IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[FrostedGlass]

I suspect SC has changed their user agreement over the years. Here's a Google quote dated Jan 14, 2017; apparently one could send stuff to strangers back then.

Is it safe to give snap to strangers?
Remind Them to Never Snap with Strangers. Although it might seem harmless to snap someone you don't know, people can be whomever they choose on the internet. It's possible for people to send pictures of other people – even people your kids may know – and claim to be that person.Jan 14, 2017

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I suspect SC has changed their user agreement over the years. Here's a Google quote dated Jan 14, 2017; apparently one could send stuff to strangers back then.

Is it safe to give snap to strangers?
Remind Them to Never Snap with Strangers. Although it might seem harmless to snap someone you don't know, people can be whomever they choose on the internet. It's possible for people to send pictures of other people – even people your kids may know – and claim to be that person.Jan 14, 2017

I believe this is just advice and not a change of function or user agreement. The important point is, each Snapchat account is not open to view by everyone on the internet, you can't search for a person and then see their post, they must deliberately include you to receive the snap, either individually or include you in a group that is selected to see the message that there is a snap posted. Your Snapchat contact would have to show on their account. The victim did not send out a photo of the bridge and then go into her Snapchat and delete a contact. Stranger or not, Snapchat only alerts other connected Snapchat accounts of a posting. Again, LE has the phone and has investigated this. MOO

 

[TL4S]

LE has certainly examined and followed up on everything found on the phone. (Only 1 victim had owned/had a phone.)
There may be SM that hasn't been disclosed but if there was evidence of other "catfish" type contact, it's been investigated. Otherwise, the victims' SM activity is really not something I expected to be made public. They deserve privacy even in death.
Since the Snapchat post was openly discussed, why wouldn't any other SM that revealed their plans that day be talked about? I think the victims didn't know days in advance that they would be going to the bridge that day. They know of phone calls and SM contacts/posts, I don't think there is a well-hidden, undiscoverable connection that led to RA knowing they would be there that day. MOO

I don't think L's SM should be made public, nor do I believe there were any well-hidden, undiscoverable connections. And yes, LE knows what's on L's phone, her cloud, etc., and hopefully investigated everyone and everything there.

I know many people dismiss this because it was stated before RA's arrest, but KG said this at CrimeCon 2022:

Sister of Delphi murder victim heartbroken over secret online chats

Describing her emotions when she found out that Libby had kept the online chats secret from her, Kelsi said: “In the beginning, I was super angry when they first released it and law enforcement officially told us they think it’s social media and that’s what they’re looking at."

From the Dec. 2021 a_shots release, then the Yellow release, to KG's statement above, known investigation into the catfishing, and NMcL saying others might be involved, I don't know why it is so unreasonable to at least consider that there might still be a SM connection. Maybe RA's arrest did completely change that, I certainly don't know. I'm just keeping an open mind in a case I know only a marginal fraction about.

 

[TL4S]

I suspect SC has changed their user agreement over the years. Here's a Google quote dated Jan 14, 2017; apparently one could send stuff to strangers back then.

Is it safe to give snap to strangers?
Remind Them to Never Snap with Strangers. Although it might seem harmless to snap someone you don't know, people can be whomever they choose on the internet. It's possible for people to send pictures of other people – even people your kids may know – and claim to be that person.Jan 14, 2017

I might have misunderstood, but I thought L posted the bridge photos on her SC Story, which if set to public, can be viewed by anyone, if they're looking. Do you recall?

 

[FrostedGlass]

I might have misunderstood, but I thought L posted the bridge photos on her SC Story, which if set to public, can be viewed by anyone, if they're looking. Do you recall?

No, I don't remember.

 

[Gemmie]

I might have misunderstood, but I thought L posted the bridge photos on her SC Story, which if set to public, can be viewed by anyone, if they're looking. Do you recall?

