MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[bestill]

I have a gut feeling that Ethan and his parents flat out denied he had access to a gun during the meeting; therefore, the school didn't believe that the backpack needed searched. The school was worried that Ethan was a suicide risk and wanted the parents to take him for psychiatric help that day, but they declined.
It appears to me that Ethan's parents were emotionally uninvolved with him (they took care of him materially) and were completely self-involved. Just the facts that they refused to take him home when he appeared seriously suicidal and suffering the day of the shooting, and then fled leaving him behind to face his charges alone shows that they really don't care about him, but only themselves.
And the whole 'they were scared and going to turn themselves in Saturday morning' is crap. They didn't need a plan to surrender.... they could've called the police or 911 and given their location so the huge manhunt didn't have to occur at all. They're straight up full of it.

BBM - Interested to see how all this plays out. Will they turn on each other? Who is Ethan's attorney and who's paying for their representation?

 

[otto]

Yes.

Michelle Cobb (ex wife) claims that while James Crumbley was earning six figures, she had to fight for $67 a week child support for their son, Eli. “My son is 18 years old now,” she told Detroit’s WXYZ-TV. “And you know, I cried the moment he turned 18, because I thought all of this hell is over as far as dealing with my son’s father.”

The Florida woman also claimed James, 45, left their son, as well as a daughter he had with another woman in Florida, when he moved to Michigan with Jennifer.

Jennifer, meanwhile, made Eli’s life unbearable when he would visit. “Jennifer was a monster,” Cobb stated. “She could do no wrong and she was right about everything.”

Eli was last at their Michigan home when the pandemic started, she said. “The first thing that came to my mind when all of this happened was how thankful that I was that my son was not there.”

Ex claims Ethan Crumbley's father a deadbeat dad, calls mother a 'monster'

Although I understand that the ex-wife's statement fits nicely into the desired belief that the parents are responsible for the actions of their 15 year old son, what I hear in the statement is an ex-wife who is angry about the amount of child support she was allowed to receive, angry that child support was unpaid, and not happy about her ex-husband's wife.

I don't think anything she said has anything to do with the shootings. Realistically, a man who had three children with three different women did not raise three children to shoot children at school. One of the three children clearly has psychological problems that were not addressed by the school, the police, or the parents.

The drawing was clearly a cry for help, very likely help for something that was happening in the school. The school's decision to have him removed from the school, rather than address what happened in the school to trigger the psychological problems, was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.

I’m still so shocked that they didn’t do this. It’s so standard in high schools these days. Perhaps his parents were such pains in the you-know-what, and they were expecting him to be be taken home they were caught off guard and forgot? I suspect something like that happened, but who knows. I do appreciate how hard it must be for schools to deal with difficult parents in these times.

If the child shooter was bullied at school and no one did anything to help, how is telling the upset child to leave the school helping? That's blaming the victim.

"Investigators said they are still trying to determine a motive for the deadly shooting because the suspect isn’t speaking to them. However, some classmates have said Crumbley was bullied, according to the Detroit Free Press."
​

Michigan school shooting suspect identified as Ethan Crumbley

 

[NicMed329]

Could be. But, why would she text? Why not call? (Texting leaves a record of parental attempt to intervene.) He had not expressed suicidal ideation before. If I thought my baby was going to commit suicide, I would be calling. Maybe she did call but we don't seem to have that evidence of that yet. I think it was about optics. I don't trust these adults as far as I could throw them. This murdering kid could have had a chance to be interrupted, get mental health help and gone on to be a productive citizen. He was failed by these people and the school. I haven't seen much that is not self-serving that the parents have done.

the parents don

This is interesting.

After reading all the posts I mulled on the idea of the drawing.
I concluded - either EC was in desperate need of help - NOT schizophrenia (too young), but possibly a psychotic episode or drug related psychosis manifesting in hearing voices telling him to act out instructions.

OR.

The drawing was a goading, mocking, malevolent and sinister act designed as a threat. Part of his fantasy. And possibly 'pretending' to be mentally ill.

I now conclude the latter.

JMO MOO

I’m a social worker in an Inpt psych hospital and imo thoughts don’t mean voices necessarily but it definitely appears he has obsessive thoughts for sure. Probably more cluster b personality type which I don’t consider mental illness personally imo.

Cluster B personality disorders: Types and symptoms (medicalnewstoday.com)

I had to look up Cluster B personality disorder since I was not familiar with it

thank you! I meant to do that but bath time with the baby interrupted lol

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Although I understand that the ex-wife's statement fits nicely into the desired belief that the parents are responsible for the actions of their 15 year old son, what I hear in the statement is an ex-wife who is angry about the amount of child support she was allowed to receive, angry that child support was unpaid, and not happy about her ex-husband's wife.

