives in the region since 2014. (Source: https://local.nixle.com/alert/5687880/ ) He is a graduate of the FBI National Academy Program in Quantico, VA as of 2017. This is a program to which the top 1% of law enforcement officers are selected to attend. More info: On average, these officers have 21 years of law enforcement experience and usually return to their agencies to serve in executive-level positions....Training for the program is provided by the FBI Academy instructional staff, special agents and other staff members holding advanced degrees, many of whom are recognized internationally in their fields of expertise. (Source: First Sergeant Jerry Holeman Graduates from FBI National Academy )

 

[Yemelyan]

Im stunned. Is this normal practice in the U.S.?

For active investigations? IMO yes. You sometimes see "we have this many officers doing XYZ" but a cost breakdown? No. A listing of exactly how many witness statements or exactly where investigators traveled? No. You might find this out in a very cold case or at a trial.

 

[keep-it-real]

For active investigations? IMO yes. You sometimes see "we have this many officers doing XYZ" but a cost breakdown? No. A listing of exactly how many witness statements or exactly where investigators traveled? No. You might find this out in a very cold case or at a trial.

Thank you you have been most informative.
A few more questions if you dont mind. When is a case considered Cold and who decides that. How do the indiana police treat cold cases as opposed to an open case, and at what stage would they choose to close a Cold Case. After closure of a case are the details of the case open for the public to have access to?

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you you have been most informative.
A few more questions if you dont mind. When is a case considered Cold and who decides that. How do the indiana police treat cold cases as opposed to an open case, and at what stage would they choose to close a Cold Case. After closure of a case are the details of the case open for the public to have access to?

Usually the standard LE refers to is, a case is considered cold when there are no more tips coming in and no detective is actively working on it.

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said in February 2021 that this is still far from a cold case (and as we know that they still have four detectives working it on a daily basis from more than one agency, it doesn't meet that definition): Delphi deaths, 4 years later

Superintendent Doug Carter, head of the ISP, says in the Down the Hill podcast that in his opinion, there is no such thing as a cold case.

 

[Yemelyan]

In this case, the autopsy reports are sealed: Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47

Search warrants have also been sealed.

I think the general rule in most states is that once a judge seals something like an autopsy report, that does not become unsealed until such a time as the case is adjudicated.

 

[rypj84]

I might be in the minority here, but I believe that the reason LE has not released any more information to the public is because they don't need any more information. If they already have cod, evidence, time and place, motive and most likely POI, then it seems logical to me that the only missing piece is waiting for an alibi to fall apart. With all of the bureaus involved from day one, how can anyone believe that this case has been handled poorly? Moo

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

My concern is that with the physical evidence they have, they have not been able to exclude Paul Etter either (or many other potential suspects, some known to the public and some unknown).

In your professional opinion, approximately how many other potential suspects, unbeknownst to the public, does LE have regarding this case?

 

[Laura456]

$325,000 thats a huge reward he must has some pretty loyal friends and family... thats if hes got any of course

Just wondering is anyone up to speed on just how many tips have actually been to submitted to the tipline to date?

I don't think it's loyalty. I think it's part disbelief and denial and part that their family depend on the income/help. Elderly parent or stay at home mom. They're afraid of what will happen to them, I think, if he's arrested.

 

[keep-it-real]

I don't think it's loyalty. I think it's part disbelief and denial and part that their family depend on the income/help. Elderly parent or stay at home mom. They're afraid of what will happen to them, I think, if he's arrested.

Here in the UK we have an excellent Social Security System which supports the type of people and households you mention both finacially and with goverment organisations who support their welfare needs . I understand not every country is able to offer this kind of financial and social welfare support.

Could I ask your opinion, for how long would you estimate $325,000 would support an average family in the U.S.?

 

[Yemelyan]

In your professional opinion, approximately how many other potential suspects, unbeknownst to the public, does LE have regarding this case?

I don't think anyone here could have an accurate take on this. We just don't know enough.

I think we heard TL say in the HLN special that he had a list of 20 or so that was eventually narrowed to 4 or 5 names. And we heard the former prosecutor say in the podcast Down the Hill that while he worked on the case he had 2 or 3 individuals whose names came up who he thought might have done it but he never reached a level of certainty on any of them. That was from the Down the Hill episode "Signatures."

 

[Yemelyan]

Here in the UK we have an excellent Social Security System which supports the type of people and households you mention both finacially and with goverment organisations who support their welfare needs . I understand not every country is able to offer this kind of financial and social welfare support.

Could I ask your opinion, for how long would you estimate $325,000 would support an average family in the U.S.?

