4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[NCWatcher]

His tag and title was registered and still current in PA.

The murders took place late Sat early Sun 14th and he was right at the DMV on the 18th. Possible not related, not probable to me.

<snipped>

Bryan C. Kohberger, a suspect in the murders of four University of Idaho students, changed the title of his white 2015 Hyundai Elantra five days after the stabbings took place.
According to a public records request filed by KTVB, Kohberger, 28, applied to transfer the title of the Elantra from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, which was issued on April 20, 2022, to Whitman County, Washington, on Nov. 18, 2022. It was then issued Dec. 5, 2022. Records show the vehicle was also registered.

Moscow suspect Bryan Kohberger changed title of Hyundai Elantra five days after murders


MOO

Well, we know he wasn't "right at the DMV on the 18th." If he had been, he would have gotten his WA plate that day rather than it being mailed to him about 3 weeks later in Dec (as verified in the link above as well as in lots of MSM links I've posted such as this one Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger changed license plate five days after student slayings )

Here is the DMV link stating he would have gotten the plate that day had he gone to the DMV in person rather than handling the matter online and by mail. (The title had to be mailed.) WA State Licensing (DOL) Official Site: Register your vehicle

He also had to get a WA driver's license before registering his car in WA. DL fees in WA are very high. His PA plate was good until the end of Nov (not April. See PCA for verification of Nov expiration.) So it's not so clear that he was choosing to be foolish financially by waiting until Nov.

JMO

 

[jepop]

I think it was a compulsion; he couldn’t stop himself.

I agree there was very likely a large element of compulsion. MOO. Though that wouldn't necessarily stop him from planning out the murders - before, during and after, even if his plans went somewhat array on the night owing to an overload of compulsive emotions and thoughts. So not mutually exclusive. MOO

ETA: There even could have been alot of compulsivity in his planning, ie couldn't stop thinking about how and when. Just speculation. MOO

 

[al66pine]

1. Further Incriminating Evidence: Public Release? Pre-Trial? 2. Losing Battle?

Oh, ok. Thanks for clarifying !
Makes me wonder if there will be a revelation to the public of something much more incriminating, and if the defense knows they're fighting a losing battle ?

1. Could it happen? If so, person releasing info would be in violation of court's "gag order." There would be CONSEQUENCES for person (e.g., atty. disciplinary investigation & reprimand, censure?) and possibly re trial (e.g., change of venue?) Imo further "much more incriminating" evd. is unlikely to be released to gen. public pre-trial. US crim justice system provides for TRIALS by juries in courts to determine guilt BARD. And here a gag order is in place.

2. Atty's on ID. "Capital Roster" of PDs are experienced crim attys vetted & selected by a statewide commission to defend indigent defendants in DP cases (even tho legally & tech'ly, this is NOT a DP case, not ATM). Only ~ 33 attys in the state are on the list. The three of them working on BK's behalf are not fresh off the law school or bar exam boat.

Defense has been conducting own investigation since early days* and has received extensive discovery materials from prosecution and undoubtedly has a much better idea about the strength of the state's case, than gen. public does, and even more than avid & knowledgeable sleuths on this forum do.

Is def. fighting a losing battle? IDK.

"Slam dunks" happen on BASKETBALL courts, not criminal courts.

imo
_____________________________
* Someone help me out. Wasn't AT spotted & media-photographed at 1122 King, and inside the house, within a couple days of BK's arrest in PA?

 

[10ofRods]

Yesterday, I said that I thought Duck Duck Go (search engine) would not allow LE to see what a person searches and I think I am correct:

Is DuckDuckGo Safe? | What to know before making the switch

In this guide, we take a close look at DuckDuckGo who claim to provide services on par with Google, without stealing your data. But, is it safe? Find out here.

proprivacy.com

Duck + VPN would be virtually untraceable (although obviously, using a cellular phone to search would change that).

I am really interested to found out at trial what search engine BK used. Was he the digital expert he thought he was?

OTOH, if one is using Google Maps or Apple Maps (are there others?) then those location searches could be subpoenaed from Google. Unfortunately, Duck Duck Go is not as robust a search engine, IMO, as Google, so for academic purposes, it doesn't work as well. University computers most places won't allow changing search engine settings, but it will be interesting to learn what was on BK's phone and personal computer. Duck doesn't store searches linked to IP addresses, so it's useless to LE for finding out search queries of criminal defendants, as I understand it.

