PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[Daisy1980]

New Final Argument podcast: Final Argument: The Disappearance of Ray Gricar, District Attorney

Two glaring errors up front.

1. A governor cannot call a grand jury.
2. The PA governor serves as a non-voting member of the PSU Board.

Listening now. Don’t recall him telling PF he would see her later on the phone call…

 

[formerjerseygirl]

I just listened to the podcast.Am looking forward to hearing from those of you who follow this case so diligently. Is the information she revealed a bombshell? Has it changed any ones theories ?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Listening now. Don’t recall him telling PF he would see her later on the phone call…

He didn't.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I just listened to the podcast.Am looking forward to hearing from those of you who follow this case so diligently. Is the information she revealed a bombshell? Has it changed any ones theories ?

A few things that were opposite bombshells. Corbett, then AG, approved a plan to let other DA Offices help out.

She is trying to link in Jake Corman, the State Senator from Centre County. Corman was on the TSM board and is a PSU alum. That does not tie into Gricar.

BTW: I will be unavailable much of this week.

 

[DeeperSecrets]

Hilarious that she uses Castor as a trusted source. A conspiracy minded person might wonder if Knight's podcast itself is a red herring.

 

[Black Diamond]

Well now we can wait 6 months for her next one hour podcast to come out.

Im probably gonna give it a second listen before posting any comments about it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RK corrected the record to note that the governor cannot call a grand jury. The Attorney General of PA could.

Here is a list of the people holding the AG post. Those that served as acting AG's are labeled as (A):

Tom Corbett 1/18/05-1/18/11
William Ryan (A) 1/8/11-5/27/11
Linda Kelly 5/27/11-1/15/13
Kathleen Kane 1/15/13-8/17/16
Bruce Castor (A) 8/17/16-8/31/16
Bruce Beemer 8/31/16-1/17/17
John Shapiro 1/17/17-present

Some were seeking never higher office (Ryan, Kelly, and arguably Beemer), while the rest were political. None of them called a grand jury.

The Centre County DA also could call a grand jury. These were:
Mark Smith (A) 4/05-1/06
Michael Madeira 1/06-1/10
Stacy Parks Miller 1/10/1-18
Bernard Cantorni 1/18-present

Now, because of the circumstances, I give the acting ones a bit of a pass. They may not have wanted to tie the hands of their successors. You have to ask why these others did not do so. You have to ask that in light of the PSP recommending a grand jury, Buehner recommending a grand jury, and me, one of the most public critics, all saying to have a grand jury.

That answer is telling.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I said that the answer is telling, so let me give several reasons why all of these people could act this way regarding a grand jury:

1. They are convinced that RFG's disappearance is voluntary (walkaway or suicide).

The circumstantial evidence, an unknown and untraceable bank account, the computer searches, the possibility of a burner phone, RFG's behavior, the Mel Wiley interest, 2020 Vision, all point to something voluntary. The missing major piece for walkaway is how RFG got out of Lewisburg.

2. They found out some extreme criminal wrongdoing on RFG's part, and they know that it would come out. It would have to be something criminal, not just something embarrassing. It is much more likely to be something with a long statute of limitations.

3. A combination of one and two.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hilarious that she uses Castor as a trusted source. A conspiracy minded person might wonder if Knight's podcast itself is a red herring.

Well, I would not say that in this case.

Castor claimed that he had talked to Smith about basically lending out detectives in 2005 to help with the investigation. Smith said that he did not recall it.

When the Sandusky case broke in 2011, Smith said in the press that did not recall the 1998 incident. When investigated by H. Geoffrey Moulton, for the AG's Office, Smith told investigators that he had told Madeira when the 2009 complaint was made (pp. 39-40). Madeira said that he does not remember that.

I am not convinced that Smith's memory is all that good. I believe Castor when he said that the offer was made.

That said, I see no way to put political pressure on Smith. He could have run for DA in 2005, and won handily; he was the logical choice as RFG's deputy. Likewise, he did not know if whomever would win would retain him in the position, no matter what he did. He did not know for sure who the next DA would be.

That is why I am not seeing political pressure as being a motive not to appoint a grand jury. Appointing one would have gotten the press, the chattering class (of which of I am part), and people like Buehner, off the backs of LE and the elected officials.

The one thing I can see is that they don't want RFG to "look bad." It becomes a legacy protection issue. I am going in the direction that legacy protection may be the reason.

 

[Black Diamond]

After listening to the podcast a second time, here are a few things that struck me.
1. Ms. Knight states that she heard that there was a whisper in someone's ear that if the case left Centre County it would mean "political suicide." She didn't say who said it to who, but made it clear by the context that it was Corbett telling Smith. If she didn't come out and say where she received this information, then she's either using it as suspense, or is not identifying the person to protect him/her. In either case it's a tasteless move by Ms. Knight. Why not just tell us a reason that she isn't stating the source of this information, especially when she makes it a point to say that this podcast is only intended to get justice for Ray.
2. She says that a source tells her the second mile tax returns were in Gricar's case file until 2011 then magically disappeared. Obviously whoever let her borrow the case file and make a copy has to be the source of this information. If her statement is indeed true, then it means the police were investigating a connection between the Second Mile and Ray's disappearance. That leaker would then also know when the tax returns we placed INTO the case file, and if it was before or after Sandusky was arrested. If it was before, then it opens up the door to a connection, but if it was after then it isn't nearly as interesting.

