4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 75

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Thank you for that link!

I was just pointing out that they were also interested in times and dates (and wondering what they might be interested in relation to times). Also any communications with drivers and the cars they were driving in addition to whatever caused them to look at drivers in the first place.. I agree there is more behind it with relation to the drivers.

Maybe they found a driver that had previous history?
Some kind of tip about a particular driver?

Perhaps a driver owned an elantra?

MOO
respectfully, though, if you read the links provided, you'll see they cannot invade the privacy of all drivers because of one driver; owning an elantra is not PC; even a Dasher who drove an Elantra is not PC without something else, like being at the time and place of the murders; they cannot single out many for one, etc. The scope of the warrant (number of people and dates and information requested, etc.) must be supported by probable cause and fit inside the framework of our constitutional rights, etc.

For example, they knew about BK by the date of those warrants, but could not get a warrant for his phone b/c no PC, so if they couldn't get that, they sure couldn't get a warrant based on a tip or an Elantra for a group of drivers imo jmo.

it's not jmo, but imo jmo, if you read the links I provided, you'll see what I mean. It is complicated, but I hope that law review link helps. I always appreciate your posts, and I see your deep dives here (that's why I'm here, too), but in this case, that warrant is about far more imo jmo and it's not just what it's about - LE needs to be able to get the warrant based on PC. I can think of many cases where imo jmo, we have reason to believe who did it, but LE either can't arrest or go to trial because not enough evidence.

I'm never sure what the lines are between speculation vs application of known facts within a logical framework, and I don't want to cause the mods any trouble cleaning up my mistakes, so I will skip my ideas here, but suffice to say that my theories are based on times of warrants, scope of warrants, facts we do know, and my own experience and education.

all of this is imo jmo. and I edited to add a bunch of imo jmo :)
 
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With all the mistakes made outside the house, how could he be so meticulous inside the house?
Factor in that it was done in such a small window of time and with at least one victim fighting back (if not more). I believe there will be more evidence inside the house that hasn't been included in the PCA.

MOO
SPECULATION/theory below

My theory on that is that planning a crime of this time was an every day obsession for BK. He was incorporating more and more of his knowledge about crime into his theorized "perfect crime." I have interviewed many non-murderers (people in jail for attempted murder; serial rape; breaking and entering, etc) and many of them fantasized about homicide/larger crimes. Indeed, even so-called petty criminals (the ones who sneak onto people's porches and steal packages) are often thinking about other crimes.

BK was thinking about crime, all the time. It is my view, based solely on what SG said before he quieted down, that the murderer in this case researched and practiced how to use a knife and how to use a knife in such a way as to eliminate screaming and to minimize blood spatter (as SG says, KG's wounds were large slash wounds; he says the coroner says that "slash" was a better term than "stab.") What the slash method accomplishes is rapid blood loss (some of it initially into the inside of the body, particularly the lung injuries) but it also results in less splatter. Choosing the lungs and the liver results in way less arterial blood spurt to the outside of the body, if the killer knows at all what he's doing (checked where the liver and lungs are and memorized a little anatomy).

Did he make his decision to act out his criminal fantasy as he left Pullman that night, angry and probably enraged by recent difficulties at school? He had readied his car weeks or months before? While he thought his plan would keep himself mostly unbloodied, surely he had to plan what to do about the car?

One scenario that fits quite a few facts in this case is that he did indeed murder MM while she was still in bed. Whether KG was there initially or not, we do not know (and we also don't know if she owned or rented her furniture in her room or was just using what came with the house). If KG came in as BK was murdering MM, then her wounds would be different as she would not have been beneath the bed covers and completely on the mattress. We don't know these details.

If, as so many believe (including SG, apparently, who knows more than we do), KG was actually sleeping in the same bed as MM, then he has both victims where he wants them - underneath blankets/comforters and on a big blood-absorbing mattress.

Squeamish people might want to stop reading here.