I don't know what a SC (Snapchat?) Story is, but Libby posted the last photo taken of Abby to her Snapchat account according to the timeline. I do not recall hearing that she posted the video, or pics of BG from that short vid she made of him. I'm just aware of the 1 pic.

2:07 p.m. Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat account showing Abby walking across the old railroad bridge.
This was the last time anyone heard from the girls.

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I don't think L's SM should be made public, nor do I believe there were any well-hidden, undiscoverable connections. And yes, LE knows what's on L's phone, her cloud, etc., and hopefully investigated everyone and everything there.

I know many people dismiss this because it was stated before RA's arrest, but KG said this at CrimeCon 2022:

Sister of Delphi murder victim heartbroken over secret online chats

Describing her emotions when she found out that Libby had kept the online chats secret from her, Kelsi said: “In the beginning, I was super angry when they first released it and law enforcement officially told us they think it’s social media and that’s what they’re looking at."

From the Dec. 2021 a_shots release, then the Yellow release, to KG's statement above, known investigation into the catfishing, and NMcL saying others might be involved, I don't know why it is so unreasonable to at least consider that there might still be a SM connection. Maybe RA's arrest did completely change that, I certainly don't know. I'm just keeping an open mind in a case I know only a marginal fraction about.

Again, one of her friends alerted the family about the bridge. That is why they focused the first search there. The photo was not viewable to the public. Edit to add about the photo, her friends "heard from her" due to receiving a message that she had posted a snap. "This was the last time anyone heard from the girls."

What's the difference between my story and my story on Snapchat?
Public Profiles have a Public Story which is separate from your My Story. Your followers will see the Stories posted to your Public Story in the Subscription section of their Stories page.


In 2022, KG was describing her emotional reaction in 2017, soon after the murders. At that time, it appeared they assumed were specifically targeted and SM let a killer know where they would be that afternoon, thus the "Snapchat murders" headline.

The issue I have is with the persistent misinformation saying that their location was known by RA, KAK or anyone else. Pointing this out seems unpopular, and what the prosecutor says, in order to not have information about the case made public, is not really believable to me. I'll go with the statements by DC, BG is the killer and it won't hurt anything to release the PCA a short time after RA's arrest.
But someone else being involved or not, is a different issue than a claim that their location being known is what led the killer to them. There is nothing to show that RA, like many similar killers, wasn't walking about, already dressed and ready, searching for the right opportunity and victim.

 

[TL4S]

In 2022, KG was describing her emotional reaction in 2017, soon after the murders. At that time, it appeared they assumed were specifically targeted and SM let a killer know where they would be that afternoon, thus the "Snapchat murders" headline.

Perhaps I'm interpreting it incorrectly, but in 2022, KG was describing how she felt when she learned of L's communications with a_shots, which they were not aware of until just before the rest of us in Dec. 2021. On the night the girls were missing, KG had seen that L communicated with a_shots at some point prior to when they went missing, so she reached out to see if he had heard from them, but otherwise, L's family didn't know of the other communications. So her statement to The Sun at CrimeCon in 2022 was in regards to learning about KAK/a_shots only a few months prior, not back in 2017. I'm reading it as LE told her they were looking at SM in Dec. 2021. It's just my opinion, of course. I'm not trying to misinform anyone on anything. JMO.

Sister of Delphi murder victim heartbroken over secret online chats

It left Libby’s family - who had previously been skeptical of claims that social media played a role in the killings - in deep shock.

Speaking at the Crimecon true crime convention in Las Vegas, Kelsi told The Sun: “I was heartbroken because Libby was my best friend and she told me everything, I thought.

“I had to come to terms with the fact that this is something she kept from me.

“It was something she didn't want me to know because she knew what my opinion would be, she knew that I would tell her it's not safe and I would tell her not to do it.

“So she didn't tell me and I never had any clue. I never had any idea. She kept it hidden really well from all of us.”

Describing her emotions when she found out that Libby had kept the online chats secret from her, Kelsi said: “In the beginning, I was super angry when they first released it and law enforcement officially told us they think it’s social media and that’s what they’re looking at.