I don't think anything she said has anything to do with the shootings. Realistically, a man who had three children with three different women did not raise three children to shoot children at school. One of the three children clearly has psychological problems that were not addressed by the school, the police, or the parents.

The drawing was clearly a cry for help, very likely help for something that was happening in the school. The school's decision to have him removed from the school, rather than address what happened in the school to trigger the psychological problems, was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.



If the child shooter was bullied at school and no one did anything to help, how is telling the upset child to leave the school helping? That's blaming the victim.

"Investigators said they are still trying to determine a motive for the deadly shooting because the suspect isn’t speaking to them. However, some classmates have said Crumbley was bullied, according to the Detroit Free Press."
​

Michigan school shooting suspect identified as Ethan Crumbley

BBM. The school never removed him, they sent him back to the classroom which has been a heavily discussed topic of why no immediate action was taken, backpack searched, kept in the counselors office, call LE

 

[otto]

BBM. The school never removed him, they sent him back to the classroom which has been a heavily discussed topic of why no immediate action was taken, backpack searched, kept in the counselors office, call LE

I understand that the school advised the parents that the child needed counselling, and the prosecutor claims that the parents were told to remove the child from the school but they resisted.

If the child was bullied at school such that other children were aware of it, and the school had a violent drawing of a school shooting, but the school decision was to remove the upset, bullied child rather than get to the root of the problem - I see that as a failure by the school to keep students safe.

"The office of Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald filed involuntary manslaughter charges against the Crumbleys on Friday, accusing them of failing to intervene on the day of the tragedy ...

The Crumbleys committed "egregious" acts, from buying a gun on Black Friday and making it available to their son to resisting his removal from school when they were summoned a few hours before the shooting, McDonald said Friday."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

 

[ilovewings]

I understand that the school advised the parents that the child needed counselling, and the prosecutor claims that the parents were told to remove the child from the school but they resisted.

If the child was bullied at school such that other children were aware of it, and the school had a violent drawing of a school shooting, but the school decision was to remove the upset, bullied child rather than get to the root of the problem - I see that as a failure by the school to keep students safe.

"The office of Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald filed involuntary manslaughter charges against the Crumbleys on Friday, accusing them of failing to intervene on the day of the tragedy ...

The Crumbleys committed "egregious" acts, from buying a gun on Black Friday and making it available to their son to resisting his removal from school when they were summoned a few hours before the shooting, McDonald said Friday."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

There is enough blame to go around: the shooter of course, his parents and the school- I think eventually they will have to do a minute to minute breakdown and time line over a number of days leading up to and including the day of the shooting. There will also have to be a breakdown of who specifically (teachers, principal, counselors) dropped the ball. We may not learn all of this for a while, maybe not until the trial, if there is one. There will also be a digital trail of texts, emails, etc.

 

[KMouse]

Yes, both the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel and The Ambassador Bridge go to Canada. Neither allows pedestrians.
Detroit-Windsor Tunnel | Home
Main Page Ambassador Bridge

You can actually see Detroit from Windsor and vice versa. I don't see how they would successfully cross though. And I would think trying to cross the Detroit river illegally even a small boat would be quickly spotted.

I suppose there's also a possibility they were trying to arrange transportation to some other place in the US.

Well it's hella cold here now and a boat on the water would stand out significantly even if they could have gotten one.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I understand that the school advised the parents that the child needed counselling, and the prosecutor claims that the parents were told to remove the child from the school but they resisted.

If the child was bullied at school such that other children were aware of it, and the school had a violent drawing of a school shooting, but the school decision was to remove the upset, bullied child rather than get to the root of the problem - I see that as a failure by the school to keep students safe.

"The office of Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald filed involuntary manslaughter charges against the Crumbleys on Friday, accusing them of failing to intervene on the day of the tragedy ...

The Crumbleys committed "egregious" acts, from buying a gun on Black Friday and making it available to their son to resisting his removal from school when they were summoned a few hours before the shooting, McDonald said Friday."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

I understand what you’re saying but I think on that day the concern was the immediate possible threat, the immediate need for him to seek help. I don’t view that as they are trying to solve the problem long-term, just the immediate need. Per the press conferences, the school had no previous interaction with Ethan, no complaints of bullying from him and bullying was not the reason he was sent to the office that morning, it was the very disturbing drawing. We don’t know what all led up to this day, bullying may have been a part of the equation, it may not have been, but again I think they were reacting to the drawing and the immediate need/ his cry for help. Even if someone is being terribly bullied, I don’t think removing them from that situation is a bad thing while they try to get a handle on things and correct behaviors

 

[MadisonS]

The drawing was clearly a cry for help, very likely help for something that was happening in the school. The school's decision to have him removed from the school, rather than address what happened in the school to trigger the psychological problems, was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.

But he had a loaded weapon with him when that alleged straw appeared. IMO he had been planning to shoot his classmates for some time.

