Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[TL4S]

For a long time there has been discussion of whether there was more to the audio than "guys... down the hill." I feel certain that last year, LE stated in an interview (was it HLN, Comet, or elsewhere?) that those were the only four words captured of the killer. The girls voices, as we know, were removed for public release. Can anyone remember the source?

 

[dotr]

Possible re post of very good HLN link with assorted info and videos.

HLN | "DOWN THE HILL: THE DELPHI MURDERS" PODCAST

HLN's True Crime Investigative Podcast, "Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders," goes in-depth into the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. DOWNTHEHILLPODCAST

www.downthehillpodcast.com

''Watch an all-new "Down The Hill" documentary EXTRA

True Crime Live anchor Mike Galanos leads an engaging discussion based off of your questions about the investigation with documentary hosts Barbara MacDonald and Andrew Iden and veteran criminologist Casey Jordan.
''Watch an all-new "Down The Hill" documentary EXTRA''

Also, starting approx @44:00

 

[Schatz]

We’re any of the POIs for this case ever known to use sites such as Backpage for hookups? Just curious.

 

[Curiousobserver]

So the fact this case isn’t solved leads me to believe they do not have DNA of the perp on file. They have KKs dna right? But what about dad’s? Does he have his dna in the system? Even if he didn’t couldn’t they not match it to be related to his son KK. All this to say, I’m really baffled as to why KK or TK not charged. It seems they must be involved. But if they were, surely by now dna would confirm this and charges made??? What am I missing?

If LE has/had DNA from the perp they almost certainly followed these guys around and got a stealth sample at some point. The fact they have not been arrested but are still apparently under investigation tells you that LE likely does not have a full DNA profile to compare to.

Without DNA all they have is another person with a potential motive (sexual) and possible contact with the girls through this social media link. A potential motive and possible contact is not a good case to bring to trial. Unfortunately the "motive" is incredibly common and there are likely dozens if not hundreds of people within 25 miles of the crime scene that fit that bill.

If this case is ever solved it will be (MOO) someone involved makes a deathbed confession or gives information to "get of jail free" for some other crime.

 

[Betty P]

It seems like this case is just full of coincidences at every turn, yet I've not read a single thing that convinces me any of the names that have been brought up as potential POIs are guilty of anything.
TK is the only one who has really made me wonder, but I have to consider whether LE are trying to get KK to rat out TK not because of any real evidence against him, but rather they have no real evidence against anyone and the A_S account is the only solid lead they have. Plus his history is pretty awful, with both women and children. I also think it's worth noting KK's LE interview transcript was prior to KK having a public defender. He had a PD for the HLN interview. I know his PD is only for the CSAM charges, but surely there would be some overlap since a victim of his catfishing also happened to be murdered after a recent conversation with an account tied to KK.

I guess they're waiting for the one who is the killer to come in and confess. /s They have quite a bit of other evidence, it sounds like, in addition to the DNA. This has been a frustrating case.

ETA: Listening to Tricia's interview above about the Delphi murders, there's mention again of how Delphi LE did such a thorough job of not releasing any information about the case, aside from the video snippet, audio and sketch. It makes me wonder (not for the first time) whether smallish police departments not accustomed to murder investigations with national news coverage sometimes get so bogged down worrying about keeping info under wraps that they can't maintain focus on the investigation itself.

JMO, it could be that or a combination of info control and "it must be a crazy drug addled outsider, no one from XYZ county/town would do this". Add in the desire to control access by federal agencies while navigating a steep learning curve and some bad luck. It's like small town/county LE needing to become PhD level investigators overnight.

 

[Ozoner]

During an interview with FOX News senior correspondent Laura Ingle on Monday night, Liberty “Libby” German’s grandmother Becky Patty said police mentioned finding DNA evidence.

“Police have said there was DNA. They have made the comment that there was DNA,” Patty told Ingle.

Snipped.

I view that quote as deliberate misinformation by LE.

They have never said that they have the perpetrator's DNA, and it's been obvious for a long time now that they don't, in my opinion.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Snipped.

I view that quote as deliberate misinformation by LE.

They have never said that they have the perpetrator's DNA, and it's been obvious for a long time now that they don't, in my opinion.

They have said since 2017 that they have DNA, but they have not said it was the perp‘s.

 

[monkeyboy13]

Snipped.

I view that quote as deliberate misinformation by LE.

They have never said that they have the perpetrator's DNA, and it's been obvious for a long time now that they don't, in my opinion.

How would they know?

DNA does not distinguish itself.