 

[sunshineray]

LE has certainly examined and followed up on everything found on the phone. (Only 1 victim had owned/had a phone.)
There may be SM that hasn't been disclosed but if there was evidence of other "catfish" type contact, it's been investigated. Otherwise, the victims' SM activity is really not something I expected to be made public. They deserve privacy even in death.
Since the Snapchat post was openly discussed, why wouldn't any other SM that revealed their plans that day be talked about? I think the victims didn't know days in advance that they would be going to the bridge that day. They know of phone calls and SM contacts/posts, I don't think there is a well-hidden, undiscoverable connection that led to RA knowing they would be there that day. MOO

Was a phone listed in RL's search warrant along with possible articles of clothing (alluding that these were possibly from the victims)? That's the thought I got when reading it...oh maybe AW did also have a phone. I know her Mom said she didn't but kids sometimes find a way. She wouldn't have needed a plan to use it on wifi

 

[sunshineray]

Again, one of her friends alerted the family about the bridge. That is why they focused the first search there. The photo was not viewable to the public. Edit to add about the photo, her friends "heard from her" due to receiving a message that she had posted a snap. "This was the last time anyone heard from the girls."

What's the difference between my story and my story on Snapchat?
Public Profiles have a Public Story which is separate from your My Story. Your followers will see the Stories posted to your Public Story in the Subscription section of their Stories page.


In 2022, KG was describing her emotional reaction in 2017, soon after the murders. At that time, it appeared they assumed were specifically targeted and SM let a killer know where they would be that afternoon, thus the "Snapchat murders" headline.

The issue I have is with the persistent misinformation saying that their location was known by RA, KAK or anyone else. Pointing this out seems unpopular, and what the prosecutor says, in order to not have information about the case made public, is not really believable to me. I'll go with the statements by DC, BG is the killer and it won't hurt anything to release the PCA a short time after RA's arrest.
But someone else being involved or not, is a different issue than a claim that their location being known is what led the killer to them. There is nothing to show that RA, like many similar killers, wasn't walking about, already dressed and ready, searching for the right opportunity and victim.

Out of KAK's fingers (or someone else who had access), via anthony-shots account and confirmed in KAK's 196 page redacted interrogation, a meet up was made for that day with LG. That shouldn't be dismissed as not happening. Exactly what the back and forth conversation of LG and anthony_shots was is unknown to us at this time but I believe it did happen and therefore it's a strong possibility at least one person knew the girls would be there that day and at that time.
AJMO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Out of KAK's fingers (or someone else who had access), via anthony-shots account and confirmed in KAK's 196 page redacted interrogation, a meet up was made for that day with LG. That shouldn't be dismissed as not happening. Exactly what the back and forth conversation of LG and anthony_shots was is unknown to us at this time but I believe it did happen and therefore it's a strong possibility at least one person knew the girls would be there that day and at that time.
AJMO

They asked him and he denied it. And they waited more than 3 years to ask, in the most watched murder investigation in Indiana history?

I don't think LE was incompetent and didn't follow up on something for 3 years, (except maybe the RA thing). I think it's obvious that they were hoping that he could have had an unknown link to a killer, that he told someone about the girls and didn't realize it got them killed. I agree with the FBI agent that called it a "Hail Mary". They were/had been at a dead end in the investigation. But if KAK never knew about the plans, he didn't tell anyone.

