Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[AC4RD]

... How come we are so sure that there were just two of them on the trails and MHB, that no friend joined them, after all? All recreations show just two, but why is it implausible that they met with a friend, or someone?

All photos that are made are of the bridge, Abby and BG, but how do we know that no one was standing behind Libby when she was taking the photos/videos? Imagine Libby’s feeling if someone (“a friend”) was standing behind her, Abby has almost crossed the bridge, and that oddball BG was somewhere in the middle. That explains why Libby didn’t yell, nor called 911. Among three people, she’d feel protected.
[...]
This person is silent now because of fear (what was done to the girls), and also, shame since they abandoned their friends.

Is it plausible?

Plausible? I say "yes." Unlikely, but certainly possible IMO. In your hypothetical situation, the third girl runs home after escaping? And then two possibilities: 1.) She doesn 't tell anybody, and hasn't told anybody to this day. Or 2.) She tells parents, police get a sketch artist to work with her, etc. Police and the family keep a very tight hold on the "third girl" news both to protect the girl and to preserve her eventual testimony at a trial. Other possibilities certainly exist, yes?

Plausible, yes. Likely, no. Interesting subject for thought and discussion: yes. Thanks!

 

[Barbieshell]

I have always felt it looked as though BG had a concealed weapon in the jacket.

Yeah me too, but I had no idea you could buy jackets that would conceal so much.

 

[AC4RD]

...
however the new dude isn't BG cause personally ..
BG isn't young
BG isn't tech savvy (kinda of related to first point )..or he would have destroyed phones first ( I know there are always arguments against this and that ) ..
finally, online predators get their kick out of what they are doing...not every sexual predator is a candidate for a psychopath killer which who I think BG is ..this case feels like it's more complicated than a sex crime gone wrong

Sandy, I agree--it's very thin, but when I look at the BG video clip, when I hear the "Guys ..." audio, I'm thinking BG is 35-ish or older. I have *no* evidence to support that, and I can't specify why I think that he's mid-thirties or older. But it still seems right to me.

I don't know anything about the psychopathology of those people: can someone be a sexual predator AND a psycho killer at the same time? I don't know how brain-doctors do their stuff and I can only categorize BG from my own moral/ethical standpoint: he's a loathsome reptile. :-( KAK is a contemptible slug, with his kiddie *advertiser censored*, but (IMO) what I saw on his FB page pointed IMO to his being ineffectual, a wanna-be, a loser who could only dream of being successful--but not (still IMOO) vicious enough to attack two liittle girls just starting to turn into teenagers. :-(

Being attracted to children is bizarre enough; I can't even begin to guess what makes someone want to kill them. :-(
======================
PS: if any of our regulars are editors of the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that the psych students all carry around, I can work up functional definitions of "contemptible slug" and "loathsome reptile" for the next edition, just say the word.

 

[Wokesleuth]

Yeah me too, but I had no idea you could buy jackets that would conceal so much.

yeah it is way crazy, it would explain BG's weird gait.
I am familiar with quite a lot of concealment devices from the festival and rave scene and this jacket is wild honestly.

 

[Yemelyan]

I don't know anything about the psychopathology of those people: can someone be a sexual predator AND a psycho killer at the same time?

Being attracted to children is bizarre enough; I can't even begin to guess what makes someone want to kill them. :-(
======================

Respectfully snipped by me to address these points...

This is just my opinion, but yes - many, if not most, serial killers are also sexual predators, and the ones that are serial murderers of child victims are most likely to have a sexual motivation of all. In fact, when the Justice Department studied the people who abduct and murder children, they found that they are more like serial killers than any other type of offender, even if they have only killed one victim. They are more likely to engage in signature behavior at the scene, they are more likely to have a primarily sexual motivation, and they are more likely to bind their victims whether they needed to do so to control them or not (i.e. the bondage was as a sexual behavior, not a part of their M.O. - sometimes they bound their victim after the victim was dead). https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/201253NCJRS.pdf

So, are these "sex crimes gone wrong," where the victim struggled, or recognized the perpetrator, and had to be silenced? Sure, some sexually-motivated murders are due to this self-preservation of the murderer, let's say. But when you look at the serial crimes specifically - a great number of these are in fact sex crimes just as the perpetrator intended them, where the death of the victim was in fact the final object and the sexually arousing event itself. Some of these individuals murder during the sex act because having control over the death of their victim is part of their fantasy (Green River Killer, BTK, Israel Keyes, Michael Bruce Ross, Ted Bundy, Samuel Little are all examples of this type).

