Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Cryptic]

You could point a classic 1911 at someone and click back the hammer as a threat, yes. IMHO you probably don't. It's not how you actually shoot it and you have to assume they won't know you're doing it wrong.

If the click is from a weapon's hammer being drawn back as a warning, it could indicate that the perpetrator is truly familiar with the weapon.

This could well imply an older perpetrator with a longer familiarity with fire arms- and in the case of a semi automatic, historic fire arms.

As you stated, one would not need to pull the hammer back to fire the Browning design. Rather, to get the hammer in that position, I believe one would need to load the pistol, charge it, then pull the trigger while carefully riding the hammer forward. Then, upon seeing the victims, pull the hammer back manually with their thumb.

Its unfortunate that the click sound cannot be traced to that of a pistol's hammer being cocked. If so, it could tell alot about the perpetrator.

A younger perpetrator would be less likely to have that type of weapon. Likewise, a younger perpetrator who had access to Grandpa's pistol would not likely know the quirky hammer features.

 

[TL4S]

According to BMcD, TL told her there is no other spoken words by the killer on L's audio. Elsewhere, it's said the video/audio is 43 seconds and "dth" is at the end of it. If we are to believe that, I'm curious why the video ended right then.

HLN 'Down The Hill' Transcript: Who Killed Abby & Libby? - CrimeLights

BARBARA MACDONALD: They’re telling us the video’s nowhere near as long as a lot of people think it. People online have speculated it is several minutes— 8, 9 minutes long. The Sheriff tells me it’s not anywhere near that long and that there’s nothing else from the suspect on it. He doesn’t say any other words on it.

 

[WildHuncher]

If the click is from a weapon's hammer being drawn back as a warning, it could indicate that the perpetrator is truly familiar with the weapon.

This could well imply an older perpetrator with a longer familiarity with fire arms- and in the case of a semi automatic, historic fire arms.

As you stated, one would not need to pull the hammer back to fire the Browning design. Rather, to get the hammer in that position, I believe one would need to load the pistol, charge it, then pull the trigger while carefully riding the hammer forward. Then, upon seeing the victims, pull the hammer back manually with their thumb.

Its unfortunate that the click sound cannot be traced to that of a pistol's hammer being cocked. If so, it could tell alot about the perpetrator.

A younger perpetrator would be less likely to have that type of weapon. Likewise, a younger perpetrator who had access to Grandpa's pistol would not likely know the quirky hammer features.

Hey! I had a Colt Commander (basically a short-barreled 1911A1) for about 40 years until I got in a bind for cash some years back. (OK, I'm 72. You got me.) When I did get cash again I got a Glock 41. No hammer.

I've actually seen at least one TV show where somebody "threatened" somebody else with a .45 point and a hammer click.

Huh? Did you just fail to chamber a round or did you have that hammer down on a loaded chamber?

The standard carry configurations for such single-action semi-autos are "cocked and locked" (chamber loaded, hammer back, safety ON) and "chamber empty."

Yeah. You'd have to let the hammer off very carefully to even get into that sub-optimal configuration. You don't do that.

 

[HistoryNut]

If it was a situation where a threat was known in advance, I’d get out of the area as fast as I could and/or call 911. That‘s one of the biggest mysteries of this case I think, that Libby took the video but didn’t call 911. The only reason I can think of is because the man wasn’t perceived as a serious threat while he was walking toward them. It’s as if they were just waiting for him to either turn around or pass by so they could walk back across the bridge.

I believe Libby thought something was off when BG came walking across the bridge which is why she video-tapped him. This would have been especially true if she was expecting to see Anthony Shots. When BG made it across the bridge, he probably threatened them with a weapon, and forced them to go down the hill. He had the element of surprise on them and the girls were likely so terrified that they cooperated with him. This would explain why the girls didn't call 911 or put up a fight.

 

[Peppery]

That is why I found it interesting that he reported hearing it from a friend of Anna’s. Wouldn’t he have heard it directly from family members since he had spoken directly to family members? JMO

yes, or wouldn't the family have been asked to confirm the friend's account? Then he could say AW confirmed this account [blah, blah] or the family confirmed this story [blah, blah]. Or they could deny it and then GH would remove it. it would give a ton more credibility to the story for me at least. but so far none of the family has really said anything more than LE and if they know more than the public, they aren't talking (yet).

 

[Cryptic]

Huh? Did you just fail to chamber a round or did you have that hammer down on a loaded chamber?

The standard carry configurations for such single-action semi-autos are "cocked and locked" (chamber loaded, hammer back, safety ON) and "chamber empty."

Yeah. You'd have to let the hammer off very carefully to even get into that sub-optimal configuration. You don't do that.

Yes, I did gently, very gently, lower the hammer down on a loaded chamber. But.... that is the only way that I know to produce a possible cocking 'click' on the 1911.

