CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

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GatorFL said:
MSR actually makes them up to 10L. But they're not for day hiking, it's more of a portable bag for basecamp water. I've never seen someone carrying bigger than a 3L. Much easier to have the 3L and supplement w 1L bottles for a day hike.
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MSR does sell a hose to attach to the large bags for another twenty bucks, "Converts Dromedary and DromLite bags to hydration systems". But I think this was a spur of the moment Sunday morning hike, not a carefully planned expedition with a specially purchased high capacity hydration system. 8.5 miles, ~3 mph pace, 8 am start, an extra hour for rest stops- they probably thought they'd be done by noon. Not unreasonable, except for the heat. MOO
 
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Also, wouldn’t they know the difference in a trail and a road, and trails are ma
MrsEmmaPeel said:
This thread is like Groundhog Day. The same questions, the same answers, the same theories, around and around as new people join and don't read prior posts. (ie if you have trail questions, check the maps and posts provided by @RedHaus first.)

IMO, there are only two reasons LE hasn't given a new public announcement:

1. They're waiting to brief all close family members with results which will not be popular with them, ie Heat Stroke. (J and E too smart for that. . . )

2. They have questions that point to foul play and are holding cards close.

Any other reasons? I can't quite believe all test results aren't in unless this case is the bottom priority of all state, federal test agencies.

As always, I am MOOing.
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FWIW, if not interested in rehashing, there’s always the easy option to scroll and roll. I have done it frequently on many other threads.
 
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Auntie Cipation said:
@RedHaus . . . But if the western part of the Highway 140 trail is labelled "easy" (I'm saying if, don't know if that's actually true) I could see them deciding to do an easy mile or two that morning.

And then, because they ended up on the wrong HC (maybe because they saw it on a road sign and weren't aware there are multiple HC trails), found themselves in trouble. And for reasons we don't know they ended up doing the loop and coming up Savage-Lundy as opposed to backtracking on HC OHV road.
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I have wondered that. However, I think it would only work if Jon were working from memory and confused Hites Cove Rd with Hites Cove Trail, the one off 140 -- from past research. If he visited AllTrails recently, the difference in the app's entries for Hites Cove Rd (OHV) and HC Trail is quickly apparent. There is always New Dad and Covid Fog.
 
MrsEmmaPeel said:
I have wondered that. However, I think it would only work if Jon were working from memory and confused Hites Cove Rd with Hites Cove Trail, the one off 140 -- from past research. If he visited AllTrails recently, the difference in the app's entries for Hites Cove Rd (OHV) and HC Trail is quickly apparent. There is always New Dad and Covid Fog.
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I can’t see the confusion - there’s no real road signs to confuse. To me it looks like you need to go left or right and up or down. It’s not like there’s loads of trails to choose from MOO
 
Auntie Cipation said:
@RedHaus I think either loop on your map was too much for the weather that day and I don't think the family would have intended to tackle either.

But if the western part of the Highway 140 trail is labelled "easy" (I'm saying if, don't know if that's actually true) I could see them deciding to do an easy mile or two that morning.

And then, because they ended up on the wrong HC (maybe because they saw it on a road sign and weren't aware there are multiple HC trails), found themselves in trouble. And for reasons we don't know they ended up doing the loop and coming up Savage-Lundy as opposed to backtracking on HC OHV road.
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They live on Hite Cove Road, Hite Cove OHV is at the end of their street, less than two miles from their home. Why would they want to drive to the Hite Cove Trailhead on 140 about 30 minutes away?

I'm sure they or Jon knew the difference between the two. Hite Cove Trail is very popular for Spring wildflowers, probably the most well-known for the Sierra foothills, crowded on weekends at the time. It's considered easy first several miles, I knew a man over 85, hiker all his life, who did a couple of miles on it. I'm sure J&E saw the well-marked trailhead when going east on 140 and did not confuse the two.

ETA Someone posted earlier that Jon's AllTrails show he completed the Hite Cove Trail on 140 four years ago.

I would think since they had bought the house less than three weeks earlier they were curious what was down the end of their street.
 
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I'm not at all suggesting they intended to go to hwy 140 to a trailhead.

What I was pondering was that perhaps they didn't realize there were so many variations of Hite/s Cove roads and trails. They obviously know Hites Cove Road as they have a home right there. They might have seen the reviews online for "Hites Cove Trail" as being rated easy and simply assumed that must be the trail off Hites Cove Road. I was speculating there might be road signs along HC Road indicating "two miles to trailhead" and not registered the specific trail names.