There is nothing showing the girls planned a trip to the park in advance and that is not what the sister said. There is no evidence that any device except a phone was used for SM for the victims. The previous contact, when the most recent contact is provable on a phone, does not equal a "strong possibility" that someone knew they would be there. MOO

There is no proof/confirmation offered in the interrogation that there was a meet-up planned and there is no confirmation that any meet-up was arranged in writing, via the anthony shots account. You are interpreting accusations and questions to be facts as though they were stated about the case by LE. They have her phone, but there is nothing on her phone showing they had contact that day or the day before, they would have confronted him with proof rather than by what someone told them, the hearsay of an unnamed person said that he said (after the murders) "oh we were supposed to meet up", not even "we were supposed to meet up on the bridge/park on the day of the murders". MOO
The interrogation has been discussed so many times, is it not accepted and well-known that LE is not limited by the truth, to known provable facts in interrogations/investigations? MOO

Retired FBI agent on Kegan Kline transcript: 'This interview looked to me a little bit like a Hail Mary'

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — I-Team 8 continues to dig into the shocking discovery obtained by I-Team 8 surrounding the Delphi murders. It’s a story we first reported Thursday on WISHTV.com and it involves new evidence police might have in the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German. On Friday, I-Team...

www.wishtv.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

They asked him and he denied it. And they waited more than 3 years to ask, in the most watched murder investigation in Indiana history?

I don't think LE was incompetent and didn't follow up on something for 3 years, (except maybe the RA thing). I think it's obvious that they were hoping that he could have had an unknown link to a killer, that he told someone about the girls and didn't realize it got them killed. I agree with the FBI agent that called it a "Hail Mary". They were/had been at a dead end in the investigation. But if KAK never knew about the plans, he didn't tell anyone.

There is nothing showing the girls planned a trip to the park in advance and that is not what the sister said. There is no evidence that any device except a phone was used for SM for the victims. The previous contact, when the most recent contact is provable on a phone, does not equal a "strong possibility" that someone knew they would be there. MOO

There is no proof/confirmation offered in the interrogation that there was a meet-up planned and there is no confirmation that any meet-up was arranged in writing, via the anthony shots account. You are interpreting accusations and questions to be facts as though they were stated about the case by LE. They have her phone, but there is nothing on her phone showing they had contact that day or the day before, they would have confronted him with proof rather than by what someone told them, the hearsay of an unnamed person said that he said (after the murders) "oh we were supposed to meet up", not even "we were supposed to meet up on the bridge/park on the day of the murders". MOO
The interrogation has been discussed so many times, is it not accepted and well-known that LE is not limited by the truth, to known provable facts in interrogations/investigations? MOO

Retired FBI agent on Kegan Kline transcript: 'This interview looked to me a little bit like a Hail Mary'

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — I-Team 8 continues to dig into the shocking discovery obtained by I-Team 8 surrounding the Delphi murders. It’s a story we first reported Thursday on WISHTV.com and it involves new evidence police might have in the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German. On Friday, I-Team...

www.wishtv.com

I always find your posts interesting; I wish I had your certainty.

Every day I come to this case, I'm reminded of how little we know. LE has, from the beginning, only shown us exactly what they want us to see and when they wanted us to see it. So I always wonder how much they have that they don't want us to see.

One has to wonder why they waited so long to reveal a_shots connection and then the Yellow ask months later. Were they sitting on this information all that time or didn't they discover it until just before the release?
It took LE about a year and a half to catch extortionist Brian Kil; he had many identities and many FB accounts. He used Tor and other methods to avoid LE, shutting each account down when he was done with that person. He hacked into his victims' cloud accts, learned everything about them. They only caught him because he got careless. That was in 2016-2017.

We really have no idea what LE knows and when they knew it. On Oct. 23, 2017, the court ordered Apple to assist Becky Patty in the recovery data from all of Libby's iCloud accts. Did she ever say if they cooperated?
Case # 08C01-1710-ES-000002

 

[somequestions]

It surprised me when Richard Allen was being interviewed by police he did not think to himself that he was the only male out on the trails that day during the period of time Abigail Williams and Liberty German went missing. He was the only male in that section of the trail when the girls went missing too.

What is amazing is that after the picture and video of the bridge guy came out, Richard Allen could not come up with a better story for police. He had over 5 and a half years to think of a better explanation.

Most people will conclude that criminals are not that bright and that in this case it was overconfidence in not getting caught that led to Richard Allen's arrest. I suppose the sketches had something to do with that.