It sounds like a huge amount of money, and it would last longer in rural Indiana than other places in the US, but it won't last as long as you think.

There's actually a calculator that tells you how long you can expect a certain amount of money to last depending on how much you need to spend each month on rent, food, bills, car payment, health insurance etc. If you had a VERY low rent, no debt, and didn't require paid child care it might last you around 10 years. When will $300,000 run out? How long will my savings of 300,000 dollars last?

If you needed to totally rebuild your life because this person is in jail (new place to live, new car, someone to watch your kid while you worked), if you had a lot of kids, or if you needed skilled nursing care, the money won't go very far. If your credit is bad, you might not ever be able to replace some things because you don't qualify on your own. Child care sometimes costs more than women can earn when they work.

I'd also point out that there are often conditions on the reward money such as, the person needs to be convicted of the crime before the reward pays out. What are you going to live on while the trial drags on?

 

[keep-it-real]

It sounds like a huge amount of money, and it would last longer in rural Indiana than other places in the US, but it won't last as long as you think.

There's actually a calculator that tells you how long you can expect a certain amount of money to last depending on how much you need to spend each month on rent, food, bills, car payment, health insurance etc. If you had a VERY low rent, no debt, and didn't require paid child care it might last you around 10 years. When will $300,000 run out? How long will my savings of 300,000 dollars last?

Thank you as always most informative it gives me some insight to how Amercian society is structured and how it affects individuals with certain needs and how their decisions may be affected.

If you needed to totally rebuild your life because this person is in jail (new place to live, new car, someone to watch your kid while you worked), if you had a lot of kids, or if you needed skilled nursing care, the money won't go very far. If your credit is bad, you might not ever be able to replace some things because you don't qualify on your own. Child care sometimes costs more than women can earn when they work.

I'd also point out that there are often conditions on the reward money such as, the person needs to be convicted of the crime before the reward pays out. What are you going to live on while the trial drags on?

Thank you than gives me an idea of how American society is structured and how that affects someone in decisions they may make.
What happens when a person isnt turned in but LE through their own investigations turn up and arrest the person, how does that affect the families situation?

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you than gives me an idea of how American society is structured and how that affects someone in decisions they may make.
What happens when a person isnt turned in but police through their own investigations turn up and arrest the person, how does that affect the families situation?

Let's say just for the sake of this example that the person arrested has a wife or a girlfriend. Maybe she suspected him or maybe not, but after police arrest him, what will happen?

Socially, she faces possible ostracism from her family, his family, her friends, her workplace, her children's school, the town, and strangers on the internet who will hound her on Facebook. People will be questioning what she knew and when she knew it (even if she apparently knew nothing, like BTK's family). She will be known in national media as the wife/girlfriend of a double child murderer. Depending on what details come out about the crime, the rumor mill may have her convicted of various crimes as well.

Financially, no reward money is coming. If she is leasing a house or apartment, she could be evicted right away as most leases state that if ANY occupant is arrested for a felony, the lease is terminated. Good luck getting another place to live with an eviction on your record. How well she can make it on her own will probably depend a lot on how many kids she has and what kind of childcare they need. Most jobs that offer mother's hours don't pay very much. In many parts of America, minimum wage is still around $8-$9 per hour and most part-time jobs do not offer benefits like health care. Another consideration is how well she was doing financially before this all happened. Is she already trying to pay down a lot of debt? Is her credit good enough to get another car if he's in jail? Without a car, what kinds of jobs can she get?

In my mind, a person who suspected their boyfriend/husband and turned them in is no doubt doing the "right" thing but they may have well and truly messed up their life and the lives of their own kids by doing so. I don't think it's an easy decision if all you have is suspicion.

This is why investigators have said that cases sometimes resolve years later when relationships change and people start talking about what they know. It's not because they had a moral crisis, it's because they ended up in a more secure financial situation or got out of an abusive situation they were trapped in.

 

[keep-it-real]

Let's say just for the sake of this example that the person arrested has a wife or a girlfriend. Maybe she suspected him or maybe not, but after police arrest him, what will happen?

Socially, she faces possible ostracism from her family, his family, her friends, her workplace, her children's school, the town, and strangers on the internet who will hound her on Facebook. People will be questioning what she knew and when she knew it (even if she apparently knew nothing, like BTK's family). She will be known in national media as the wife/girlfriend of a double child murderer. Depending on what details come out about the crime, the rumor mill may have her convicted of various crimes as well.