I know some folks have posted that they had been on these specific trails before but I have not seen that confirmed anywhere. And I don't think anyone has confirmed which specific trail JG searched online?

So all this is just speculation. I'm not even saying I think it's what happened, just trying to throw out ideas to see if any of them strike us as plausible.

With most cases I have followed on WS, I've seen wide ranges of speculation by posters, which only narrows once new information is released by LE or the media. That's what I expect to happen here. And while I haven't been on WS long enough to see cases go completely cold and unsolved, I know that also happens and is a possibility here too.
 
Auntie Cipation said:
I'm not at all suggesting they intended to go to hwy 140 to a trailhead.

What I was pondering was that perhaps they didn't realize there were so many variations of Hite/s Cove roads and trails. They obviously know Hites Cove Road as they have a home right there. They might have seen the reviews online for "Hites Cove Trail" as being rated easy and simply assumed that must be the trail off Hites Cove Road. I was speculating there might be road signs along HC Road indicating "two miles to trailhead" and not registered the specific trail names.
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BBM...also snipped.

I was trying to figure where you were coming from, now I understand. It's obvious that WHATEVER route they took, they would still have to hike uphill back to where they parked and that wasn't on the hwy 140. So here you're positing that they may have mistaken the HC Road they actually took for the one REVIEWED ON LINE (*easy*), which was the trail off the 140. The only problem I have with this, is that I find it hard to believe that the review wouldn't MENTION HWY 140 trail head some where in this write up. If that's the case, they would have known the trail they went down was NOT the one reviewed on line. Just MOO
 
SophieRose said:
They live on Hite Cove Road, Hite Cove OHV is at the end of their street, less than two miles from their home. Why would they want to drive to the Hite Cove Trailhead on 140 about 30 minutes away?

I'm sure they or Jon knew the difference between the two. Hite Cove Trail is very popular for Spring wildflowers, probably the most well-known for the Sierra foothills, crowded on weekends at the time. It's considered easy first several miles, I knew a man over 85, hiker all his life, who did a couple of miles on it. I'm sure J&E saw the well-marked trailhead when going east on 140 and did not confuse the two.

ETA Someone posted earlier that Jon's AllTrails show he completed the Hite Cove Trail on 140 four years ago.

I would think since they had bought the house less than three weeks earlier they were curious what was down the end of their street.
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What if Jon guessed that their new home road led to the end of Hites Cove Trail? He remembers the HCT trailhead on 140 and hiking it four years ago and assumes/guesses it leads to Hites Cove Road eventually. (which it does if you know your way, know how long and hard a hike it is, or have a good map.) So they pick up HCT OHV at the end of their own street, thinking they are on a trail resembling the Hites Cove Trail Jon hiked four years ago. Trouble is, HCT OHV is no HCT. But they wouldn't know that as they begin walking down to the river.

They never intended to hike to 140. The idea was a kind of trail that seemed doable and pleasant. Like the trail of 4 years ago.

I know, I know, you all argue Jon is fully familiar with the area. I just don't take that for granted. I believe there are plenty of reasons why this hike was a get-to-know-the-new-neighborhood event that went horribly wrong.
 
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Pumphouse363 said:
I can’t see the confusion - there’s no real road signs to confuse. To me it looks like you need to go left or right and up or down. It’s not like there’s loads of trails to choose from MOO
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And a road is wider than a trail, an obvious difference. And the trail heads are clearly marked, surely. I have doubts they mistook the road for the trail.

I have my own story about being too gung-ho on a hike. Our 6-7 y/o son was with us. Let’s just say back in the day, I was an ambitious hiker.
I’m not saying that’s what happened in this case at all, it’s just one remote possibility.
 
MrsEmmaPeel said:
What if Jon guessed that their new home road led to the end of Hites Cove Trail? He remembers the HCT trailhead on 140 and hiking it four years ago and assumes/guesses it leads to Hites Cove Road eventually. (which it does if you know your way, know how long and hard a hike it is, or have a good map.) So they pick up HCT OHV at the end of their own street, thinking they are on a trail resembling the Hites Cove Trail Jon hiked four years ago. Trouble is, HCT OHV is no HCT. But they wouldn't know that as they begin walking down to the river.