It's hard to trust these comments from Ms. Knight when she doesn't say anything about the source. She could make this stuff more believable by either by stating the source or simply saying that the person wishes not to be identified.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

1. The tax filing is public; I have a copy.

2. Smith was not running for anything in 2005, and has not run for anything since. Being a long term 1st Deputy DA, he could have run in 2005 for DA, after RFG announced his retirement. He didn't.

Telling Smith that something will be political suicide is telling me that, if I keep it up, I won't get the lead in New York City Ballet. (For those who don't know, I am badly disabled and attemoting to ballet dance would likely get me hospitalized.)

 

[Black Diamond]

1. The tax filing is public; I have a copy.

Any idea why it might have been in the Gricar case file?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Any idea why it might have been in the Gricar case file?

None, unless there was a tip off prior to 11/4/11 about the 1998 incident.

Once Ganim published her first story on 3/31/11, there were people that remembered the incident. SS mentioned it to me on 4/1 (and I basically ignored it). Someone at the BPD could have heard about it, and got the public file.

 

[Betty P]

I'm planning to listen to the podcast later, but for now, can someone explain what the 1998 incident was? TIA

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm planning to listen to the podcast later, but for now, can someone explain what the 1998 incident was? TIA

There was a report of Jerry Sandusky shower with two prepubescent boy (at different times) in 1998. RFG declined to prosecute.

When they were investigating Sandusky in late 2000's, they were able to contact one of the boys (now an adult), Victim 6; the other was in the armed forces and out of the country. The AG's office charged on the incident and got three convictions, including a felony, just on that victim. They charged and got convictions on about half a dozen other victims.

You might want to check the Sandusky threads for more information.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm planning to listen to the podcast later, but for now, can someone explain what the 1998 incident was? TIA

If you go to page 18, you will see the account of the 1998 incident. Sandusky Grand Jury Presentment

 

[Betty P]

If you go to page 18, you will see the account of the 1998 incident. Sandusky Grand Jury Presentment

Thank you, J. J. That's helpful. I read a lot on these crimes when the details were made public, but wasn't aware of Ray Gricar back then. To use some tired cliches, the Sandusky investigation is either a red herring or the elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss. I'd always assumed Ray wasn't part of any investigations into Sandusky's early abuse cases.

I'll try to listen to the podcast this evening, if I can stay awake long enough.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you, J. J. That's helpful. I read a lot on these crimes when the details were made public, but wasn't aware of Ray Gricar back then. To use some tired cliches, the Sandusky investigation is either a red herring or the elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss. I'd always assumed Ray wasn't part of any investigations into Sandusky's early abuse cases.

I'll try to listen to the podcast this evening, if I can stay awake long enough.

RFG was involved the 1998 incident, beyond question. He killed the investigation.

That said, I have seen no evidence that the Sandusky case is tied, even tangentially, to RFG's disappearnce.

 

[Betty P]

Timeline of Events | Sandusky Scandal

sites.psu.edu

Ugh. That 1998 case was a key case. It involved the boy's Mom who was vigilant and thorough in pursuing an investigation as well as the social worker assigned to the case who also ended up helping push to bring all these reports of sexual assault to light. That guy was a hero, JMO. I remember this case.

Why, oh, why did Ray Gricar choose not to pursue charges or do more? The social worker was a local guy. He knew the stakes involved, he knew how tough a fight it would be, that it could ruin his career, or cost him his job, but he did it anyway. Why couldn't Ray? I'm sorry, but this bothers me. What the heck, Ray? Did someone lean on him?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Timeline of Events | Sandusky Scandal

sites.psu.edu

Ugh. That 1998 case was a key case. It involved the boy's Mom who was vigilant and thorough in pursuing an investigation as well as the social worker assigned to the case who also ended up helping push to bring all these reports of sexual assault to light. That guy was a hero, JMO. I remember this case.

Why, oh, why did Ray Gricar choose not to pursue charges or do more? The social worker was a local guy. He knew the stakes involved, he knew how tough a fight it would be, that it could ruin his career, or cost him his job, but he did it anyway. Why couldn't Ray? I'm sorry, but this bothers me. What the heck, Ray? Did someone lean on him?

Since Sandusky did things for Centre County C&YS, so it had a conflict of interest. It was a legitimate conflict.

The person the brought in was not local.

From what I've heard, RFG basically said that if Sandusky "received help with the problem," he wouldn't prosecute.