I can only conclude that with the clothes being described in the PCA as muddy and bloody, investigators recovered some sort of forensic evidence from Richard Allen's blue Carhartt jacket. But a Carhartt jacket is not the same as a blue windbreaker. In my opinion, the person in the video is wearing a blue windbreaker that possibly shows the outline of a gun. Would a person wearing a blue Carhartt jacket look the same way on video?

 

[Falling Down]

It surprised me when Richard Allen was being interviewed by police he did not think to himself that he was the only male out on the trails that day during the period of time Abigail Williams and Liberty German went missing. He was the only male in that section of the trail when the girls went missing too.

What is amazing is that after the picture and video of the bridge guy came out, Richard Allen could not come up with a better story for police. He had over 5 and a half years to think of a better explanation.

Most people will conclude that criminals are not that bright and that in this case it was overconfidence in not getting caught that led to Richard Allen's arrest. I suppose the sketches had something to do with that.

I can only conclude that with the clothes being described in the PCA as muddy and bloody, investigators recovered some sort of forensic evidence from Richard Allen's blue Carhartt jacket. But a Carhartt jacket is not the same as a blue windbreaker. In my opinion, the person in the video is wearing a blue windbreaker that possibly shows the outline of a gun. Would a person wearing a blue Carhartt jacket look the same way on video?

I've thought similarly about the time in question that day. It would have been a normal work day for most working adults, during the time in question how many middle-aged males were there, alone? All indications are RA was the only middle-aged male there alone between 1 and 4 PM.

Why this didn't stick out to LE, and why he wasn't a prime suspect early on, I guess we'll never know.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

They asked him and he denied it. And they waited more than 3 years to ask, in the most watched murder investigation in Indiana history?

I don't think LE was incompetent and didn't follow up on something for 3 years, (except maybe the RA thing). I think it's obvious that they were hoping that he could have had an unknown link to a killer, that he told someone about the girls and didn't realize it got them killed. I agree with the FBI agent that called it a "Hail Mary". They were/had been at a dead end in the investigation. But if KAK never knew about the plans, he didn't tell anyone.

There is nothing showing the girls planned a trip to the park in advance and that is not what the sister said. There is no evidence that any device except a phone was used for SM for the victims. The previous contact, when the most recent contact is provable on a phone, does not equal a "strong possibility" that someone knew they would be there. MOO

There is no proof/confirmation offered in the interrogation that there was a meet-up planned and there is no confirmation that any meet-up was arranged in writing, via the anthony shots account. You are interpreting accusations and questions to be facts as though they were stated about the case by LE. They have her phone, but there is nothing on her phone showing they had contact that day or the day before, they would have confronted him with proof rather than by what someone told them, the hearsay of an unnamed person said that he said (after the murders) "oh we were supposed to meet up", not even "we were supposed to meet up on the bridge/park on the day of the murders". MOO
The interrogation has been discussed so many times, is it not accepted and well-known that LE is not limited by the truth, to known provable facts in interrogations/investigations? MOO

Retired FBI agent on Kegan Kline transcript: 'This interview looked to me a little bit like a Hail Mary'

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — I-Team 8 continues to dig into the shocking discovery obtained by I-Team 8 surrounding the Delphi murders. It’s a story we first reported Thursday on WISHTV.com and it involves new evidence police might have in the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German. On Friday, I-Team...

www.wishtv.com

There was a statement made by LE quoting Libby's friend saying that the anthony_shots account said to her, after she asked them, did you hear about what happened to Libby?...anthony_shots account replied, I was suppose to meet up with her (Libby) and she never showed up.

Just that, IMO, implies that anthony_shots account knew where LG was going to be that day.
AJMO

 

[MistyWaters]

There was a statement made by LE quoting Libby's friend saying that the anthony_shots account said to her, after she asked them, did you hear about what happened to Libby?...anthony_shots account replied, I was suppose to meet up with her (Libby) and she never showed up.