Financially, no reward money is coming. If she is leasing a house or apartment, she could be evicted right away as most leases state that if ANY occupant is arrested for a felony, the lease is terminated. Good luck getting another place to live with an eviction on your record. How well she can make it on her own will probably depend a lot on how many kids she has and what kind of childcare they need. Most jobs that offer mother's hours don't pay very much. In many parts of America, minimum wage is still around $8-$9 per hour and most part-time jobs do not offer benefits like health care. Another consideration is how well she was doing financially before this all happened. Is she already trying to pay down a lot of debt? Is her credit good enough to get another car if he's in jail? Without a car, what kinds of jobs can she get?

In my mind, a person who suspected their boyfriend/husband and turned them in is no doubt doing the "right" thing but they may have well and truly messed up their life and the lives of their own kids by doing so. I don't think it's an easy decision if all you have is suspicion.

This is why investigators have said that cases sometimes resolve years later when relationships change and people start talking about what they know. It's not because they had a moral crisis, it's because they ended up in a more secure financial situation or got out of an abusive situation they were trapped in.

So if they can detatch themselves emotionally and physically from the person the most practical way forward would be turn then in for the reward monies?

There is always of course the posiibility that they could be both involved in the crime!

Just a few questions for my own interest.
1. The lease agreement: Would all the people who live there have to all apear on the lease or can the lease be held in just one persons name?
2. Is there no social housing that supports familes of convicted criminals?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just a couple of thoughts on the recent discussion here.
1) I remember LE saying they had narrowed it down to 4 or 5 and I thought at that moment this investigation is in real trouble. After this amount of time, you’re waivering between that many people? I don’t see how that plays into the “just dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s” scenario or the “just waiting for the alibi to crumble” scenario.
2) Sometimes doing the right thing is the right thing to do. Without expecting anything in return. If every crime ever committed had had to wait for a witness or someone with information to audit the financial and emotional effect it would have on them before contacting police, nobody would be in jail. It’s hard. It has consequences. Yet through history people have repeatedly come through in helping to solve crimes...because it benefits the community and others and victim’s families...and it’s the right thing to do.
I’m not sure LE has a clear idea who is responsible(though I think JBC is a good possibility), and I don’t really think anybody’s family member or friend suspects this guy simply because nobody has come forward and done the right thing.

 

[Yemelyan]

Just a couple of thoughts on the recent discussion here.
1) I remember LE saying they had narrowed it down to 4 or 5 and I thought at that moment this investigation is in real trouble. After this amount of time, you’re waivering between that many people? I don’t see how that plays into the “just dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s” scenario or the “just waiting for the alibi to crumble” scenario.
2) Sometimes doing the right thing is the right thing to do. Without expecting anything in return. If every crime ever committed had had to wait for a witness or someone with information to audit the financial and emotional effect it would have on them before contacting police, nobody would be in jail. It’s hard. It has consequences. Yet through history people have repeatedly come through in helping to solve crimes...because it benefits the community and others and victim’s families...and it’s the right thing to do.
I’m not sure LE has a clear idea who is responsible(though I think JBC is a good possibility), and I don’t really think anybody’s family member or friend suspects this guy simply because nobody has come forward and done the right thing.

To your point #1, I agree, I don't see how that plays into the "we know who it is but can't prove it/waiting on alibi to crumble" scenario.

To your point #2, I have to respectfully disagree. I posted a study here awhile back that showed that people who acted to tip police based on accurate knowledge were motivated to do so no matter the amount of the reward. So people tended to do the right thing whether they got $500 or $25,000. However, a higher reward was not associated with a reward being more likely to be paid out, or with more accurate tips. It was just associated with a greater number of tips overall. (Information on that study is here: Do Cash Rewards For Crime Tips Work? )

So what that tells me is that rewards work well if it's something like "I heard people talking that Jimmy might have shot John after they argued." I don't think they work as well when people have to really think about "if my husband did this then everyone will know I was having sex with a pedophile and pretty soon my three children and I will be living out of my car."

I'm NOT saying that the right thing to do isn't always the right thing to do. I'm saying the mental gymnastics to get to that point can be astronomically hard with or without a reward.

Some sources:

When big rewards on offer, they are rarely claimed. Do cash rewards actually help catch criminals?

Criminologists said there are no solid national studies showing that large rewards are any more effective than smaller rewards or any other tactic in solving crimes.
Do big rewards help solve crimes?

Barb Bergin, chairwoman of Crime Stoppers USA, says the prospect of higher rewards for cases that receive more publicity may increase the number of tips or calls. That doesn't necessarily mean those tips help solve the case or lead to higher rewards being paid out. "Nationally we are seeing programs who are paying out as little as 15 to 20% of their available rewards," Bergin says.
Do Cash Rewards For Crime Tips Work?