Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[MistyWaters]

bbm

Not linking, but I remember early in the search for Kyron Horman, LE asked for cooperation in searching. LE asked to enter & cross properties, and the wording wasn't that all criminal activity would be ignored, but that LE would only be looking for information relating to Kyron's disappearance.

The interpretation on that thread was this: people in that area tend to grown their own marijuana which is/was not legal. Essentially LE was saying "please, please let us check your sheds and yards, we will ignore your homegrow, we are looking for a missing child and evidence of kidnappers only."

Did LE send messages like this after these girls were murdered?

jmho ymmv lrr

Isn’t a search warrant supported by probable cause required to authorize LE to “look around” on someone’s private property, even if following up on a tip regarding a murder investigation? That’s my understanding, as it involves legally obtaining potential courtroom evidence. So I think a situation of LE investigating double homicides is probably quite different from searches for a missing person.

A person offering a tip for an unsolved crime can go to the police station to do so, or phone or email it in. I think many WS members have offered tips so my question - has LE came to your house asking to look around? Answer - Probably not.

 

[Tiff23fr]

While we’re solely focused on LE solving the murders of Abby and Libby, I admit I’m somewhat shocked at insinuations LE should’ve announced they would totally ignore other criminality because it might discourage tips. In the example of repeat DUI offenders, I really doubt families of any future victims who were killed during drunk driving incidents would agree. While apprehending this killer is significant, that’s not reason enough for other law breakers to be given a free pass.

What would be an example of someone so fearful of arrest not submitting a tip, other than having an outstanding arrest warrant? Nothing to say inmates can’t tip information, happens all the time and often it results in a lighter sentence. I think it’s highly unlikely unlikely anyone would be so stupid to invite LE over to talk about it while cooking up meth in the kitchen or drive drunk to the police station.

IMO the only good thing about an unsolved crime is it leads to arrests not associated to the case because it gives people a good reason to tip about unrelated situations they might’ve otherwise kept quiet about. KAK may be a perfect example. JMO

Below is one example of how it was worded in the Pike County Ohio Murders:

Some are worried about retaliation by the killers. Others fear incriminating themselves over their own criminal activity — likely involving drugs — unrelated to the slayings, investigators said during a news conference to update the public on the investigation.

Witnesses who come forward will be treated fairly, said Attorney General Mike DeWine, whose office is leading the investigation. The focus is on the homicide, not those individuals' crimes, he said.

Investigators say fear of killers holding back witnesses in slaying of 8 Ohio family members

 

[Spartygirl]

I got it from GH YT (I think i can mention that channel - If not MODS please delete post channel- She/They took a photo on the same day on the bridge not long after A&L were there which GH used when he was calculating the time line and flow of the crime in conjunction with Libby's photos. I must admit I havent seen it on MSM myself. But it has been spoken about quite a lot in the past. They are also said to have passed FSG on their way to the bridge. I have also been following for nearly 5 years. and the whole case baffles me.

Happy New Year
SIJ

Ahhh--OK-- they were NOT right behind Libby and Abby

She did take photos that day, not posted is MSM and she was NOT the witness who passed BG at FB, IIRC.
JMO

Just trying to keep things straight.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

So this is thread #141 for Libby and Abby. Is this the longest one on Websleuths, except maybe for Jon Benet Ramsey?
I hope #141 is the thread where we put “Arrested” up in the heading.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

The billboards, what was the reasoning for them? Did LE ever explain why they did this?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Also BTK

BTK was somewhat different in that no database of familial DNA was used in order to make a family tree. They already had their POI and obtained a DNA sample willing offered by his daughter. However, they had him dead to rights before that. It was just additional confirmation.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I watched that video. He brings up some interesting points.

In a recent podcast episode on True Crime Garage, Joseph Scott Morgan also expresses frustration/bewilderment over basic information not being released to the public. Specifically, he mentions manner of death and, IIRC, additional audio. He says, it's understandable to hold onto that information for a couple to a few days. However, after that you release it to the public to get their help.

 

[MistyWaters]

Below is one example of how it was worded in the Pike County Ohio Murders:

Some are worried about retaliation by the killers. Others fear incriminating themselves over their own criminal activity — likely involving drugs — unrelated to the slayings, investigators said during a news conference to update the public on the investigation.

Witnesses who come forward will be treated fairly, said Attorney General Mike DeWine, whose office is leading the investigation. The focus is on the homicide, not those individuals' crimes, he said.

