ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow #3

[justtrish]

I think (ex-FBI agent) Brad Garrett agrees with you.


"Former FBI agent and ABC News contributor Brad Garrett thinks the surviving roommates are the "key" in the investigation, but he doesn't think they are suspects.
"It's a small town. The likelihood that they know who that person was in the house, I think, is reasonable," Garrett said Thursday morning."

Idaho college murders: 2 surviving roommates not believed to be involved, police say

Police are pleading with the public to help them find the unknown suspect who stabbed four University of Idaho students to death.

abcnews.go.com

I'd say if they are likely to know the person and the person knows those girls know him, then they should be in protective custody or something. Mabye the reason for the vauge remarks about the 2 girls is to keep them safe from the person or maybe they hope the person responsible will mess up and reach out to one of them?

 

[Cryptic]

it's possible you would only think there is an upstairs and a downstairs. They would likely see the banister leading downstairs inside, but I doubt they would expect people down there. They would think laundry/basement.

The fact that two girls were left alone entirely leads me think this wasn't someone who knows the people in the house because they would have wanted to get rid of potential witnesses.

Good points.

Not going into the lowest level may also distantly point towards a non student.

Students would probably be more likely to know that rentals in student heavy areas can be crowded and have mini apartments / rented rooms in quirky places. Landlords like to maximize occupancy, students like inexpensive rent payments, and are also less likely to be turned off by less than ideal living conditions.

But... a perpetrator used to single occupancy / single family homes would be less likely to expect additional rooms / mini apartments in seemingly strange places- like down in the basement or on a sub level that otherwise says "Laundry / Storage".

 

[FruitTingles]

Yes I would take what Kaylee’s sister has said as more credible than what is basically, a rumor a random student told Mark Fuhrman.

The Inside Edition story is also misleading in the way its headline describes the killer passing the survivors’ rooms. These were not bedrooms along a hallway like the Bundy sorority house scene, as we know, the bedrooms were on different levels of the structure.

University of Idaho Murders: Victim Reportedly Spoke of a Stalker Months Ago, Killer Passed Survivors' Room

The 911 call that led to the discovery of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle's bodies was not made by their roommates, leaving many to ask who did make that call?

www.insideedition.com

I agree. It’s worth noting that Kaylee’s sister did do an interview with Inside Edition though.

 

[Cedarsage]

The timeline says all the victims were home at 1:45. Has there been any mention about who arrived home first?

 

[What's up Doc]

I think (ex-FBI agent) Brad Garrett agrees with you.


"Former FBI agent and ABC News contributor Brad Garrett thinks the surviving roommates are the "key" in the investigation, but he doesn't think they are suspects.
"It's a small town. The likelihood that they know who that person was in the house, I think, is reasonable," Garrett said Thursday morning."

Idaho college murders: 2 surviving roommates not believed to be involved, police say

Police are pleading with the public to help them find the unknown suspect who stabbed four University of Idaho students to death.

abcnews.go.com

Just my opinion, but these are college girls, young, they are studying, and living their life. I highly doubt the two roomates are killers, but they might have information. And as such, if I were them and had information, I would be scared to speak to anyone outside of LE. That certainly applies to media. MOO

 

[Oregonmama]

But both the coroner says they were all found in beds and the chief says he believes they were all killed while sleeping.

Until I hear from LE, I am not going to totally rely on her report.

 

[darring21]

Until I hear from LE, I am not going to totally rely on her report.

The police chief is LE.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593711666696683520

 

[girlhasnoname]

If they were all in bed then why do some say there was blood everywhere? I just can't make sense of it.

The local Coroner reported the fatal wounds were to the chest neck area. Those types of wound can spew arterial blood spatters. There would also be pooling of blood since the victims bled out for several hours before being found.

MOO

 

[Oregonmama]

Just my opinion, but these are college girls, young, they are studying, and living their life. I highly doubt the two roomates are killers, but they might have information. And as such, if I were them and had information, I would be scared to speak to anyone outside of LE. That certainly applies to media. MOO

Respectfully, can you elaborate on why you think the roommates should not be considered suspects? I remember from my college days how mad some girls could get when they misunderstood a roommate issue or didn't ask for clarification and just internally fumed inside. If a person is angry enough and has thoughts such as killing, the individual would act if that's what they chose. JMO

 

[Tillicum]

Thinking out loud here...based on the "targeted" theory...did the suspect/s camp out stalking the house all night...watching from a protected vantage point? Or did they observe and track the victims moves out in public that night to have a better idea when they arrived home?