 

[AC4RD]

Some family members were allowed to listen to the full audio LE have

Yes, we were told that. But Peppery's point, and i agree, and others also agree, that GH *says* he talks to someone (we don't hear her) who *says* she knows AW, and he *says* that this person told him, that Mystery Person *says* AW told him the following. That's a whole lot of "no attribution" to me.

<modsnip: Off topic; GH is not the subject of this thread>

BTW, rather than agree separately, I'm 100% in agreement with @stattlich1 about the "click" sound supposedly heard by AW that she supposedly told this caller about. Listen to the 2/17/17 PC audio; it's seriously muffled. I think it would be very hard to hear the click of a hammer being pulled back or even a slide being racked on that audio, and IMO it would be nearly impossible to be sure that's what it was even if it were audible. And it seems to me that "LE told her it was a gun being cocked" might mean the original person asked and the police said "yes, it might be a gun being cocked," not that there was a definitive statement on the matter.

(I've got 30+ years of dealing with people telling me what their doctors told them, versus what I read in the records that the doctor actually DID tell them, and people often hear differently under stress at times of high emotion.) (FWIW.)

 

[AC4RD]

I hear the perp say, "go down the hill."
The "go" part is audible to me at the 1:00 mark on this video.

I agree completely. Not everybody DOES hear it, which puzzles me--to me it sounds perfectly clear. The word "go" seems minimized to me--not "GO down the hill" but "g'down the hill." But I definitely hear it also.

 

[TL4S]

I still think the reason LE has held so much information back is because it became apparent within the first two weeks of the murder investigation that there was a large web of CSAM crimes occurring. It was soon discovered that the same devices/IP addresses connected to the CSAM Dropbox source were also connected to communications with L on and leading up to the day of the murders.

To release too much information, too soon, and even before LE fully understood what they were dealing with, would have put both the Delphi and the CSAM cases in jeopardy. Imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

How would they know?

DNA does not distinguish itself.

If DNA can be collected at a crime scene from blood, under the victims fingernails or from an object involved in the murder left behind LE would have a good lead, they’d know who they’re looking for. Given LEs wobbling on DNA in general, I doubt they have a full and complete sample of who they believe will match the killer. Anything else including touch DNA on clothing that may’ve only been transferred or such things as discarded items that could’ve blown in the wind or even been planted, no they can’t know and that’s definitely not enough to base a conviction on. Worst case scenario is if the murderer was also a searcher, which could explain for example the finding of a discarded cigarette butt in the area. But if somebody’s DNA was found, who claims to have never been near Delphi or the girls, that’s a great lead. But the prosecution needs more evidence than DNA alone, it’s only a starting point.

Outdoor crime scenes must be very difficult forensically, it’s not like a car or a building with doors and walls and hard flooring where the interior can be secured during examination. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, we were told that. But Peppery's point, and i agree, and others also agree, that GH *says* he talks to someone (we don't hear her) who *says* she knows AW, and he *says* that this person told him, that Mystery Person *says* AW told him the following. That's a whole lot of "no attribution" to me.

<modsnip: Off topic; GH is not the subject of this thread>

BTW, rather than agree separately, I'm 100% in agreement with @stattlich1 about the "click" sound supposedly heard by AW that she supposedly told this caller about. Listen to the 2/17/17 PC audio; it's seriously muffled. I think it would be very hard to hear the click of a hammer being pulled back or even a slide being racked on that audio, and IMO it would be nearly impossible to be sure that's what it was even if it were audible. And it seems to me that "LE told her it was a gun being cocked" might mean the original person asked and the police said "yes, it might be a gun being cocked," not that there was a definitive statement on the matter.

(I've got 30+ years of dealing with people telling me what their doctors told them, versus what I read in the records that the doctor actually DID tell them, and people often hear differently under stress at times of high emotion.) (FWIW.)

We’ve also seen quite a lot of LE prefacing comments with “could“ or “we believe” which is not a statement of fact, yet those same statements often seem to be repeated throughout time as if LE unequivocally asserted it to be so.

 

[dotr]

So if the killer is a hungry and savage beast, when and where will he hunt for his next meal?

