OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #71

[dgfred]

I would like a diagram showing where each shot likely originated from... with those trajectory rods too.

 

[Pru2U]

What is all that around the chair... are they not shots from inside staying inside?

I’m going to have to watch it again but my current impression is (at least one of them) CR/GR was shot inside the threshold, at or near the door - between door & chair. Shots came from outside. Bullets and fragments around chair could have been missed shots and/or traveled through bodies and exited landing on floor near chair.

See diagram posted by Betty P 2-3 pages back.

There was a concentration of blood on floor and bottom of chair, then drag marks from there.

Again, this is just the impression that formed in my head as I listened.

Eventually they will give us a reenactment. We may or may not get to see Jake’s testimony but I’m confident at minimum there will be a reenactment of each scene presented to jury.

 

[justtrish]

Some of these poor people are falling asleep..I hope the jury is awake. This guy sure is articulate.

He is excellent at explaining everything and I am so glad the male prosecutor (sorry don't recall names) is questioning him. He is good at questioning.

Also, I don't see this BCI agent getting tripped up at all when the defense cross examines him. He is very detailed and exact. He knows this stuff and I just don't see the defense getting any "points" on him when they get to question him.

 

[Tillicum]

Were able to just cut the linoleum to get that footwear impression. Kitchen had linoleum. Open box, show exhibit, identify

GW4 is writing again, taking notes

A shell casing found in the kitchen, between the back wall and a table.

Stipulating - insufficient data for determining DNA

Submitted because it could have had touch DNA on it

Firing a shell in a gun can destroy DNA on a shell casing.

Stopping for now, not finished with this witness yet.

Adjourning court for the weekend. Will be back on Monday 9 am.

GW definitely seems focused and possibly unnerved with the shoeprint testimony IMO.

 

[joe jones]

Agent Hansuck

Missed start of testimony, they waited to try to get bullet from under trailer, trajectory work done later,
Item 33 shell casing found in kitchen, fired 40 caliber cartridge case
front door turn to left (photo shown to jury) treadmill there, other officers climbed through treadmill to avoid disturbing scene,
blood patterns, drag marks on floor (only in court people can see blood photos) spent cartridge case 33
lost feed
bed, trash bag, clothing, copper jacket bullet, Item, collected projectile, ballistic evidence in living room, bedroom and front porch, kitchen
no shots came from inside to outside, shots from outside to inside from front yard
only I cartridge casing found, looked extensively for others, 40 calibers so would look for a gun that could fire 40 calibers, if more shell casings from differing scenes could match them, and if more shell casings could match to gun or suspects
blood evidence, could see where person was when bloodletting happened, ballistic item 13 by chair
blood on floor saturated, blood dragged across floor, going toward kitchen swabs from blood in front of chair,
bullet still in situ in photos bullet item 13, swab x2 collected from blood on floor. Stipulation A503 photo of blood, lab results positive for blood DNA CRsr, living room by chair
blood splatter on wall, Item 19 2 swabs from wall, lots of blood on wall, direction descending down, blood on wall stipulated to be blood/DNA CRsr,
transfer or drag mark to kitchen partial footwear impressions in blood, followed blood trail into kitchen, disrupted separate pattern swirl pattern area shows a person murdered in that area, footwear impressions in photo, disruption in drag,
second pattern individual bled lots of blood, blood pool, individual turned and dragged to kitchen, 2 swabs from large blood pool item 20
my opinion rug moved could have been used to clean up, Agents opinion not mine
Stipulation Item 20 swabs DNA was GR, blood pool on floor
blood splatter on back wall of living room,
stipulation item 21 DNA from blood on wall GR
multiple splatter blood stains on ceiling, look towards curtain and cabinet look up see blood on ceiling,
22 - 2 swabs off ceiling stipulation not sent to lab
wet blood leave shoe prints better than dry, saw footprints easily, blood dry when I got there, covered prints whilst working scene, photographed and collected footprints later, luco crystal violet enhanced detail in print, has a fixative to keep the print in place, cut floor out with some footprints on to take to lab,
chair, blood, footwear impressions in blood, where some of them were found in living room, 2 prints, item 23,
item 23 footprint photograph, details I could see on shoe no wear pattern, ruler in photo for scale
photographing so other experts can look at them later, detail in heel area photographed,
showing jury floor, he cut out with footprint on
other experts learned brand and size of shoe
Item 24 shoe print transfer of blood onto footwear leaving an impression in blood it was somewhat close to where 23 shoe print was, luco crystal violet used, photo with scale of print, zoom in, try to get this printout off floor, cut into floor and removed it, showing jury piece of floor cut out with footprint on,
Item 47 shoeprint, by door, (not sure which door) luco crystal applied after photos taken, scale in photos, cut out from floor, floor shown to jury
blood drag front door through living room to kitchen, rugs in photo, that were moved, blue tote, Item 33 only cartridge casing found under kitchen table, footwear impressions here, remarkable to him blood on floor going to bedroom footwear on top of blood footwear consistent throughout scene,
35 photo of footprint in kitchen, collected footprint off linoleum,
Item 33 cartridge kitchen between backwall and table
item 33 stipulation DNA insufficient data for analysis, submitted that could have touch DNA of suspects, heat and pressure from firing weapon destroys DNA on cartridge casings no DNA on cartridge casing