According to the released time line, we know EC / XK were away from the residence from at least 8pm and KG / MM were away from the residence from at least 10pm. Was the suspect/s scouting the house prior to the victims leaving so he/she knew they were gone and then waited until they returned?

It would help the timeline to at least know when the surviving roommates left and returned. I'm not suggesting they're responsible, but it sure would help to understand the who, how, when and where IMO.

 

[SortaSleuthy]

That just doesn't seem to happen with any regularity. I see that theory thrown around during spousal murder cases, and it's never borne out.

You have a grudge, you take it out on the person you have a grudge with. This person apparently went room to room, massacring people.

“You have a grudge, you take it out on the person you have a grudge with.”
I agree. It is for this reason I think a nut-job neighbor did it. It was a Party House. The noise must have been awful.

 

[uburoi1]

Just my opinion, but these are college girls, young, they are studying, and living their life. I highly doubt the two roomates are killers, but they might have information. And as such, if I were them and had information, I would be scared to speak to anyone outside of LE. That certainly applies to media. MOO

College girls have been known to have boyfriends.

 

[Retired_grumpy_bastard]

College students are smart enough to lawyer up, especially the type that can afford to be in a fraternity.

I think this is going to turn out to be someone within their sphere, not necessarily a student but possibly someone that one of them had interacted with in some way and he became obsessed.

Something not mentioned is that Madison and Kaylee looked a LOT alike. It is possbile the killer targeted one of them, killed the wrong one, realized his mistake then went for the other. Maybe Ethan heard something, got up to investigate, and was killed. Xana heard the struggle, screamed, and he went after her. This does not fit the "all found in bed" statement but I don't think that is 100% correct because there are pictures of blood running down the outside wall of the house. Seems unlikely that would happen if he were on a bed.

You’ve obviously had a different experience than me. I would say 95% of the college students I’ve arrested never asked for a lawyer and paved a path to conviction, by talking. I’ve arrested college students for everything from DWI to theft, aggravated assault, armed robbery and even murder. The overwhelming majority of college students I’ve dealt with immediately start answering questions. That’s not nearly as common with violent career felons, that have been to prison.

Oddly enough, I once arrested a criminal justice professor, for domestic violence. He practically built my case for me, with his inability to shut his mouth.

Yes, Maddison and Kaylee look a lot alike. If I didn’t know better, I would think they were sisters. You might be on to something with that.

 

[justtrish]

The timeline says all the victims were home at 1:45. Has there been any mention about who arrived home first?

Just from looking at the timeline the couple were at a party from 8-9 and then just shows 1:45 at home. The 2 girls were at the taco truck at 1:40 so I'm thinking they arrived home at 1:45 and unless they all arrive together at 1:45, I'd say the couple was unaccounted for from 9-1:45, but possibly they were home. It seems they know for sure they were there at 1:45, but interesting it doesn't say a time they arrived home. I'd think phone data would show something from 9-1:45.

 

[Oregonmama]

“You have a grudge, you take it out on the person you have a grudge with.”
I agree. It is for this reason I think a nut-job neighbor did it. It was a Party House. The noise must have been awful.

I understand that theory but 2 ppl were spared. If the sp didnt like a party house then he would have killed everyone. I do believe that E and X were at the wrong place at the right time and they were killed because their bedroom was near the point of entry.

 

[Plumeria5]

Could someone explain or lead me to an interview about what the coroner or LE said about the 2 other roommates?

 

[Manwel]

Has anyone noted

Some things to consider regarding fresh antemortem bruising vs. postmortem changes, especially in Xana's incredibly tragic situation.

It would be possible for fresh bruises to be formed shortly before death. Blunt force and pressure from penetrating injuries causes blood to bleed from rupture vessels into the surrounding tissue. These would appear as some bright markings. Comparative injuries are described as "fresh bruising" in the areas of the non-fatal stab wounds in Ronald Goldman's autopsy.

I want to heavily preface this by stating I am not a pathologist and certainly don't envy their job. If I am not mistaken, the first reports of Xana's apparent defensive injuries did not reappear in the publicly released autopsy. What could have caused the discrepancy?

Defensive bruising, like those seen in Ronald Goldman, can be diminished by several important factors. First, rapid exsanguination can occur following severing of major arteries such as carotid, aorta and abdominal aorta. Consciousness can be lost in 10-15 seconds. In Goldman's case, he was likely able to mount a much more vigorous defense in his case due to his greater size and strength and his likely higher level of alertness at the time of the attack. This provided enough time for the bruising described to occur before the fatal wound occurred as outlined in his autopsy.