They never intended to hike to 140. The idea was a kind of trail that seemed doable and pleasant. Like the trail of 4 years ago.
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BBM and Snipped
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, the HCT off the 140 (easy 1-2 miles) isn't very steep?. If that's true, then you would have a STARK contrast between the Trail and the OHV, the HC OHV being very steep! They would know this from the get go. Being steep, they also know no matter WHAT they do, they're going to have to *reclaim* the elevation at some point. MOO
 
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MOO Let’s say just for the sake of discussion that JG and/or EC were familiar with the trail off 140 and knew/guessed it connected with HC OHV Rd. Why would you guess they didn’t continue on HC Rd. instead of “winging it” along the river?

MOO Let’s just say they took the south/east fork believing the trail lead down to the river at some point. But having limited water and having walked three miles or so by now wouldn’t most people turn around to hike back up? One trail or another you have to hike up ~2000’. So why do you continue on along the river another mile or so just looking for an unknown trail (3 mile as it turns out) back up? JG and EC knew and understood what they had hiked down. The temperatures were getting warmer. The day wore on. It could easily have been 10:00 or 11:00 am.

JMO It doesn’t seem like they would change their route for an unknown route unless there was something behind them that posed a threat something more than the steepness of the climb because they would be risking the well-being of their daughter and the family pet.

I’m not seeing it. IMO
 
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rahod1 said:
BBM and Snipped
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, the HCT off the 140 (easy 1-2 miles) is relatively LEVEL. If that's true, then you would have a STARK contrast between the Trail and the OHV, the HC OHV being very steep! They would know this from the get go. Being steep, they also know no matter WHAT they do, they're going to have to *reclaim* the elevation at some point. MOO
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Very true. Unless as has been proposed earlier they chose to continue the hike west (not east) along the South fork to 140. JMO
 
Han said:
MOO Let’s say just for the sake of discussion that JG and/or EC were familiar with the trail off 140 and knew/guessed it connected with HC OHV Rd. Why would you guess they didn’t continue on HC Rd. instead of “winging it” along the river?

MOO Let’s just say they took the south/east fork believing the trail lead down to the river at some point. But having limited water and having walked three miles or so by now wouldn’t most people turn around to hike back up? One trail or another you have to hike up ~2000’. So why do you continue on along the river another mile or so just looking for an unknown trail (3 mile as it turns out) back up? JG and EC knew and understood what they had hiked down. The temperatures were getting warmer. The day wore on. It could easily have been 10:00 or 11:00 am.

JMO It doesn’t seem like they would change their route for an unknown route unless there was something behind them that posed a threat even if that threat was nothing more than the steepness of the climb because they would be risking the well-being of their daughter and the family pet.


I’m not seeing it. IMO
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I agree that that is possible (i.e. something behind them), but I think it's more likely that they thought if they just went a bit further they would find their way up. You can convince yourself to move forward ("just a bit futher") to check things out and then it becomes a bit further and a bit further, and now you are invested and don't want to go all of the way back.
I could see me doing this. It's human nature.
 
What I'm suggesting is that HCT may have felt familiar. It had been hiked. HCR is familiar. It's the road they live on. Eventually HCR and HCT DO CONNECT, but that was not the GC's intent (in my scenario.) It was the idea that choosing HCR felt more familiar than choosing S-L, which is the real hiking trail at the end of the road and even sounds "savage."

As for markings or how HCT OHV looks, I cannot say.

To see how beautiful, how popular a hike Hites Cove Trail is (off 140) you can see lots of photos on Instagram by searching #hitescove. They're stunning. I did not see any photos after May.
 
Just my two cents; I would be surprised if they weren’t familiar with the trail, having owned property in Mariposa since at least 2017 per Ellen’s Instagram (she posted a picture of a snowy scene in “Mariposa” on January 27, 2017, and hashtag’d it “our backyard” and #tbt, suggesting it pre-dated 2017).

Those switchbacks are such a distinctive feature on maps; I find it hard to believe they would not have been aware of the SL trail and how to get there.
 
Snoopster said:
I agree that that is possible (i.e. something behind them), but I think it's more likely that they thought if they just went a bit further they would find their way up. You can convince yourself to move forward ("just a bit futher") to check things out and then it becomes a bit further and a bit further, and now you are invested and don't want to go all of the way back.
I could see me doing this. It's human nature.
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BBM

Just picking up on that scenario..... they had to choose between going BACK UP from where they came or venture further down stream. So they were committed to move forward for the reason you stated. The decision to return from where they came would be daunting so they decided to move forward along the river. In a sense they were >>MOO>> lulled by the relative ease of this segment. "IN FOR A PENNY, IN FOR A POUND" became the driving force once they decided not to return back from where they came. One thing for sure....they must have known they would need to climb back up at some point and were hoping that segment would be less arduous than going back up from where they came. MOO
 
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