I think alot of accidents with the pistol involved people used to double action revolvers (carried with hammer forward) and not liking that the .45 was carried with the hammer locked back. They then tried to gently lower the hammer on a loaded chamber by riding the hammer forward with their thumb.

I agree, you just dont do that. But.... people, being people.... .

 

[Peppery]

According to BMcD, TL told her there is no other spoken words by the killer on L's audio. Elsewhere, it's said the video/audio is 43 seconds and "dth" is at the end of it. If we are to believe that, I'm curious why the video ended right then.

HLN 'Down The Hill' Transcript: Who Killed Abby & Libby? - CrimeLights

BARBARA MACDONALD: They’re telling us the video’s nowhere near as long as a lot of people think it. People online have speculated it is several minutes— 8, 9 minutes long. The Sheriff tells me it’s not anywhere near that long and that there’s nothing else from the suspect on it. He doesn’t say any other words on it.

I have long assumed that the girls had been taking silly pics, snapchats and videos of each other as teenagers do and that it's likely Libby was already videoing Abby when she noticed BG coming toward them. I think she may have tried to play it cool, so he didn't suspect they were scared of him and put the phone down at her side or in her pocket and only got audio of him saying g...dth. Otherwise we'd probably have closer and more clear video of BG and possibly even see him saying dth. Libby either intentionally or accidentally pressed a button on the phone in her pocket shortly after dth and that's why the video stopped recording. I think most of the 43 seconds is just typical teenage girl stuff and BG happened to show up behind Abby very briefly. I've thought this since the beginning because I have a daughter their age and its what I think she and her friends would have done. so jmo.

 

[AC4RD]

... Elsewhere, it's said the video/audio is 43 seconds and "dth" is at the end of it. If we are to believe that, I'm curious why the video ended right then.

Just one "maybe possible wild guess" but: Half the time I try to take a photo with my cellphone, I accidentally start recording video. Tiny buttons, old clumsy fingers. And I can't even guess how often I go to put my phone in my pocket and accidentally turn off bluetooth or dial NORAD or switch the display language to Finnish or something.

So I'm thinking it is possible--not saying it's likely--but maybe possible that when BG spoke to them Libby was putting the phone in her pocket and accidentally hit the STOP button. Or possibly even hit STOP deliberately, intending to drop the phone as a clue to where the guy was taking them. Maybe.

 

[JnRyan]

I would that if a click was produced by setting the hammer, the weapon would far more likely be a revolver.

At the end of the day, semi automatic pistols with the olde fashioned hammer design have gotten relatively rare- even counting reproductions of historic designs such as clones of Browning's 1911.

I would almost say that the only people possessing such pistols would be somebody with an interest in historic fire arms either as original brand or reproductions or..... somebody who had access to "Grandpa's old pistol" from the attic.

I would say they are not as commonplace, but not rare. The Sig-Sauer is a common gun and one version was used by the SEAL's until recently. NCIS used Sigs for years and may still. (They went to the .40 cal from the 9mm over a decade ago, so they weren't using the same M11 used by some Navy military.) The Sig P229 is still used by many LE agencies including the Secret Service until just recently. When FN quit making the P-35 Browning Hi-Power, Springfield Armory started the upgraded version, SA-35. Now 2 other companies are coming out with a P-35 version. If you want one of those you'd better be at the gun store when they get a shipment because they being snapped up in less than a week. And these aren't grandpa's buying them up. Then we have the Beretta M92.

 

[AC4RD]

Libby either intentionally or accidentally pressed a button on the phone in her pocket shortly after dth and that's why the video stopped recording. ... so jmo.

... and my own guess. My message and yours both say "a moment ago"--we were probably offering the same thoughts (more or less) at the same time.

 

[Peppery]

All this gun talk is interesting but the chances of A&L knowing ANY of this is zero, imo. If the GH story about AW account is true, I highly doubt she knew anything about guns/cocking sounds/any of this discussion either. Most likely the girls saw "a gun" and knew nothing more than that it was a gun and complied. If a cocking sound can be heard on the video, it would take highly skilled pros to determine that. There was so much extra noise that before it was cleaned up I bet it was impossible to understand. imo

 

[WildHuncher]

FWIW I can't hear a click on the audio. But I'm going deaf.

 

[Peppery]

FWIW I can't hear a click on the audio. But I'm going deaf.

If there is a click in the original video, I bet it's been edited out in the publicly released version. IIRC, AW and other family may have heard the full 43 second video, possibly unedited. We have no confirmation of any of these possibilities though. jmo

 

[MichMan015]

Just assuming - if A&L had something to do with the AS acct and was expecting to meet up, would not he also have expected the girls to have cell phones? I think he would have guessed they both had phones even though only Libbey had a phone. Yet nothing says he asked, looked or ever had Libby’s phone.

