ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 29

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Why would someone target a house, building, apartment complex, certain address, etc

Noise / antisocial behaviour / ordered to avenge something (a hit) / wanting to send out a message of sorts / a very sick challenge or dare / a psychotic delusion

 

[SuziQ]

Why would someone target a house, building, apartment complex, certain address, etc

The location is convenient, easy to break in, they used to live there, etc etc.

 

[SUSAN ANN]

Well they may have been running but to or from what !?

They don’t look like they were out on a sports training run, in the dark, not in sport clothes IMO

My own feeling is that that 3:01 911 call somehow ties in with what happened that early morning. Just my opinion I feel like it ties in with something to do with sigma.

 

[hopewell]

Oh, I totally agree. I'm only saying that an introverted, planning sadist can ALSO be an incel, or a doctor, or a truck driver, or a lawyer, or a student or anyone else. These are not exclusive categories.

I do not think this is an impulsive rage killer, exactly (although again, you can have people who are great planners also fly off into rages - it's actually a scary personality blend, IMO).

I totally agree that this was planned - and my own word would be...meticulously planned. Researched on the internet. Telegraphed to others in only the most hidden ways - a challenge to people around him, "See who I am? You don't even look at me - you don't see who I am!"

Internalized, longstanding, lingering - YES. A grievance collector who decided that he was eventually going to lose it and commit some bloody crime - so he spent the last year or so planning it very well.

This argues for a long refractory period, as seen with other killers. Eventually (maybe), the rage will rise again - right now, he's just very concerned with executing this plan and not getting caught.

As to whether his quest had to do with the identity of the victims or not - I go back and forth.

You are describing (and I totally agree) a really disturbed and relatively rare individual. It's hard to believe that this rando rage sadist could be in the inner circle of the victims, but he's somewhere - lurking around some people, somewhere. He doesn't live in a tent. He has internet, I'm convinced of it. He stalked them online, most likely. It's possible he's from out of state - and that something in their profiles/backgrounds/follower base...caught his attention. When people permit strangers from around the nation to share in their Instagram world (esp if there are DM's), all of a sudden, many people are now involved with convos with...bad actors. Something either drew this killer to Moscow (if he didn't already live there) or he's a sadist crazy killer who is a local of some kind (not necessarily born there of course).

These days, there are a lot of people who think it's funny to flip people off or stand up to them verbally in public - people in general are less demure than in the past (MOO, but based on available research). The easily offended sadistic grievance collector is rare - but they are out there. This guy needs to be caught.

Not sure of whether we can discuss actual theories about a serial killer thoroughly at this point.

Your definitives are my definitives and your teetering is my teetering.

Agree that it could be an incel, but unlikely in my view because they usually (quite un-meticulously) lose their chit, lay waste, and seek glory. Indeed, they want everyone to know what they did and what was 'done' to them. We have no such pronouncements here.

Likewise, a student - if average age - is unlikely to have developed to this kind of pathology as yet. It takes years to build up these kinds of grievances, and years to build up this kind of 'courage' to act. That's why folks talking about aggrieved exes and frat boys just don't mesh with me.

My opinion.

 

[human]

On this weather report, there had been snow Nov 7,

The Hill behind the house looks shady.

It is thought that perhaps the killer came down the hillside.

Do people feel that there could have been snow and he left a footprint?

There was some 36degree weather but I don’t feel that is warm enough to melt snow in the shade.

I am hoping for some kind of clues

Weather in November 2022 in Moscow, Idaho, USA

Weather reports from November 2022 in Moscow, Idaho, USA with highs and lows

www.timeanddate.com

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Whoever got taken 3rd and 4th may not have been intended but because they were awake and coming to see what was happening?

Exactly.

 

[hopewell]

People in their early 20s with schizophrenia have committed violent mass murder of peers. That's not to suggest that a schizophrenic is behind these murders, but men in their early 20s are "developmentally" capable of mass murder. I don't think anyone should be ruled out due to age or gender, although the suspect is most likely male. Link

If targeted means planned, then we know that the suspect planned to murder at that house, perhaps with a specific individual in mind. Police have said that either the residence or an individual at the residence was the target.

No disagreement here, but schizophrenia typically manifests in men in their mid to late 20s. Woman a little later, if I recall correctly.

I am not saying that men in their late teens/early 20s aren't developmentally capable of mass murder. I am saying that they aren't developmentally capable of this kind of mass murder.