Sure, eventually, there would be blood dripping from the mattress, but initially, arterial blood spurt from the lung wounds would have been mostly contained by bedding. The Marine training videos and written materials on how to use this type of knife to kill indicate that leaning on the knife (plunging, not stabbing) is most effective and the least bloodying for the killer.

So he's wearing some kind of coverall, easy to remove rubber-soled shoes, and has a trash bag in the trunk of his car. Or a trash bag on the ground near his car. He didn't count on Xana fighting him off, but so far, we have heard of no mention of cuts to the visible parts of his body (we don't know why he went to the doctor or what parts she saw). Like everyone else, I hope he needed wound car items from Albertson's, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

He's wearing a mask and likely a beanie or something. Each victim is incapacitated and dying within 15-20 seconds of his attack. As far as we know, Xana is the only one on the floor - and so, her blood is not being absorbed by the mattress. It's likely her blood that was on his one foot. He also apparently spoke to her and had to attack without her being asleep/lying down/nearly asleep.

So I hope that Xana will be the one whose blood is found in the car.

I do think he was more methodical (I have a hard time with the word "meticulous" for any bloody murder) inside the house, but had some kind of system rigged for keeping potential blood evidence contained in his car. I hope his system failed.

Indeed, I think he's smart enough to have been double gloved (nitrile), taken off coveralls, shoes and socks if any (probably didn't wear any) and stuff them into a waiting garbage bag. If he's smart, he disposes of the two pairs of gloves in different places (and puts them in baggies?) and puts new gloves on to drive his car. The trash bag has to be somewhere (the trunk?) but the clothes and shoes inside contain very little blood. The blood on the shoe is already invisible to the naked eye.

I think he was very concerned not to get bloody and sadly, it's possible the car will yield less information than some have been speculating. So this is my counter-speculation. It is the digital forensics that are going to convict him, IMO.

Speculation. IMO.
 
You'll notice I didn't put quotes around "bloody mess." We can play semantics all day, but that would be off-topic, so I'll just leave this here and we can all interpret it how we wish. I don't believe "bloody mess" is inaccurate given this description from LE.

“The King Road residence contained a significant amount of blood from the victims including spatter and castoff (blood stain pattern resulting from blood drops released from object due to its motion) which, based on my training, makes it likely that this evidence was transferred to Kohberger’s person, clothing, or shoes.”


Do you have a link to back up that he left footprints? I said in my post that I'm only going by what we know to be facts. If it's a fact that he left footprints, then I'll reconsider, but otherwise, I'm only considering the facts atm.

I didn't say the entire house was a bloody mess. Maybe I should have said "part of the house was a bloody mess" or "parts of rooms were a bloody mess." Perhaps the hallways weren't, but I really think you're overanalyzing what I meant by bloody mess. JMO. The part about the sole of his shoe is eactly my point. How is it possible to stab 4 people in 15 minutes, have it be described by police on the scene as very bloody, and have "so little blood on the sole of his shoe that the print is invisible"? Exactly my point.

All just MOO.
RBBM:

Is it possible to determine/estimate the height of a perpetrator from castoff (probably not very scientific)?

Also, I imagine it would require a bit of upper body strength to accomplish 4 knife murders in less than 20 minutes (not even 5 minutes per victim :( ). This sounds like a strategic attack that requires fitness. When I saw the list of knives and several were itemized as "Operation Iraqi Freedom", "Vietnam", "OEF Afghanistan" for whatever reason, my hinky meter went up. (https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case...Order to Seal Redact - KA-BAR Knives Inc.pdf )

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, if there is a purchase history for any of these knives is that something LE might uncover with a warrant? Or is the purchase information (receipts) already available somewhere?
 
I agree he made all these errors and even more

However, I wonder something, had his DNA not have been located on the knife sheath, would he be 'getting away' with this crime right now?