Does it depend on whether his cravings are satisfied by fame or the actual act of murder?
Are these murders a ''one off'', or are there others victims of this killer yet to be discovered? imo

 

[IQuestion]

I have a question on how LE would have responded if a cell phone caller had hit "an emergency help button ie 911" instead of the "record" button. I was under the impression a 911 call starts recording sound even before the operator answers the call. Would officers have been dispatched in say maybe 2 minutes to that location. Do phones have a location beacon-type system the 911 feature is activated? I keep thinking all the roads would have at least had patrols on alert immediately.
And, I have no issue with a parallel investigation occurring simultaneously when the "trolling for minors" was discovered to be more extensive than the first interview with KK. BTW...I do think that was the issue "YOU NEVER THOUGHT WE WOULD CHANGE DIRECTIONS" ie, the start of the crime was not the bridge, the start of the crime began with the trolling for minors. (Hey, when you are looking for a rat, and you turn on the light....cockroaches scurry for cover, too.)

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

So if the killer is a hungry and savage beast, when and where will he hunt for his next meal?

Does it depend on whether his cravings are satisfied by fame or the actual act of murder?
Are these murders a ''one off'', or are there others victims of this killer yet to be discovered? imo

Interesting questions.Sometimes I've wondered if it was a one time thing,even wondered if bg was angry because of the AS profile but that's just my opinion.

 

[JnRyan]

The lead ISP investigator for the two years, 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman, was very coy in interviews about whether or not they even had DNA. Then last year during the HLN coverage in February HLN interviewed CC Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. The sheriff confirmed they have DNA, BUT stated they don't know if they have the killer's DNA. He didn't elaborate further or provide any info on what source - hair, touch, etc., - the DNA came from.

I suppose this means if LE has a POI and their DNA is not a match to what they got at the crime scene that doesn't necessarily clear the POI. And the flip side of that is that if the POI DOES match the DNA and the source was touch DNA or even hair, there can be an innocent reason for it being there. One of the hoodies that was worn by one of the girls was Kelsi's that she happened to have in her car. If Kelsi had worn it a few times over the winter and just tossed in the back seat each time who knows what DNA would be found on that garment.

 

[Betty P]

So if the killer is a hungry and savage beast, when and where will he hunt for his next meal?

Does it depend on whether his cravings are satisfied by fame or the actual act of murder?
Are these murders a ''one off'', or are there others victims of this killer yet to be discovered? imo

We should ask @Kell1

The crimes are sexually motivated, so these people don't change. They don't think there's anything wrong with what they do. Hopefully, they'll end up dead or incarcerated for some other offense, but the cold case files are full of them. Sometimes they move to another community and pick it up later. It's rare, but it seems some do stop if they think they will get caught, if age catches up to them or if other things change in their everyday life.

ETA: They will probably remain active on the internet, with CP, though. That's the best chance LE has of catching them, I suppose.

 

[Falling Down]

I have a question on how LE would have responded if a cell phone caller had hit "an emergency help button ie 911" instead of the "record" button. I was under the impression a 911 call starts recording sound even before the operator answers the call. Would officers have been dispatched in say maybe 2 minutes to that location. Do phones have a location beacon-type system the 911 feature is activated? I keep thinking all the roads would have at least had patrols on alert immediately.
And, I have no issue with a parallel investigation occurring simultaneously when the "trolling for minors" was discovered to be more extensive than the first interview with KK. BTW...I do think that was the issue "YOU NEVER THOUGHT WE WOULD CHANGE DIRECTIONS" ie, the start of the crime was not the bridge, the start of the crime began with the trolling for minors. (Hey, when you are looking for a rat, and you turn on the light....cockroaches scurry for cover, too.)

There's the emergency/911 feature which can be set up on a phone, it would at least give the dispatcher the general location of where the emergency alert originates from. An actual voice call in this case, gosh, either way (voice call or the 911 feature on the phone), I wonder what may have happened in this case.

There would be two ways to get into the gorge, I'm going to guess LE could have driven on the county road which becomes a driveway, however there may have been a gate where it becomes a driveway. The other way would have been where the girls were dropped off, I'm going to assume LE could have driven a vehicle right up the trail to the bridge, if it came down to it.

 

[Trebor5591]

So if the killer is a hungry and savage beast, when and where will he hunt for his next meal?

Does it depend on whether his cravings are satisfied by fame or the actual act of murder?
Are these murders a ''one off'', or are there others victims of this killer yet to be discovered? imo

A similar crime that occurred 5 years earlier and 400 miles away in Evansdale IA were the murders of Lyric Cook age 10 and Elizabeth Collins age 8. There are a lot of similarities and it is possible the same perpetrators were involved. My opinion.

Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins | Iowa Cold Cases

Lyric Cook, 10, and her cousin, Elizabeth Collins, 8, disappeared from Evansdale, IA, July 13, 2012. Their remains were found Dec. 5, 2012 in Bremer County, IA.

iowacoldcases.org