Investigators say fear of killers holding back witnesses in slaying of 8 Ohio family members

From your link -
“One of the victims, Christopher Rhoden Sr., operated a commercial marijuana growing operation on his property "with the purpose of distributing the marijuana," according to DeWine's office.”

I agree, it makes for a difficult task by LE to get witnesses to come forward if they were involved in an illegal activity with one of the victims. But here we’re talking two innocent teens out for an afternoon walk on a trail, absolutely no known legal infractions except for that of the suspect. For that reason LE have said in the past they’re aware fear may prevent someone from offering a tip and they’d offer their protection.

 

[sandy_80]

just saw two arguing ..one is sure BG is obese , the other sure BG is athletic..i don't know why he should be one or the other.. he is neither ..just an average look to me with some baggy clothes for a purpose

 

[sandy_80]

From your link -
“One of the victims, Christopher Rhoden Sr., operated a commercial marijuana growing operation on his property "with the purpose of distributing the marijuana," according to DeWine's office.”

I agree, it makes for a difficult task by LE to get witnesses to come forward if they were involved in an illegal activity with one of the victims. But here we’re talking two innocent teens out for an afternoon walk on a trail, absolutely no known legal infractions except for that of the suspect. For that reason LE have said in the past they’re aware fear may prevent someone from offering a tip and they’d offer their protection.

from the way LE and the public treated the witnesses so far..I am certain no one will be tempted ever to come forward unless its money motivated

 

[Boxer]

The billboards, what was the reasoning for them? Did LE ever explain why they did this?

MOO billboards were partly from belated police energy, because the ISP declined to issue an Amber Alert at the time requested on 2/13 by the Sheriff.
With no leads a transient, truck driver, or someone on the road all good ideas.

 

[squareandrabbet]

just saw two arguing ..one is sure BG is obese , the other sure BG is athletic..i don't know why he should be one or the other.. he is neither ..just an average look to me with some baggy clothes for a purpose

Agreed, what about wrestlers? They can be either, or both.

 

[Boxer]

MOO

Quite the contrary, as I remember it. (I don’t know the exact wording.)

I was absolutely appalled, and thought that they showed a great lack of seriousness of purpose. I’d always assumed that LE would take the sort of attitude that you describe in the Kyron Horman case.

Obviously, they DID take these murders extremely seriously, but WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!

MOO

P.S. I’m sternly against marijuana use, too, so it’s not as though I’m saying this because it’s one of my ‘awww, not really a crime,’ beliefs.

Once delving into the Delphi area MOO the drug use is appalling.
Agree, the police stuck themselves on island above where needed information might be.

 

[AC4RD]

MOO billboards were partly from belated police energy, because the ISP declined to issue an Amber Alert at the time requested on 2/13 by the Sheriff.
With no leads a transient, truck driver, or someone on the road all good ideas.

(fumblefingers EBM)
One of the police sources said--IIRC from a press conference but I haven't heard it in a long time--that an Amber Alert was reserved for children taken by a known or suspected person, not just a general "young person missing" situation. To me, that sounds a lot like bureaucratic whitewash for "we really probably should have done that but 'my bad.'" Just MHO on that interpretation.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

from the way LE and the public treated the witnesses so far..I am certain no one will be tempted ever to come forward unless its money motivated

I agree. In my opinion, one of LE biggest mistakes early on was they insisted on arresting people they were interviewing for unrelated charges.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. In my opinion, one of LE biggest mistakes early on was they insisted on arresting people they were interviewing for unrelated charges.

What if people tip a suspect with knowledge of illegal activity that caused them to be suspicious of somebody (ie KAK and catfishing). Should LE just have ignored it?

 

[Tiff23fr]

From your link -
“One of the victims, Christopher Rhoden Sr., operated a commercial marijuana growing operation on his property "with the purpose of distributing the marijuana," according to DeWine's office.”

I agree, it makes for a difficult task by LE to get witnesses to come forward if they were involved in an illegal activity with one of the victims. But here we’re talking two innocent teens out for an afternoon walk on a trail, absolutely no known legal infractions except for that of the suspect. For that reason LE have said in the past they’re aware fear may prevent someone from offering a tip and they’d offer their protection.