Assuming he's guilty, did he really think he'd perpetrated something he could never be held accountable for? And was he nearly correct in that idea? Or would all the other evidence be enough to have tracked him?
I've posted previously quite a lot on that question. IMO, yes, probable cause for arrest would have existed and a judge would have signed off on an arrest warrant even if BK's dna had not been found on the button of the knife sheathe. If BK had not left the sheathe,IMO LE would have still identified him via the car and investigated to end up with everything else that is in the PCA. MOO

If you're interested, I've attached the Court and LE docs related to the BK's WA residence search warrant. My opinion was partially informed by The State's Supplemental Disclosure Regarding the DNA (bottom of p14-15) and the Judge's response p6).

 
Just reading more closely through your post. I completely missed the affidavit part (with exhibits) mentioned in the order to seal. Still reading......

MOO
imo jmo I think that's a point that is missed often in this, and unless you're really familiar, easy to overlook, but if you look at the arrest warrant and pc affidavit, you'll see how they fit together. Now here we are, piecing together warrants without the supporting affidavits. it's like doing a puzzle already missing some pieces and with most of the picture torn off the box, and imo jmo this case is a particular challenge. life is hard and often unfair.
 
imo jmo I think that's a point that is missed often in this, and unless you're really familiar, easy to overlook, but if you look at the arrest warrant and pc affidavit, you'll see how they fit together. Now here we are, piecing together warrants without the supporting affidavits. it's like doing a puzzle already missing some pieces and with most of the picture torn off the box, and imo jmo this case is a particular challenge. life is hard and often unfair.
Just being pedantic, as your comment is probably tongue in cheek! BBM Except that it is fair that the affadavits and details of inventory are sealed for all the reasons mentioned in the motions to seal and redact and the Judge's rulings. MOO
 
Relative to other criminals, including some LE types guilty of crimes, I really don't think BK was as stupid as some do. MOO. I mean, the house was a bloody mess according to LE, yet there was only ONE partial footprint? How did that happen?
RB&SBM

This is something that has consistently bothered me.

from pg 5 https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case...it - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett-Payne.pdf

"a latent shoe print" during the "second processing of the crime scene"


although imo jmo LE probably did not include all evidence in the PCA, there would be no reason to exclude a full print in the document, esp since 1) it was sealed and 2) discovery. imo jmo 'keeping a secret to build their case' would not work and a full print with shoe type would be much more convincing for the warrant, esp for WA state courts where a higher expectation of privacy is provided by the state constitution.


In addition, one could argue imo jmo that a partial print would not be enough to support DM's story. In fact, if that is all LE had, imo jmo the defense might bring that up during trial. this is of course all imo jmo
 
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, if there is a purchase history for any of these knives is that something LE might uncover with a warrant? Or is the purchase information (receipts) already available somewhere?

imo jmo totally imo jmo but if they had a receipt, they could have gotten it from the seller. imo jmo and only that, LE first investigated the old-fashioned way, and when that didn't produce anything, they probably picked the biggest sellers of K-bar knives, and based on the sheath, the fact that there were no local sellers identified, no weapon at the scene, etc, got the warrants for online sellers by stating how much commerce is done online, that in the officer's experience weapons are bought online, this window of time makes sense, etc.

 
imo jmo totally imo jmo but if they had a receipt, they could have gotten it from the seller. imo jmo and only that, LE first investigated the old-fashioned way, and when that didn't produce anything, they probably picked the biggest sellers of K-bar knives, and based on the sheath, the fact that there were no local sellers identified, no weapon at the scene, etc, got the warrants for online sellers by stating how much commerce is done online, that in the officer's experience weapons are bought online, this window of time makes sense, etc.

Thank you! I keep forgetting that most of my questions already have answers (a naive question at that). There had been so much discussion earlier on that I personally was not involved in, therefore I'm late to the party lol.
 
DBM, repetitive.
 
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RBBM:

Is it possible to determine/estimate the height of a perpetrator from castoff (probably not very scientific)?