My opinion.

 

[Eric Trott]

Why would someone target a house, building, apartment complex, certain address, etc

Because it's known to have something that the person(s) want. <modsnip>

 

[EmmieA]

What baffles me most is that someone could slaughter 4 pepole and not leave any blood trail while leaving……we don’t see any markings by police outside. No indication that they even identified one drop of blood anywhere. Not one site marked for identification. it doesn’t seem possible. Not even outside the sliding door where I am assuming the killer escaped, or the 3rd floor porch if he/she leaped out on the hill to head for Walenta Drive.

How does one do that?

We haven’t seen much of the backyard as it’s been a crime scene for a month now. And this report specifies that investigators were in “the backyard putting down evidence markers, digging through the leaves, pulling things out…” They could have found blood.

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/embedded-video/mmvo154486341806

MOO

 

[Vivyinsect]

On this weather report, there had been snow Nov 7,

The Hill behind the house looks shady.

It is thought that perhaps the killer came down the hillside.

Do people feel that there could have been snow and he left a footprint?

There was some 36degree weather but I don’t feel that is warm enough to melt snow in the shade.

I am hoping for some kind of clues

Weather in November 2022 in Moscow, Idaho, USA

Weather reports from November 2022 in Moscow, Idaho, USA with highs and lows

www.timeanddate.com

I didn’t see any signs of snow in the food truck video or during the crime scene footage the following day.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

I think part of his anger has to do with LE having to rule out each family member from early on in the investigation. I've watched videos of investigators interrogating various individuals and it certainly is uncomfortable to say the very least. If this is the case here, he was no doubt terribly offended which is perfectly understandable and not unusual in any way. In fact, it may be one reason he chose to hire an attorney, but this is only guesswork or speculation on my part. It does explain why he has expressed such vitriol and criticism towards LE. MOO

I believe his anger is rooted in his overwhelming sense of helplessness. He couldn’t save her from this nightmare. Now, in the aftermath he is behaving much like John Walsh. He will do everything and anything to pursue the killer and obtain justice for his daughter. He won’t sleep until he is caught. Any father and parent would do the same.

 

[Down To Earth]

That quote was a "miscommunication". Police have since released the statement that they are unsure whether the residence, or an occupant of the residence, was the target.


"Then, on Wednesday, the Moscow police said that the prosecutor in Idaho’s Latah County erroneously had said this week that “the suspect(s) specifically looked at this residence,” and “that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted.”

The police statement said the prosecutor’s comments were a “miscommunication,” adding, “Detectives do not currently know if the residence or any occupants were specifically targeted.”

Dec 5

Moscow police say a sixth person on the lease isn't involved in the Idaho student killings | CNN

The Moscow Police Department said on Friday that they don't believe a sixth person listed on the lease at the residence, where four University of Idaho students were killed last month, was involved in their deaths.

www.cnn.com

Thank you Otto but I think you missed the spirit of my post. I understand the prosecutor’s account was a “miscommunication”. The spirit of my post was to try to give context to the targeted occupants vs targeted residence thread that LE has been steadfast about. I was just pondering whether IF they had seen in a neighbor’s security cam that a certain car had driven by over and over, slowed down by the house, stopped, etc… could that, in theory, be enough evidence for LE to firmly believe it was a targeted attack? It would certainly make the occupants vs residence statements make a little more sense IMO.

I’m not splitting hairs though Otto. I appreciate you taking the time to post and link for clarification. I don’t dispute that PD made it clear the prosecutor was miscommunicating. They didn’t specifically roll back the comment about “suspect(s) specifically looked at the residence” though, so maybe I AM splitting hairs lol. IMO they seem to really just roll back the prosecutor’s notion that it was the occupants (as opposed to the residence) that were “undoubtedly” targeted. Here’s their press release when they updated about the miscommunication. It was released on the “Wednesday” noted in the CNN article you cited.

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24784/11-30-2022---Moscow-Homicide-Update---Clarification

Obviously I don’t know anything about anything. I’m just pondering that there’s likely some type of hard evidence that is leading them to believe it was a targeted crime. All just my opinion.

 

[human]

@Margo Hughes
I have a keypad on both doors the front door and back door.
They both came with 2 sets of keys each.
I used the key before to get in when the batteries died. Both doors automatically lock as soon as you close them. So the keys are incase the batteries die. I have had the keypads for over a decade and only had to use a key that one time.