As much as I hate it, this sweet and innocent girl would probably not be similarly matched physically and was likely less alert as she was at her home in the middle of the night. While her instincts and inner strength were beautiful and incredibly valiant, IMO it would have been a very difficult for anyone in such a situation to muster more than a quick reaction. Again, I have no idea what happened and can only speculate like the rest of us. However, if true, it would have some important implications. Rapid exsanguination following initial injury can remove blood from the body more quickly than it could enter tissue to cause antemortem bruising.

Once the heart quits pumping blood out, it begins to settle in the dependent areas of the body in the process of liver mortis. This causes a red to bluish discoloration in the areas most effected by gravity. For example, if laying on ones back, the regions of the back in contact with surface would pool with blood from the the rest of body. The areas under greater pressure would blanch a whitish color, leading to a mottled, bruised like appearance rather than a solid discolored region.

This process can be altered by postmortem factors up to 12 hours after death, at which time the liver mortis color patten is fixed and no longer changing. If we assume time of death between 1 and 4 am, this would mean that by the time the bodies were really looked at, the process was almost already comple te. Bruising appearances of the arm could occur in a couple ways.

First, if positioned on the arm, the areas in greater contact with the ground would be lighter and appear to have a "beaten" appearance. However, there is another way that the this could occur. If she were laying flat, the redness would be uniform on the side of the arm facing the ground. Or, if an arm was dangling off a bed, the hand and forearm would be a darker red. As I mentioned above, by 12 hours, the pattern of redness if fixed. However, if her body were moved, there would be a second pattern that shows a new postmortem body position. If the killer had moved the body, perhaps before the other girls got home, there would be changes. Even if the killer were very careful and positioned the body in the same way, it wouldn't change the regions they put significant force on while moving a body. Again, this is all speculation, but when I picture someone moving a body, I picture them grabbing the arms to pull. This would cause regions of significant blanching against a red and purple background. If grasped in a couple different spots, it may be possible that the blanching in some areas could overpower the red/purple mottling, especially given the significance amount of blood loss. I think this could very easily be seen and misunderstood by literally anyone but a pathologist as being areas of intense bruising on the arms.

Again, this is all speculation and my opinion without anything more than the information on TV and in these threads. It just makes me wonder, could she have been moved? What about the boyfriend? If we assume the bf was attacked in the hallway after perhaps hearing a disturbance following the attack of the first two girls, we can't help but feel that they were collateral damage. But if they were actually targeted initially, moving their bodies to appear as the unintended victims could serve as a distraction to the investigation.

This is why I only read and never typed in all the cases on here over the years. It is very easy to try and make things out of nothing when answers are desperately wanted for justice for the victims and comfort for their families. Hopefully this isn't to off the wall of a theory, and if so, I apologize. I am no expert in any of this.

Because their autopsy reports, their actual formal documents, have not been released. At least not as far as I have seen.

The coroner document was a Word Doc writeup of known information. The parents have been made privy to actual autopsy results, they may have actually been allowed to see their bodies or photos. They would know what they looked like.

Livor mortis, or lividity, which is when the blood isn't flowing and gravity takes over, sets in after just 20-30 minutes, but it won't be visible to the naked eye until a few hours later. Also, notably, it's most intense about 6 hours on and it sticks around for several days. The autopsies were several days later but still in the time frame for them to see evidence of livor mortis.

Now, granted, with severe blood loss, lividity is less pronounced and won't be the same as if you die from say a heart attack. But in theory, if you apply pressure to livor mortis, it will blanch or turn white due to the pressure displacing the blood to another location. A bruise on the body would not blanch under pressure, which helps differentiate bruises from other marks. Moreover, I would infer that with blood loss, bruises might be easier to identify in the absence of strong lividity.

 

[tara83]

I understand that theory but 2 ppl were spared. If the sp didnt like a party house then he would have killed everyone. I do believe that E and X were at the wrong place at the right time and they were killed because their bedroom was near the point of entry.

He might not have realized 2 other people were on bottom floor.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Respectfully, can you elaborate on why you think the roommates should not be considered suspects? I remember from my college days how mad some girls could get when they misunderstood a roommate issue or didn't ask for clarification and just internally fumed inside. If a person is angry enough and has thoughts such as killing, the individual would act if that's what they chose. JMO

Not the OP, but LE has stated they are not suspects and are cooperating with the investigation. I find it almost impossible to think one or both girls planned and physically pulled off the vicious stabbing of 4 of their closet friends.

Plus they are considered victims on WS.

MOO

 

[happyday]

My theory atm is every type of perp is on the table as far as stranger vs. known to victim(s), and everything in between. The possibilities are endless right now, imo.

Yes! There is just too much unknown here to have any real theory yet.