all mistakes my own

court done till Monday


,

 

[dgfred]

Probably shoe prints only thing besides JW putting him at crime scene.

 

[justtrish]

I’m going to have to watch it again but my current impression is (at least one of them) CR/GR was shot inside the threshold, at or near the door - between door & chair. Shots came from outside. Bullets and fragments around chair could have been missed shots and/or traveled through bodies and exited landing on floor near chair.

Eventually they will give us a reenactment. We may or may not get to see Jake’s testimony but I’m confident at minimum there will be a reenactment of each scene presented to jury.

I'm going to go back to listen to this part of AC's opening again because she explained what happened at each scene according to Jake. Now that we have heard all this testimony, I want to compare it to what she said about Jakes account of the shooting.

 

[CIA Team Member]

I’m going to have to watch it again but my current impression is (at least one of them) CR/GR was shot inside the threshold, at or near the door - between door & chair. Shots came from outside. Bullets and fragments around chair could have been missed shots and/or traveled through bodies and exited landing on floor near chair.

Eventually they will give us a reenactment. We may or may not get to see Jake’s testimony but I’m confident at minimum there will be a reenactment of each scene presented to jury.

I'm hoping it's a computer generated scenario they've compiled. Those are much more impactful than stills with rods.

Also, since they were shot mostly outside the trailer HOW were they escorted/moved into the trailer? They had to be quite incapacitated. Unless I missed something.

 

[Betty P]

I’m going to have to watch it again but my current impression is (at least one of them) CR/GR was shot inside the threshold, at or near the door - between door & chair. Shots came from outside. Bullets and fragments around chair could have been missed shots and/or traveled through bodies and exited landing on floor near chair.

Eventually they will give us a reenactment. We may or may not get to see Jake’s testimony but I’m confident at minimum there will be a reenactment of each scene presented to jury.

I agree. The only diagram I could find (posted a couple pages back) showed the trailer with spots indicating ballistics evidence and the mark of blood on the floor where bodies were dragged. It didn't show blood spatter or pools, which I assume are on a different diagram. I'm guessing same for the shoeprint evidence, perhaps a similar diagram with those marked on it.

Hopefully someone in the news media will post the last 2 diagrams. They're not graphic or bloody, just drawings, so it should be ok. Then we may get an idea of where people stood, where shot.

It seems like they both ended up getting shot and killed in the same general area, not far from the door. Yeah, it looks like Gary may have been closer to the door, possibly.

I have to keep reminding myself they were standing in front of an open door.

 

[Recidivist]

Did the police recover the shoes that were worn that night?

 

[LMDlong]

Looking at photos of blood trail in kitchen area, back toward bedroom area where victims were left.

Begin to see footwear impressions on top of the blood. Indicates the person walked back to the area after the bodies had been dragged back there.

Think this is 5th shoeprint. Multiple photographs but might not mean much at the time, but can only see so much detail. For that reason they take a lot of photos for expert examination later.