I have a keypad lock on my door. When I enter the code, it makes a whirring noise to let me know it is working, That I have entered the correct code.
If I do not get it at the correct time, I have to start over.

It does not automatically lock. I have to twist a knob on the inside

And to lock the door from the outside, I press a logo and it makes a whirring noise to let me know it is working

Your lock has no noise to let you know it is working?

 

[EmmieA]

View attachment 387038

Some of the murdered University of Idaho students were stabbed in their beds, coroner says

According to police, the coroner said all four victims were likely asleep, some had defensive wounds and each was stabbed multiple times.

www.cbsnews.com

But she didn’t correct her earlier comment that they were likely sleeping… Very unpopular opinion: I think this meant K wasn’t in her bed - she was in M’s bed.

MOO

 

[Notthisshipsister]

Then why does the ME say they were all "sleeping" at the time of their attacks? That's a basic thing to figure out, the direction of the wounds and the bleeding onto the bed should show that. I don't believe anyone got up to check - it's possible Ethan was in motion, but it's also possible that he didn't move until the perp was actually in the room.

Both SG and the coroner are saying that K and M were in their bed. No defensive wounds mentioned by the coroner. So I say they were killed first, if we have to choose.

And it's possible that E and X were pushed closer to a wakeful state by something they heard. But the report still emphasizes that the victims were "sleeping."

I have been wondering since the information was released that the victims were "sleeping", how that could possibly be determined. Another websleuth poster pointed out that Apple watches can track sleep-- but then in that case, if all 4 victims were described as "sleeping" each would have had to have an Apple watch on, correct? One might assume that the victims were sleeping because of the late hour, or the alcohol consumption, but in reality just because people were found in bed it doesn't necessarily mean that they were asleep. MOO

 

[RayVon]

I hope you never lose a child. There is no “counseling”, no solace, no reprieve. The grief is all encompassing and it takes your legs out from under you. The world is turned upside down, and nothing makes sense or matters except getting answers. You somehow believe that those answers will bring you peace, so you go balls to the wall to get them. The sad truth is that even getting those answers will never be enough. The pain will still be there, the fog that surrounds you won’t lift, and the fact that life continues and the world is still spinning seems, at best, to be sacrilege.

Please…let that father wail and scream and beat his chest. Let him name call and stir emotions. Let him, while he is remembering holding his daughter’s hand, while he is remembering her first steps, while he recalling dropping her off at college for the first time, let him grieve. He has earned that. He deserves that. Every parent who has ever had to look into the lifeless eyes of their dead child deserves that. Begrudging him that right is not anyone’s right. If the worst he does in his darkest hours is name call, LE is going to need to suck it up. That was his daughter.
~A Grieving Mom

Grief is the only thing this father has to hold on to. Let the poor father rage and grieve. Show empathy. His reactions to his daughter's murder are not going to derail a quadruple murder investigation.

 

[layer]

I have been wondering since the information was released that the victims were "sleeping", how that could possibly be determined.

You know how cautious LE can be. The exact phrasing used was "likely sleeping when they were attacked", if that helps.

 

[otto]

TRANSCRIPT.

CAPTAIN GIVES BRIEF UPDATE

12TH DECEMBER.

Captain - Good morning, my name's Roger Lanier. I'm the Captain with the Moscow Police Department. I'm in charge of the Operations Division. And today is Dec. 12th, Monday. I want to give you an update on the King Rd. homicide investigations, at least the information that we have to this point. Over the weekend, investigators still continued to sort through numerous tips, calls and online tips in regard to this investigation.

There's been a lot of questions about the white car that we've been interested in. We're looking for that car because we believe, through our investigation, that that car was in the area during the time of the murders and we also believe that the occupant or occupants may have seen something. They may not know they've seen something. So, we specifically want to talk to them and we want to know who they are and what they might know or might be able to contribute to the investigation.

Over the weekend, investigators have sorted through and prioritised numerous tips. Some are tips that came in earlier and we've been working on. Other tips are new and are relevant. It's overwhelming sometimes with the amount of information that comes in on these tip lines. So, our analysts have spent hours sorting through and trying to come up with the most relevant tips first for the investigators to follow up on. They have re-interviewed some of the folks we've interviewed earlier in this investigation to clarify information. Sometimes when new information comes forward, the people that we've spoken to beforehand may have new insight on that. So, it does often seem like we're backtracking but we're really just trying to get the most important details and the best timeline that we can come up with.