Also, I imagine it would require a bit of upper body strength to accomplish 4 knife murders in less than 20 minutes (not even 5 minutes per victim :( ). This sounds like a strategic attack that requires fitness. When I saw the list of knives and several were itemized as "Operation Iraqi Freedom", "Vietnam", "OEF Afghanistan" for whatever reason, my hinky meter went up. (https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - KA-BAR Knives Inc.pdf )

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, if there is a purchase history for any of these knives is that something LE might uncover with a warrant? Or is the purchase information (receipts) already available somewhere?
btw, I think these are all great points, and imo jmo based on research, yes re the castoff. I'm not sure what I can link here, but if you google, there's lots blood spatter can tell us imo jmo and from disturbing searches. @BeginnerSleuther, you're a physician, can you share any info about how someone who didn't have skill at this would be able to do it?

And imo jmo because I've never done it, it does seem like it would be hard to murder 4 people with a knife, 5 minutes (if that, we don't know that he started right away) per victim, with at least one fighting back, and then scoot on home (walk to car, peel out, etc.) For one thing, just the shock of having done it, esp if it were your first time... IDK, though
 
Thank you! I keep forgetting that most of my questions already have answers (a naive question at that). There had been so much discussion earlier on that I personally was not involved in, therefore I'm late to the party lol.

I thought it was a good question, actually :) editing to add that since the affidavits are sealed, the possible argument for getting the warrant is just based on imo jmo ime and what is in the other warrants of a similar nature. my answer should in no way be considered anything other than uneducated guess :)
 
respectfully, though, if you read the links provided, you'll see they cannot invade the privacy of all drivers because of one driver; owning an elantra is not PC; even a Dasher who drove an Elantra is not PC without something else, like being at the time and place of the murders; they cannot single out many for one, etc. The scope of the warrant (number of people and dates and information requested, etc.) must be supported by probable cause and fit inside the framework of our constitutional rights, etc.

For example, they knew about BK by the date of those warrants, but could not get a warrant for his phone b/c no PC, so if they couldn't get that, they sure couldn't get a warrant based on a tip or an Elantra for a group of drivers imo jmo.

it's not jmo, but imo jmo, if you read the links I provided, you'll see what I mean. It is complicated, but I hope that law review link helps. I always appreciate your posts, and I see your deep dives here (that's why I'm here, too), but in this case, that warrant is about far more imo jmo and it's not just what it's about - LE needs to be able to get the warrant based on PC. I can think of many cases where imo jmo, we have reason to believe who did it, but LE either can't arrest or go to trial because not enough evidence.

I'm never sure what the lines are between speculation vs application of known facts within a logical framework, and I don't want to cause the mods any trouble cleaning up my mistakes, so I will skip my ideas here, but suffice to say that my theories are based on times of warrants, scope of warrants, facts we do know, and my own experience and education.

all of this is imo jmo. and I edited to add a bunch of imo jmo :)
Just curious why LE, being told that Kaylee believed/said she had a stalker, and knowing that one of the residents ordered food from doordash to be delivered at 4am, wouldn't be able to get a search warrant to search all orders and drivers and communications going back for months, just to see if there was any kind of a pattern they could establish, ie a certain (unknown to them at the time of the warrant) driver may have had more than the usual number of deliveries to that address, or more communication with the ordering party, or whatever. And at the same time, see if there are recurrences with a specific vehicle, etc. Doesn't LE have to start somewhere? Wouldn't a judge stamp that type of warrant?
 
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I agree he made all these errors and even more

However, I wonder something, had his DNA not have been located on the knife sheath, would he be 'getting away' with this crime right now?

Assuming he's guilty, did he really think he'd perpetrated something he could never be held accountable for? And was he nearly correct in that idea? Or would all the other evidence be enough to have tracked him?


I think it's interesting to contemplate if there would have been enough PC for an Arrest Warrant without the DNA.

It doesn't look like they needed the DNA for the Search Warrants.

it looks like the Search Warrants were based on:

1.) Witness description - BK fit Mortensen's description according to Officer Payne
2.) Bryan driving a White Elantra
3.) Cell tower records using Bryan's phone number

I'm confused though. It looks like the PC for Search Warrant is also the PC for Arrest Warrant?

If so, then the DNA isn't even listed to make the arrest.