Wish we could see this diagram showing location of shoeprints

The picture of the living room with the chair shows one print.

 

[justtrish]

I agree. The only diagram I could find (posted a couple pages back) showed the trailer with spots indicating ballistics evidence and the mark of blood on the floor where bodies were dragged. It didn't show blood spatter or pools, which I assume are on a different diagram. I'm guessing same for the shoeprint evidence, perhaps a similar diagram with those marked on it.

Hopefully someone in the news media will post the last 2 diagrams. They're not graphic or bloody, just drawings, so it should be ok. Then we may get an idea of where people stood, where shot.

It seems like they both ended up getting shot and killed in the same general area, not far from the door. Yeah, it looks like Gary may have been closer to the door, possibly.

I have to keep reminding myself they were standing in front of an open door.

Yes and if I had the safety of my home right there and was being fired at and it was possible to get into the door I would try for that. Is it possible they were moving toward the porch or on the porch when they saw a gun come out or started being fired at. If so then the forward momentum of them moving in that direction could have propelled them forward even after being shot and then easier for the W's to drag them vs carrying them up on the porch. If there was no evidence of dragging on the porch, I might assume they were almost inside when the shooting started.

 

[LMDlong]

Did the police recover the shoes that were worn that night?

No

 

[Pru2U]

I agree. The only diagram I could find (posted a couple pages back) showed the trailer with spots indicating ballistics evidence and the mark of blood on the floor where bodies were dragged. It didn't show blood spatter or pools, which I assume are on a different diagram. I'm guessing same for the shoeprint evidence, perhaps a similar diagram with those marked on it.

Hopefully someone in the news media will post the last 2 diagrams. They're not graphic or bloody, just drawings, so it should be ok. Then we may get an idea of where people stood, where shot.

It seems like they both ended up getting shot and killed in the same general area, not far from the door. Yeah, it looks like Gary may have been closer to the door, possibly.

I have to keep reminding myself they were standing in front of an open door.

The diagram you posted was very helpful in regards to chair & door though. Thank you.

Regarding Mr. Morgan’s testimony, I opine the chair could have been pushed by one of them falling or scooted when the body was moved. It doesn’t appear anyone was shot while sitting in the chair, but rather standing in front of it.

 

[LMDlong]

The picture of the living room with the chair shows one print.

And some of the spatter and bullet holes.

 

[justtrish]

Did the police recover the shoes that were worn that night?

I don't believe so. They did recover the receipt for shoes at Walmart, then were able to get surveillance footage of AW buying them, the exact size in the blood prints. The expert in shoeprint analysis testified I think in prelims or something related to admissibility how he examines the prints, how he determines size and brand and can get the molds the shoes were made in and doesn't need an exact shoe to determine what the print belonged too. I recall him saying he can get the shoes from the store, but if they aren't available, he can use the mold from the manufacture.

 

[LMDlong]

The diagram you posted was very helpful in regards to chair & door though. Thank you.

Regarding Mr. Morgan’s testimony, I opine the chair could have been pushed by one of them falling or scooted when the body was moved. It doesn’t appear anyone was shot while sitting in the chair, but rather standing in front of it.

The way I understood him was that CR went down where the chair sits. Underneath it is more blood and a bullet hole. Will go back later and watch that part to make sure.

 

[Recidivist]

I don't believe so. They did recover the receipt for shoes at Walmart, then were able to get surveillance footage of AW buying them, the exact size in the blood prints. The expert in shoeprint analysis testified I think in prelims or something related to admissibility how he examines the prints, how he determines size and brand and can get the molds the shoes were made in and doesn't need an exact shoe to determine what the print belonged too. I recall him saying he can get the shoes from the store, but if they aren't available, he can use the mold from the manufacture.

So that only proves that Angela purchased the shoes. How do they prove those shoes were on George's foot?

 

[justtrish]

Probably shoe prints only thing besides JW putting him at crime scene.