I think he was bullied, but is there any evidence that the kids he shot had abused him? He shot through closed doors and had no way of knowing who some of his potential victims were.

 

[mommylicious]

New details released on deadly Oxford HS shooting | wzzm13.com

"Throne said Crumbley was immediately removed from the classroom and brought to the counselor's office again. He told school authorities that the drawing was part of a video game he was designing and that he planned to pursue video game design as a career.

His parents were called in to school. Throne said it was difficult to reach them. They waited an hour and a half with Crumbley, analyzing and observing his behavior.

Crumbley said he was worried about missing assignments while waiting. Staff retrieved his science homework, which he worked on in the office.

Throne said school officials believed Crumbley did not pose any threat to others and that his demeanor "appeared calm."

When both of his parents arrived, counselors asked Crumbley questions surrounding the potential to harm himself or others. Counselors concluded he did not pose a threat.

Throne says his parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, did not inform the school that their son had access to a firearm or that he had one with him.

The school told the Crumbleys they had 48 hours to seek counseling for their son or the school would contact Child Protective Services."

 

[MadisonS]

Well it's hella cold here now and a boat on the water would stand out significantly even if they could have gotten one.

Do you know if the river freezes over in winter? I'm in Wisconsin and people drive cars across lakes -yes, lakes! in the winter.

 

[Cool Cats]

Do you know if the river freezes over in winter? I'm in Wisconsin and people drive cars across lakes -yes, lakes! in the winter.

It does freeze but the US Coast Guard ice cutters routinely run the Detroit River to break up the ice and keep shipping lanes open.

 

[otto]

There is enough blame to go around: the shooter of course, his parents and the school- I think eventually they will have to do a minute to minute breakdown and time line over a number of days leading up to and including the day of the shooting. There will also have to be a breakdown of who specifically (teachers, principal, counselors) dropped the ball. We may not learn all of this for a while, maybe not until the trial, if there is one. There will also be a digital trail of texts, emails, etc.

Quite true. However, charging the parents because they did not prevent a shooting that they were very likely unaware of makes no sense. The prosecutor states that owning a gun means securing and locking it, but Michigan has no law regarding storage of guns in private homes.

The prosecutor's statements seem to contradict law.

"Investigators said Ethan Crumbley, 15, emerged from a bathroom with a gun and started shooting students in the hallway.

The teen is charged as an adult with murder, terrorism and other crimes.

Under Michigan law, the involuntary manslaughter charge filed against the parents in such cases can be pursued if authorities believe someone contributed to a situation where there was a high chance of harm or death.

Parents in the U.S. are rarely charged in school shootings involving their children, even as most minors get guns from a parent or relative's house, according to experts."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

"Owning a gun means securing it properly and locking it and keeping the ammunition separate," [prosecutor Karen McDonald] said.
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-charges-1.6269907

"Michigan has no law covering the storage of weapons in private homes, and only limited ability to charge a gun owner if a carelessly stored"
​

The Detroit News

 

[otto]

New details released on deadly Oxford HS shooting | wzzm13.com

"Throne said Crumbley was immediately removed from the classroom and brought to the counselor's office again. He told school authorities that the drawing was part of a video game he was designing and that he planned to pursue video game design as a career.

His parents were called in to school. Throne said it was difficult to reach them. They waited an hour and a half with Crumbley, analyzing and observing his behavior.

Crumbley said he was worried about missing assignments while waiting. Staff retrieved his science homework, which he worked on in the office.

Throne said school officials believed Crumbley did not pose any threat to others and that his demeanor "appeared calm."

When both of his parents arrived, counselors asked Crumbley questions surrounding the potential to harm himself or others. Counselors concluded he did not pose a threat.

Throne says his parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, did not inform the school that their son had access to a firearm or that he had one with him.

The school told the Crumbleys they had 48 hours to seek counseling for their son or the school would contact Child Protective Services."

That's interesting! Children spend more time at school than they do with their parents, yet the school counsellors decided that the child was not a threat to other children. I doubt the parents knew that the child had taken the gun.

 

[Dontknow?]

Oxford High School shooting: Suspected gunman told counselor drawing was video game design

Oxford High School shooting: Suspected gunman told counselor drawing was video game design

 

[kaen]

New details released on deadly Oxford HS shooting | wzzm13.com

"Throne said Crumbley was immediately removed from the classroom and brought to the counselor's office again. He told school authorities that the drawing was part of a video game he was designing and that he planned to pursue video game design as a career.

His parents were called in to school. Throne said it was difficult to reach them. They waited an hour and a half with Crumbley, analyzing and observing his behavior.

Crumbley said he was worried about missing assignments while waiting. Staff retrieved his science homework, which he worked on in the office.