I guess what I'm saying is that IMO the "psycho" in your "psycho killer" is related to the fact that a large number of these individuals have somehow, over time, and through various pathways, linked their sexual response to the act of causing pain and death to others. Though I should say that not all of the murderers who are this type actually engage in sexual behavior at the crime scene - or at least not behavior that would be recognized as sexual to the average person. There would likely be, however, trophy taking and all kinds of other signature behavior that expresses the true motivation of the crime. All JMO.

 

[CrimeAway]

@Yemelyan thank you for your always thoughtful, informative posts

 

[Charlot123]

Plausible? I say "yes." Unlikely, but certainly possible IMO. In your hypothetical situation, the third girl runs home after escaping? And then two possibilities: 1.) She doesn 't tell anybody, and hasn't told anybody to this day. Or 2.) She tells parents, police get a sketch artist to work with her, etc. Police and the family keep a very tight hold on the "third girl" news both to protect the girl and to preserve her eventual testimony at a trial. Other possibilities certainly exist, yes?

Plausible, yes. Likely, no. Interesting subject for thought and discussion: yes. Thanks!

It was prompted by your remark about the siren button.

Then I imagined facing “something” and feeling the need to make a video of it, yet not calling 911 (nor video streaming to FB, for example). What would I feel?

1) not that scared, but something “doesn’t belong” to the bridge (in whatever way - the bridge is crossed daily by kids, working adults, LE and meth dealers - so this has to be very specifically out of order). Something or someone is so strange that needs to be videotaped, yet - not scary enough to call 911?

2) the guy approaching me is scary, but someone is standing behind me. This someone can protect. A third girl, or maybe, a boy? Statistically, the chance of being attacked while accompanied by a man is lower.

People were discussing the chance of the girls walking to the bridge to meet someone. How do we know that they didn’t? Could have met - a date, a friend, someone, and walked together. As long as there were no witnesses, it is always a possibility. And yet, I think this person, if he/she indeed existed, has never come forward.

To come forward - for anyone! - means, trust LE implicitly. Basically, trust with one’s life.

 

[hooziewhutz]

Not saying this is thee jacket, but omg look at all the stuff you can fit inside these things!

From the comment section of the Youtube video. Somebody asks the poster (and designer?) something about what I'm guessing is a built-in holster and it's positioning in regards to concerns with "printing". The other question was about sizes and how to order. I wonder if either of the points can help with the theory that you can see a gun in BGs jacket on his ride side, as well as recent KAK and weight discussions. Idk. moo

 

[kyrarose]

As a kid, I was in several situations where I should have called 911, but didn’t. It’s like I never felt “certain” enough to call. As an adult, I can see now that i should have. I think maybe the girls just didn’t call 911 because it’s kind of a scary thing to do as a kid.

 

[MollyDDD]

Sandy, I agree--it's very thin, but when I look at the BG video clip, when I hear the "Guys ..." audio, I'm thinking BG is 35-ish or older. I have *no* evidence to support that, and I can't specify why I think that he's mid-thirties or older. But it still seems right to me.

I don't know anything about the psychopathology of those people: can someone be a sexual predator AND a psycho killer at the same time? I don't know how brain-doctors do their stuff and I can only categorize BG from my own moral/ethical standpoint: he's a loathsome reptile. :-( KAK is a contemptible slug, with his kiddie *advertiser censored*, but (IMO) what I saw on his FB page pointed IMO to his being ineffectual, a wanna-be, a loser who could only dream of being successful--but not (still IMOO) vicious enough to attack two liittle girls just starting to turn into teenagers. :-(

Being attracted to children is bizarre enough; I can't even begin to guess what makes someone want to kill them. :-(
======================
PS: if any of our regulars are editors of the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that the psych students all carry around, I can work up functional definitions of "contemptible slug" and "loathsome reptile" for the next edition, just say the word.

 

[Boxer]

Plausible? I say "yes." Unlikely, but certainly possible IMO. In your hypothetical situation, the third girl runs home after escaping? And then two possibilities: 1.) She doesn 't tell anybody, and hasn't told anybody to this day. Or 2.) She tells parents, police get a sketch artist to work with her, etc. Police and the family keep a very tight hold on the "third girl" news both to protect the girl and to preserve her eventual testimony at a trial. Other possibilities certainly exist, yes?