We have literally an army of analysts who have been sorting through videos that have been submitted through the fbi.gov.moscow upload site. Those videos are from all over town, gas stations and specifically the area around King Rd. We've been trying to use those videos to garner new information. As you can imagine, there's hours and hours and hours of videos, so it does take a lot of time.

I want to talk a minute about safety. There's been a lot of speculation about what is the safety to the public right now or the risk to the public right now. I would just like to add that we should always be vigilant. Certainly we should be vigilant now, but we should make that a way of life for us. We should always be walking with our head up, sticking to lighted paths and walking in groups, if we can. In addition, letting people know when you've arrived home if you have not made prior arrangements. This is not an indication of a specific elevated risk, but something that we should be vigilant with just in our daily lives.

I want let everybody know that we are still 100% committed to solving this crime. There's a lot of information to sort through and the information keeps coming in and not all of the information is relevant. But you don't know if a tip is valid until you take the time to examine that tip and see how it relates to other information that you might have. We have teams in Moscow, Salt Lake City and in Virginia, as well as other locations across the country and we're prepared to do interviews and follow up on information at any point, anywhere. The ISP and FBI investigators along with the Moscow Police Department investigators, includes dozens of analysts, tip line operators and others. And they're working around the clock, seven days a week, to sort through the volumes of information. MPD has detectives, support personnel and a communications team to try to keep everything together, but it is still a daunting task. The FBI, their investigators, are ready at a moments notice at any place in the country to go conduct an interview should the tips and leads take us there. And, the Idaho State Police has, besides working on the investigation, had several uniformed troopers in the area to help with safety concerns around the city and on the University of Idaho campus.

Just a quick reminder. Please stick to official news releases for information. Tracking down rumours and quelling rumours about specific individuals or specific events that may or may not have happened is a huge distraction for investigators and oftentimes is the result of social media propagation and it is very, very frustrating to investigators and hard to stay on track.

Finally I just want to add that we do have a lot of information and we are specifically keeping that information safe. We're not releasing specific details because we do not want to compromise this investigation. It's what we must do. We owe that to the families and we owe that to the victims. We want more than just an arrest. We want a conviction. We owe that justice to Xana, Kaylee, Madison and Ethan.

And finally, I would just like remind anybody with information - you can call the tip line at 208-883-7180 and that is directly to the tip line office in the FBI. There's been some frustration about having to wade through the tip line, but remember this is not the only investigation in the country. So, please be patient. We want that information. Anything could break this open for us and then also the e-mail tip line is tipline@CI.moscow.ID.US. Thank you for your continued patience in this investigation.

Thank you for the transcript!

From the transcript ... sounds like the owner of the car has not come forward, so police are sorting through CCTV from the surrounding area to piece together the route of that car.


"There's been a lot of questions about the white car that we've been interested in. We're looking for that car because we believe, through our investigation, that that car was in the area during the time of the murders and we also believe that the occupant or occupants may have seen something. They may not know they've seen something. So, we specifically want to talk to them and we want to know who they are and what they might know or might be able to contribute to the investigation.
...

We have literally an army of analysts who have been sorting through videos that have been submitted through the fbi.gov.moscow upload site. Those videos are from all over town, gas stations and specifically the area around King Rd. We've been trying to use those videos to garner new information. As you can imagine, there's hours and hours and hours of videos, so it does take a lot of time."

Link

 

[hopewell]

Likely sleeping when they were killed but not all of them were necessarily in their beds could mean they were asleep in their beds when killed but then posed elsewhere.

My opinion.

 

[Skigirl]

No disagreement here, but schizophrenia typically manifests in men in their mid to late 20s. Woman a little later, if I recall correctly.

I am not saying that men in their late teens/early 20s aren't developmentally capable of mass murder. I am saying that they aren't developmentally capable of this kind of mass murder.

My opinion.

First breaks tend to be earlier in men -- 18-20. Women tend to be diagnosed a bit later.

When does schizophrenia develop? Average onset and more

Symptoms of schizophrenia usually appear in a person's 20s. However, the average age of onset varies greatly from study to study. Learn more.

www.medicalnewstoday.com