Just that, IMO, implies that anthony_shots account knew where LG was going to be that day.
AJMO

It doesn’t imply anything as no meetup location is mentioned.

Considering the girls ages, not being old enough to drive, how could’ve they planned to meet KAK at a certain time and place? And if he was involved in their deaths, why would he make this statement to link himself to the murders?

I see him to be the kind of attention seeker who sensationalizes and personalizes happenings by placing himself on the fringes. I think most of us knows somebody like that……a horrible accident, a house fire, any sort of tragedy XXXX just happened to be driving by at the time. As we already know his word means nothing, why are we stuck on that statement being honest and truthful, but his denial to LE is not?

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

There was a statement made by LE quoting Libby's friend saying that the anthony_shots account said to her, after she asked them, did you hear about what happened to Libby?...anthony_shots account replied, I was suppose to meet up with her (Libby) and she never showed up.

Just that, IMO, implies that anthony_shots account knew where LG was going to be that day.
AJMO

I disagree and again, LE made no such statement, the closest thing to it was an accusation. Quoting hearsay during an interrogation is not making a statement of fact to the public. Was this announced by LE at some other time that I'm not aware of?

What is your opinion about interrogations? Do some believe that LE doesn't use and/or isn't allowed to use tactics in interrogations and only makes proven facts-based accusations/questions?

They served a search warrant and interrogated and polygraphed KAK on Feb 25, 2017. Got a DNA sample and took him home. They already knew of the illegal activities and the anthony shots account less than 10 days after the murders. It wasn't new information for the 2020 interrogation.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[sunshineray]

It doesn’t imply anything as no meetup location is mentioned.

Considering the girls ages, not being old enough to drive, how could’ve they planned to meet KAK at a certain time and place? And if he was involved in their deaths, why would he make this statement to link himself to the murders?

I see him to be the kind of attention seeker who sensationalizes and personalizes happenings by placing himself on the fringes. I think most of us knows somebody like that……a horrible accident, a house fire, any sort of tragedy XXXX just happened to be driving by at the time. As we already know his word means nothing, why are we stuck on that statement being honest and truthful, but his denial to LE is not?

I'm of a different mind concerning KAK. I think he is involved and not as bright as many seem to give him credit for being. Granted we know he lies but I really do believe there's a connection with the anthony_shots account and the murders. Right now we know for certain anthony_shots is KAK. How many others have used that account also is yet to be revealed by LE or the prosecutor. AJMO

 

[TheVisual]

There was a statement made by LE quoting Libby's friend saying that the anthony_shots account said to her, after she asked them, did you hear about what happened to Libby?...anthony_shots account replied, I was suppose to meet up with her (Libby) and she never showed up.

Just that, IMO, implies that anthony_shots account knew where LG was going to be that day.
AJMO

So maybe KAK really was at the gas station (as he said ) to meet her and Libby never showed. She went to MHB to walk the trails with Abby. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I disagree and again, LE made no such statement, the closest thing to it was an accusation. Quoting hearsay during an interrogation is not making a statement of fact to the public. Was this announced by LE at some other time that I'm not aware of?

What is your opinion about interrogations? Do some believe that LE doesn't use and/or isn't allowed to use tactics in interrogations and only makes proven facts-based accusations/questions?

They served a search warrant and interrogated and polygraphed KAK on Feb 25, 2017. Got a DNA sample and took him home. They already knew of the illegal activities and the anthony shots account less than 10 days after the murders. It wasn't new information for the 2020 interrogation.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

It's true LE can use many tactics during an interrogation. While reading the parts of KAK's interrogation that were released, I sensed the mood was truthful. That's how I percieved it. I saw side-stepping, flat out lies from KAK and then back-peddling. There also came a time when KAK's veil of denial came down and he basically said to the lone officer left in the room, (paraphrasing) if you think you can prove it, then prove it.

Taken as a whole, IMO, it implicates KAK heavily in being involved in not only catfishing LG but setting her up on a meet. Again, AJMO. We can agree to disagree.