Plausible, yes. Likely, no. Interesting subject for thought and discussion: yes. Thanks!

In this scenario tbe only people not to know a third person was there is the general public. BG knows, police know.
MOO this witness wpuld have to have complete witness protection.

 

[Boxer]

MOO I think that perhaps the young BG is the Anthony Shots Model.
If the Peru KAK search didn't turn up the Shots profile at the time in 2017, and police later decided that the early witness sketch from a memory of seeing something on Libby's phone was their best lead, they might do what they did, issue a sketch do over.
It seems after the 2019 PC they did trace down who the witness saw on the phone, a model now policeman whose pictures were stolen for catfishing by a CASM criminal in Peru Ind.
So maybe they are getting somewhere.

 

[PezCandy]

As a kid, I was in several situations where I should have called 911, but didn’t. It’s like I never felt “certain” enough to call. As an adult, I can see now that i should have. I think maybe the girls just didn’t call 911 because it’s kind of a scary thing to do as a kid.

Yep! Agree completely with you on this! Been in those “should I call police?” situations myself but it was an overwhelming anxiety of “what if it’s nothing, you’re just paranoid” that would prevent me from calling the cops, that or family history with the police (I grew up in a small town).
i do wonder what prompted LG to start taping, like did he interact with them at the trail that day prior to seeing them on MHB?? Something made the girls feel uncomfortable and I’m starting to get the feeling he was busy following the girls around the trails that day.
So witnesses say they did see BG that day, does anyone have a time frame on the BG sightings from the other ppl in the park and when the snap of Abby was taken? He had to have been lurking around, but no one saw the girls… I’m wondering when ppl did see BG was it before or after the crime had taken place? If it was after I’m curious to know how he was acting. All imo


Mods, please delete this part if not allowed;
I’m also pondering about BG eye color, what did one of the witnesses say? Was it blue eyes or NOT blue eyes? I honestly don’t remember what she said but I do remember that being discussed briefly here awhile back. If they/she was able to say something about eye color I wonder what else they might remember without even knowing it. Moo

 

[PezCandy]

MOO I think that perhaps the young BG is the Anthony Shots Model.
If the Peru KAK search didn't turn up the Shots profile at the time in 2017, and police later decided that the early witness sketch from a memory of seeing something on Libby's phone was their best lead, they might do what they did, issue a sketch do over.
It seems after the 2019 PC they did trace down who the witness saw on the phone, a model now policeman whose pictures were stolen for catfishing by a CASM criminal in Peru Ind.
So maybe they are getting somewhere.

good observation about the sketches, I was thinking about that as well after the latest info, young BG sketch Does kinda look like the catfish picture too. But considering how detailed the old BG is compared to the young BG sketch which isn’t that detailed makes me think that young BG sketch was more quickly thrown together.

was the old BG sketch based off the video or a witness??

 

[LeBlack]

It was prompted by your remark about the siren button.

Then I imagined facing “something” and feeling the need to make a video of it, yet not calling 911 (nor video streaming to FB, for example). What would I feel?

1) not that scared, but something “doesn’t belong” to the bridge (in whatever way - the bridge is crossed daily by kids, working adults, LE and meth dealers - so this has to be very specifically out of order). Something or someone is so strange that needs to be videotaped, yet - not scary enough to call 911?

2) the guy approaching me is scary, but someone is standing behind me. This someone can protect. A third girl, or maybe, a boy? Statistically, the chance of being attacked while accompanied by a man is lower.

People were discussing the chance of the girls walking to the bridge to meet someone. How do we know that they didn’t? Could have met - a date, a friend, someone, and walked together. As long as there were no witnesses, it is always a possibility. And yet, I think this person, if he/she indeed existed, has never come forward.

To come forward - for anyone! - means, trust LE implicitly. Basically, trust with one’s life.

Coming forward would be more difficult if a close family member has been in trouble with the law or is doing something illegal. (even minor things could worry a young teen)

 

[Boxer]

good observation about the sketches, I was thinking about that as well after the latest info, young BG sketch Does kinda look like the catfish picture too. But considering how detailed the old BG is compared to the young BG sketch which isn’t that detailed makes me think that young BG sketch was more quickly thrown together.

was the old BG sketch based off the video or a witness??