 

[TL4S]

Just one "maybe possible wild guess" but: Half the time I try to take a photo with my cellphone, I accidentally start recording video. Tiny buttons, old clumsy fingers. And I can't even guess how often I go to put my phone in my pocket and accidentally turn off bluetooth or dial NORAD or switch the display language to Finnish or something.

So I'm thinking it is possible--not saying it's likely--but maybe possible that when BG spoke to them Libby was putting the phone in her pocket and accidentally hit the STOP button. Or possibly even hit STOP deliberately, intending to drop the phone as a clue to where the guy was taking them. Maybe.

My "maybe possible wild guess" is: Perhaps the killer knocked the phone out of her hand, or she otherwise dropped it somewhere around the end of the bridge right after "dth."

Chapter 2: The Day Delphi Changed - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders (podcast)

KR: The crime scene originally started where they found the bodies. Then after we found the phone, we realized it started at the bridge so we had to back up and bring that bridge into the crime scene.

I know it's been said that the phone was found in the general area of the girls' bodies, but could LE's definition include within the entire crime scene? Did they find the phone, find the video, and then understand the end of the bridge is where the encounter happened? Or did they find the phone near the end of the bridge and that's why they knew the encounter first happened there, later supported by the video? I'm probably making this too complicated.

I know searchers, including Kelsie, had looked around that area a lot, so maybe they would have seen the phone...IDK. It could have also fell "down the hill." Yeah, I'm probably making it too complicate.

 

[Cryptic]

He had the element of surprise on them and the girls were likely so terrified that they cooperated with him. This would explain why the girls didn't call 911 or put up a fight.

Well said.

As a side note, the military uses a term called "Violence of Action" to describe seizing the initiative via surprise or audacity, then quickly overwhelming an enemy before they can mount a defense.

I think human predators operate in the same way. BG seems to radiate authority as he strides across the bridge. He in mentally capable of horrific violence, has a weapon, and is physically more powerful than the poor girls.

That combination of surprise, forceful personality, mentally prepared to use violence, possession of a weapon and physical advantage would be very difficult for any regular person unacostumed to rapidly developing predatory violence to even begin to mount a defense.

For better or for worse, most people cant go from strolling with a friend to up close and personal, say "Maim- or be maimed" type violence at the drop of a hat.

The only people that I have seen capable of doing that were people with the right mindset (usually pretty aggressive themselves) and who physically trained long and hard at combat sports. Or..... some other predators that I saw reacting defensively while doing contract work in a prison.

 

[ArmchairDefective]

Two acquaintances positively identified him as being the person in the photos and then Paragraph 30 says it all- A violent person created an alibi before a crime was known, and whose cell phone pinged outside his house in the vicinity of the location of crime victim's both during the time the crime likely occurred AND then again after the crime occurred that night. It's almost a certainty RL is the killer. This is the same pattern of evidence as we have in the Morphew case against BM.

I agree. According to this article, more than a dozen people thought "Bridge Guy" was Ron Logan. That combined with the cell phone pings is pretty damning, but I can't think of any possible explanation for creating an alibi before the crime was public knowledge that's logical conclusion is not "this is the murderer."

 

[MistyWaters]

According to BMcD, TL told her there is no other spoken words by the killer on L's audio. Elsewhere, it's said the video/audio is 43 seconds and "dth" is at the end of it. If we are to believe that, I'm curious why the video ended right then.

HLN 'Down The Hill' Transcript: Who Killed Abby & Libby? - CrimeLights

BARBARA MACDONALD: They’re telling us the video’s nowhere near as long as a lot of people think it. People online have speculated it is several minutes— 8, 9 minutes long. The Sheriff tells me it’s not anywhere near that long and that there’s nothing else from the suspect on it. He doesn’t say any other words on it.

interesting how BM becomes the messenger as I can see why LE might want the perp to hope very little was recorded, maybe only four words. Comparing that to only recently has the possibility of the murders connected to catfishing came into the realm, prior to being widely refuted. JMO

 

[NeverPersonal]

Hi. I have been following the case from the start as I lived relatively close at the time. I absolutely don't think Ron Logan did this. It's almost humorous of that FBI agent to suggest that a 77 year old man could be capable of single-handedly killing two girls and then bringing them to a secondary location, staging a scene, and getting away from the scene without anyone seeing him. Ron did lie to the police and seemed sketchy in that light but I think he was trying to avoid getting in trouble with his probation for drinking that day, etc, if I remember correctly.

I wanted to say I am confused regarding the motives of this podcast. HOW is this podcast getting these "leaked" documents? Something is fishy, to me.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. According to this article, more than a dozen people thought "Bridge Guy" was Ron Logan. That combined with the cell phone pings is pretty damning, but I can't think of any possible explanation for creating an alibi before the crime was public knowledge that's logical conclusion is not "this is the murderer."

Whatever the explanation was, it must’ve satisfied LE. Maybe he was drove somewhere else in the afternoon and wanted to cover that timeframe as well? Of note, he was charged with probation violations but nothing at all related to lying to police.