I can't quite get this figured out.
 
Just curious why LE, being told that Kaylee had a stalker, and knowing that one of the residents ordered food from doordash to be delivered at 4am, wouldn't be able to get a search warrant to search all orders and drivers and communications going back for months, just to see if there was any kind of a pattern they could establish, ie a certain (unknown to them at the time of the warrant) driver may have had more than the usual number of deliveries to that address, or more communication with the ordering party, or whatever. And at the same time, see if there are recurrences with a specific vehicle, etc. Doesn't LE have to start somewhere? Wouldn't a judge stamp that type of warrant?
Investigation is one thing. Warrant is another. LE doesn't get warrants just to investigate. They would have investigated to get PC to get a warrant. Warrants must weigh personal rights v need to know (gross oversimplification). It really is a complex thing, but the links I provided should help, I hope. Warrants aren't 'starting somewhere'. Geofencing is different, but the link really explains that well, too. for some, 4A isn't something to read about on a Sunday afternoon, but I think that law review piece is interesting any day of the week, if you're interested in knowing more about warrants.

A bit of an aside, but if you want to read an interesting book, and the difficulty getting a warrant, read Unmasked by Paul Holes. Or watch Zodiac (one of my favs). Although it's Hollywood, it's based on the true story.
 
btw, I think these are all great points, and imo jmo based on research, yes re the castoff. I'm not sure what I can link here, but if you google, there's lots blood spatter can tell us imo jmo and from disturbing searches. @BeginnerSleuther, you're a physician, can you share any info about how someone who didn't have skill at this would be able to do it?

And imo jmo because I've never done it, it does seem like it would be hard to murder 4 people with a knife, 5 minutes (if that, we don't know that he started right away) per victim, with at least one fighting back, and then scoot on home (walk to car, peel out, etc.) For one thing, just the shock of having done it, esp if it were your first time... IDK, though
RBBM

Thank you again! My tactic is to ask the naive, more obvious questions as their answers often narrow things down and point to the truth :cool:

Right?! Is there not also some kind of physical, hormonal or physiological change that occurs after someone commits murder? I cannot imagine that many people (even the worst SKs) commit this kind of crime without having some kind of bad reaction or psychological effect. Especially for someone who hasn't killed before, you'd think they'd be shaking all the way home, sweating, tossing their cookies :oops:
 
I've had to skim the thread lately, so I apologize if this has been covered.

But let's speculate that neighboring cameras (maybe the one we already know about, or maybe others we haven't heard about yet) showed frequent visits during 2022 to King Rd. by a white Elantra-ish car.

Rather than suspecting doordash drivers of the crime, couldn't LE request their records in order to EXCLUDE from suspicion all the identified deliveries, leaving x number of other vehicle approaches to be considered as possibly the murderer casing the place?
 
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btw, I think these are all great points, and imo jmo based on research, yes re the castoff. I'm not sure what I can link here, but if you google, there's lots blood spatter can tell us imo jmo and from disturbing searches. @BeginnerSleuther, you're a physician, can you share any info about how someone who didn't have skill at this would be able to do it?

And imo jmo because I've never done it, it does seem like it would be hard to murder 4 people with a knife, 5 minutes (if that, we don't know that he started right away) per victim, with at least one fighting back, and then scoot on home (walk to car, peel out, etc.) For one thing, just the shock of having done it, esp if it were your first time... IDK, though
The Las Vegas stabbing attack in October last year only took a few minutes. The victims were all awake and alert, surrounded by other people, and the killer was more disorganised as he was experiencing a mental health episode. He was also using a chef knife, rather than a K-Bar or other military style knife with a hilt. He killed two and injured 6 - 8 people.

2022 Las Vegas Strip stabbings - Wikipedia

The perpetrator in this case used stealth, had a knife fit for purpose, attacked in the dark, attacked victims who were mostly asleep or not alert because of the hour and the fact that they were in their own home, and had, as far as we know, no mental illness or intoxication to get in the way of his movements or planning.

Not that hard.

MOO
 
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