I don't know if the public knows. IIRC at the time they said witness.

 

[FromGermany1]

It was prompted by your remark about the siren button.

Then I imagined facing “something” and feeling the need to make a video of it, yet not calling 911 (nor video streaming to FB, for example). What would I feel?

1) not that scared, but something “doesn’t belong” to the bridge (in whatever way - the bridge is crossed daily by kids, working adults, LE and meth dealers - so this has to be very specifically out of order). Something or someone is so strange that needs to be videotaped, yet - not scary enough to call 911?

2) the guy approaching me is scary, but someone is standing behind me. This someone can protect. A third girl, or maybe, a boy? Statistically, the chance of being attacked while accompanied by a man is lower.

People were discussing the chance of the girls walking to the bridge to meet someone. How do we know that they didn’t? Could have met - a date, a friend, someone, and walked together. As long as there were no witnesses, it is always a possibility. And yet, I think this person, if he/she indeed existed, has never come forward.

To come forward - for anyone! - means, trust LE implicitly. Basically, trust with one’s life.

IF there was someone on the bridge with the two girls, it could have been only someone, who didn't have to run for his life because of BG, but who knew him and made common cause with him, IMO. The girls wouldn't have known, their acquaintance knew the approaching "creepy" BG, IMO. Otherwise: how did the acquaintance get away unmolested/unpursued by BG?

 

[Laughing]

From the comment section of the Youtube video. Somebody asks the poster (and designer?) something about what I'm guessing is a built-in holster and it's positioning in regards to concerns with "printing". The other question was about sizes and how to order. I wonder if either of the points can help with the theory that you can see a gun in BGs jacket on his ride side, as well as recent KAK and weight discussions. Idk. moo

Not sure I can be much help.

My son has a ScottEVest jacket. I don't know about a pistol in a pocket, but the iPad pocket and the water bottle pockets work as described -- carrying these items in the assigned pocket really doesn't show.

Google tells me that an "old iPad" weighs 24 ounces. Sturm-Ruger's website shows a 22 pistol weighing 17.5 ounces and 22.5 ounces. (Don't know what any of ours, or my 2011 iPad weighs.) Looks like it is possible to carry a pistol in a similar jacket without distorting the jacket or being obvious to an observer.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[TL4S]

MOO I think that perhaps the young BG is the Anthony Shots Model.
If the Peru KAK search didn't turn up the Shots profile at the time in 2017, and police later decided that the early witness sketch from a memory of seeing something on Libby's phone was their best lead, they might do what they did, issue a sketch do over.
It seems after the 2019 PC they did trace down who the witness saw on the phone, a model now policeman whose pictures were stolen for catfishing by a CASM criminal in Peru Ind.
So maybe they are getting somewhere.

My interpretation of the Peru search affidavit's opening paragraph is that KK was already known to be using the a_shots account, so I'm going to guess LE was aware of the fake photos immediately. They used the IP address associated with the a_shots account in the subpoenas to Comcast to find the Peru address.

If that is the case, then I don't think LE would release a sketch who was likely based on the online photos since that was not who was at the bridge that day. Jmo.

I very well might be reading that affidavit incorrectly, but I have always got the impression that the FBI turned KK over to the ISP because they already knew what he was up to. I think the FBI was already watching a_shots...

DocumentCloud

 

[MistyWaters]

My interpretation of the Peru search affidavit's opening paragraph is that KK was already known to be using the a_shots account, so I'm going to guess LE was aware of the fake photos immediately. They used the IP address associated with the a_shots account in the subpoenas to Comcast to find the Peru address.

If that is the case, then I don't think LE would release a sketch who was likely based on the online photos since that was not who was at the bridge that day. Jmo.

I very well might be reading that affidavit incorrectly, but I have always got the impression that the FBI turned KK over to the ISP because they already knew what he was up to. I think the FBI was already watching a_shots...

DocumentCloud

Yes I got that impression too. Something about the catfishing led the FBI directly to KAK and outcome of the search warrant was proof of what they were looking for IMO.

So as KAK had already admitted to using photos of the model in Feb 2017, in my opinion it would’ve been pointless for LE to release a sketch of the model as a possible suspect in April 2019 as they’d have known he was uninvolved.