I don't know what size shoe Billy is, but I am imagining larger than 10.5 and 11 (which is the size AW bought at Walmart) then it's really damning because Jake's testimony puts him there, AW's testimony and evidence puts her buying shoes that prints were found at the crime scene exactly where I'm assuming Jake put both of them moving bodies and if all that lines up, then who else would have been wearing the shoes? 1 person doesn't wear 2 different size shoes to throw off a crime scene and frame their brother.. dad doesn't even wear these shoes and if the size is way off, wouldn't even be able to wear them so who else is walking around on top of the blood while it's wet? Not the victims because they have access to their shoes so wouldn't be them walking around with bullet wounds to their head.

 

[Pru2U]

Agent Hansuck

Missed start of testimony, they waited to try to get bullet from under trailer, trajectory work done later,
Item 33 shell casing found in kitchen, fired 40 caliber cartridge case
front door turn to left (photo shown to jury) treadmill there, other officers climbed through treadmill to avoid disturbing scene,
blood patterns, drag marks on floor (only in court people can see blood photos) spent cartridge case 33
lost feed
bed, trash bag, clothing, copper jacket bullet, Item, collected projectile, ballistic evidence in living room, bedroom and front porch, kitchen
no shots came from inside to outside, shots from outside to inside from front yard
only I cartridge casing found, looked extensively for others, 40 calibers so would look for a gun that could fire 40 calibers, if more shell casings from differing scenes could match them, and if more shell casings could match to gun or suspects
blood evidence, could see where person was when bloodletting happened, ballistic item 13 by chair
blood on floor saturated, blood dragged across floor, going toward kitchen swabs from blood in front of chair,
bullet still in situ in photos bullet item 13, swab x2 collected from blood on floor. Stipulation A503 photo of blood, lab results positive for blood DNA CRsr, living room by chair
blood splatter on wall, Item 19 2 swabs from wall, lots of blood on wall, direction descending down, blood on wall stipulated to be blood/DNA CRsr,
transfer or drag mark to kitchen partial footwear impressions in blood, followed blood trail into kitchen, disrupted separate pattern swirl pattern area shows a person murdered in that area, footwear impressions in photo, disruption in drag,
second pattern individual bled lots of blood, blood pool, individual turned and dragged to kitchen, 2 swabs from large blood pool item 20
my opinion rug moved could have been used to clean up, Agents opinion not mine
Stipulation Item 20 swabs DNA was GR, blood pool on floor
blood splatter on back wall of living room,
stipulation item 21 DNA from blood on wall GR
multiple splatter blood stains on ceiling, look towards curtain and cabinet look up see blood on ceiling,
22 - 2 swabs off ceiling stipulation not sent to lab
wet blood leave shoe prints better than dry, saw footprints easily, blood dry when I got there, covered prints whilst working scene, photographed and collected footprints later, luco crystal violet enhanced detail in print, has a fixative to keep the print in place, cut floor out with some footprints on to take to lab,
chair, blood, footwear impressions in blood, where some of them were found in living room, 2 prints, item 23,
item 23 footprint photograph, details I could see on shoe no wear pattern, ruler in photo for scale
photographing so other experts can look at them later, detail in heel area photographed,
showing jury floor, he cut out with footprint on
other experts learned brand and size of shoe
Item 24 shoe print transfer of blood onto footwear leaving an impression in blood it was somewhat close to where 23 shoe print was, luco crystal violet used, photo with scale of print, zoom in, try to get this printout off floor, cut into floor and removed it, showing jury piece of floor cut out with footprint on,
Item 47 shoeprint, by door, (not sure which door) luco crystal applied after photos taken, scale in photos, cut out from floor, floor shown to jury
blood drag front door through living room to kitchen, rugs in photo, that were moved, blue tote, Item 33 only cartridge casing found under kitchen table, footwear impressions here, remarkable to him blood on floor going to bedroom footwear on top of blood footwear consistent throughout scene,
35 photo of footprint in kitchen, collected footprint off linoleum,
Item 33 cartridge kitchen between backwall and table
item 33 stipulation DNA insufficient data for analysis, submitted that could have touch DNA of suspects, heat and pressure from firing weapon destroys DNA on cartridge casings no DNA on cartridge casing

all mistakes my own

court done till Monday


,

I am in awe. Well done and thank you!