I agree the victims are two innocent teens. I feel if the lens is flipped to the perpetrator of the crime, that could be where illegal activity exists. It is unknown to us at this time if the perp was into any illegal activities such as CSAM, drugs, etc. If for example someone became aware of something that could be a tip based on a conversation while exchanging illegal materials or products, that could be where the individual may have concerns in coming forward.

I hope that makes sense. I absolutely see where you are coming from and just wanted to offer an example of what can hold witnesses back. If it was something such as CSAM and the individual is a married individual with a family, he would need to weigh his conscience between what is right in coming forward and the potential impacts to his marriage and family. From the outside looking in, we can see the right answer. It can be much harder to see if you are the one whose life can be significantly altered.

ETA: I am not downing LE’s approach. I am offering a general perspective.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

What if people tip a suspect with knowledge of illegal activity that caused them to be suspicious of somebody (ie KAK and catfishing). Should LE just have ignored it?

That, to me, sounds like it could be relevant to the murders so I certainly hope they wouldn’t ignore it.
I’m talking unpaid parking tickets and minor drug charges and the like.
I remember LE arrested some guy for murdering his uncle or someone when the guy offered it up in an interview. That was definitely the right thing to do in that circumstance.

 

[AC4RD]

... ...
Since Bridge Guy didn't want to alarm the girls he was walking much slower than he could have been approaching the end. He wasn't even thinking much about bridge conditions, given everything else he was contemplating. Since the second to last platform the footing has been fine anyway. His mind is occupied and he didn't notice the rare problematic plank until nearly on top of it. That caused him to do the last second crossover step from right to left.

BBM; we've often discussed the fact that BG made Libby uncomfortable enough to grab some video of him. She was uncomfortable, but not enough so to call 911 or scream for help. Your idea, that BG was being casual and trying to keep from scaring the girls into action, makes perfect sense, especially knowing that the last part of the bridge was in such good shape.

JMHO but I can't help thinking that those girls might still be with us if one of the girls had a "scream alarm," the things you can keep in a pocket, that make a loud siren whooping sound if you press a button. We bought a couple of cases of them at work 20 years ago when there was some street crime near our workplace, and I thought they were a dumb idea at the time. This is NOT the first time I've been entirely wrong about something. Hitting an alarm like that might have been embarrassing ("Yes, I'm scared of you and that's why I triggered an alarm!") but that's better than what happened. :-(

 

[AC4RD]

just saw two arguing ..one is sure BG is obese , the other sure BG is athletic..i don't know why he should be one or the other.. he is neither ..just an average look to me with some baggy clothes for a purpose

Yeah, that was probably me, sorry--I thought it was a significant point. At the risk of boring people (and irritating the other user with whom I had the discussion), my basic ideas (MHO!) are: BG at 5'8" to 5'10" and maybe 200 pounds looks like a fairly accurate estimate, just to my own eye. And I agree completely that he had "things" under his jacket, things he planned to use in a crime that day. In the photos, IMO, BG looks like he's big in the trunk and somewhat slim in the legs.

I don't think KAK is likely to be BG; I think if the police had even a hint of that, they'd have arrested him on the CP immediately just to keep him under wraps. But after disagreeing at first, I'm now fairly sure, MHO, that KAK *could* be BG based on his size in the now-famous "Hoover Dam" photo (it's several pages back in the discussion if you haven't seen it.) The kid with his dad at the Dam in that photo is right around the size estimates, *IMO* and this is just MOO, of 5'8" to 5'10" and 180-200 pounds.

One user said KAK was "morbidly obese" and I agree he may be at the 2020 booking photo. (I think the kid has all the signs of high-dose prednisone use in that booking photo, JMHO but I've seen many dozens of patients who looked like that because of prednisone.) In the Hoover Dam photo, doing the calcs for 5'8" and 200 pounds equals a BMI of 30.4; the lower limit for "obese" is 30. If he were 5'10" and 200 pounds, BMI would be 27.8 and he'd be "overweight" by federal standards, not obese.

So I'm sorry to bore you with this, Sandy, but I think it's somewhat important. All of this looks to my eye, MOOooo, that KAK certainly could be BG, based on the one known photo (the Hoover Dam one with his dad) closest to February 2017. I still don't think it is likely he IS BG, just because the police obviously didn't suspect him of it and I'm sure they took a strong look at that possibility. But IMO he certainly COULD be. Just MHO. And again JMHO, it's worth considering. Thanks! --ken