Throne said school officials believed Crumbley did not pose any threat to others and that his demeanor "appeared calm."

When both of his parents arrived, counselors asked Crumbley questions surrounding the potential to harm himself or others. Counselors concluded he did not pose a threat.

Throne says his parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, did not inform the school that their son had access to a firearm or that he had one with him.

The school told the Crumbleys they had 48 hours to seek counseling for their son or the school would contact Child Protective Services."

Did anyone interview the parents separately to determine if there was indeed a video game? Did anyone ask the parents if there are weapons in the home? Threat assessments can be easy for some kids to fake so they are not always reliable. Does this school system have/use a formalized assessment? Does the assessment ask if the student has any weapons at home or at school? I have a suspicion that this was not something that they really took care and time to suss out. They knew enough to give them 48 hours.... but why the 48 before they called CPS? If he needed to be seen, why wait for the 48?

 

[Cool Cats]

That's interesting! Children spend more time at school than they do with their parents, yet the school counsellors decided that the child was not a threat to other children. I doubt the parents knew that the child had taken the gun.

Until they went home and that afternoon and found it missing. The parents should have brought up the subject of the gun, the counselor should have asked about gun access.

Just seems like the gun topic was never even thought of despite a drawing of people being killed with a bullet and the kid researching ammunition sales.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Quite true. However, charging the parents because they did not prevent a shooting that they were very likely unaware of makes no sense. The prosecutor states that owning a gun means securing and locking it, but Michigan has no law regarding storage of guns in private homes.

The prosecutor's statements seem to contradict law.

"Investigators said Ethan Crumbley, 15, emerged from a bathroom with a gun and started shooting students in the hallway.

The teen is charged as an adult with murder, terrorism and other crimes.

Under Michigan law, the involuntary manslaughter charge filed against the parents in such cases can be pursued if authorities believe someone contributed to a situation where there was a high chance of harm or death.

Parents in the U.S. are rarely charged in school shootings involving their children, even as most minors get guns from a parent or relative's house, according to experts."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

"Owning a gun means securing it properly and locking it and keeping the ammunition separate," [prosecutor Karen McDonald] said.
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-charges-1.6269907

"Michigan has no law covering the storage of weapons in private homes, and only limited ability to charge a gun owner if a carelessly stored"
​

The Detroit News

I think it’s the careless handling of the gun. At the arraignment the prosecutor said she had over 100 hours of electronic communications, they may have information that leads them to think they should have known to secure the gun and that Ethan was not stable enough to have access to it. I think it’s also worthy to note that when his parents heard of the shooting they went to their house to see if the gun was missing, the dad called 911 to tell them he thought his son was the shooter. Why did they think their son was the shooter? Whether they had direct knowledge that this was going to happen, I don’t think they did , but I believe their actions after the shooting show that they did have concerns. If I heard there was a shooting at my child’s school it would never enter my mind that one of my children could be the shooter.

 

[Marysmith]

New details released on deadly Oxford HS shooting | wzzm13.com

"Throne said Crumbley was immediately removed from the classroom and brought to the counselor's office again. He told school authorities that the drawing was part of a video game he was designing and that he planned to pursue video game design as a career.

His parents were called in to school. Throne said it was difficult to reach them. They waited an hour and a half with Crumbley, analyzing and observing his behavior.

Crumbley said he was worried about missing assignments while waiting. Staff retrieved his science homework, which he worked on in the office.

Throne said school officials believed Crumbley did not pose any threat to others and that his demeanor "appeared calm."

When both of his parents arrived, counselors asked Crumbley questions surrounding the potential to harm himself or others. Counselors concluded he did not pose a threat.

Throne says his parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, did not inform the school that their son had access to a firearm or that he had one with him.

The school told the Crumbleys they had 48 hours to seek counseling for their son or the school would contact Child Protective Services."

Wow. IMO this all seems reasonable… they all knew what to say.
This is such a horrible tragedy.

 

[borndem]

According to the video in the post following yours, the ex who couldn’t get Crumbley to pay $67 a week in child support says he bought Ethan any thing he wanted.
She says he makes six figures, so at least $100,000 a year is doing ok, if not affluent. She would know from court ordered income statements for child support.

Sounds like he's just a regular run-of-the-mill jerk.
I do wonder how things were for Ethan at home. What made Ethan do what he did? Did he have friends that had similar thinking? Did he have any friends? In no way am I defending him, but it could be helpful to others -- teachers, counselors, and parents -- if we knew a bit about him.

And why, dear goodness why, did his parents not take him home when the teachers (or whoever it was) recommended that they do so?
And why did the parents hit the road as they did? Were they really leaving Ethan behind for good?

I do hope some answers come out in all this -- it might help the next troubled child or a pair of mystified and worried parents -- I do not think his parents were mystified or worried about Ethan in the least -- but that's JMO.