Part of me thinks that BK might have thought his searches would be interpreted as merely academic, criminology stuff. I think he planned with a view that he could not be caught.

IMO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Not really. We know the evidence used to get the arrest warrants. It isn't a secret bombshell; it's on the affidavit. They would have evidence we haven't seen for the Grand Jury, but even if they don't, the relatively little the public knows IMO is enough to say there needs to be a trial. Since the defense team did not present evidence to the GJ, I don't see why they wouldn't indict. IMO, it would be foolish to let BK just walk out jail without learning the other side of the story.

Thanks for pointing that out, I edited my post to delete the 2nd paragraph, since it wasn't referencing part of the unknown evidence, @U.N. Known

 

[jepop]

1. Further Incriminating Evidence: Public Release? Pre-Trial? 2. Losing Battle?


1. Could it happen? If so, person releasing info would be in violation of court's "gag order." There would be CONSEQUENCES for person (e.g., atty. disciplinary investigation & reprimand, censure?) and possibly re trial (e.g., change of venue?) Imo further "much more incriminating" evd. is unlikely to be released to gen. public pre-trial. US crim justice system provides for TRIALS by juries in courts to determine guilt BARD. And here a gag order is in place.

2. Atty's on ID. "Capital Roster" of PDs are experienced crim attys vetted & selected by a statewide commission to defend indigent defendants in DP cases (even tho legally & tech'ly, this is NOT a DP case, not ATM). Only ~ 33 attys in the state are on the list. The three of them working on BK's behalf are not fresh off the law school or bar exam boat.

Defense has been conducting own investigation since early days* and has received extensive discovery materials from prosecution and undoubtedly has a much better idea about the strength of the state's case, than gen. public does, and even more than avid & knowledgeable sleuths on this forum do.

Is def. fighting a losing battle? IDK.

"Slam dunks" happen on BASKETBALL courts, not criminal courts.

imo
_____________________________
* Someone help me out. Wasn't AT spotted & media-photographed at 1122 King, and inside the house, within a couple days of BK's arrest in PA?

RE AT at 1122 King Road? YES, she was,very early Jan. But can't point you anywhere but media thread.

EBM added word

 

[Cool Cats]

RE AT at 1122 King Road? YES, she was,very early Jan. But can't point you anywhere but media thread.

EBM added word

Anne Taylor in center​

Investigators visit the King Road crime scene on Jan. 3, 2023. The house was the scene of a quadruple homicide in November last year, the victims all being students at the University of Idaho. (Derek Shook for Fox News Digital)

Shocking court documents reveal police began suspecting Kohberger less than 2 weeks after Idaho murders

Newly obtained court documents reveal that authorities investigating the University of Idaho student killings had been keeping a close eye on suspect Bryan Kohberger well before his identity was released to the public.

www.fox13seattle.com

 

[Odeto BJ]

To help me make sense of clues I make timelines. Here's one I used to keep track of BK's days after the murders.
BK likely thought he was home-free having meticulously planned so well, at least for a while. I don't believe in coincidence so this helped me see what if any things were closely connected.

Excellent work. A couple questions to the group:

Has it ever been established that Ethan had taken to parking the family vehicle overnight at 1122 King? If BK did all the prior visits as nominally indicated by cellular connects, he would know what vehicles were associated with the house and barring BK acquiring very recent information about KG's car purchase, the set of vehicles parked at 1122 that early-AM was significantly different than that which would have been observed in prior visits. So allegedly he continued with the entry in spite of that variance?

Cool Cats indicated:
Final examinations began on Monday, December 12, 2022 to Friday, December 16, 2022...He would be extremely busy administering final exams as a TA and may have known he might not be back....

Respectfully: IIRC It was long planned that he would be departing Pullman Dec. 13; his father flew west on Dec. 12. MOO he was not too concerned about responsibilities during exam week....

Has anyone seen a recent Carfax for the Elantra? I can't find a reference but I thought there was an Inspection on Dec. 16 when the Elantra was serviced in PA. Was this a state inspection as required for registration renewal or transfer? Might be indicative that he already knew that he was not going back to WSU? Or that he was undertaking to sell the car in PA?

MOO: the meetings of Dec 7 and Dec 9 served to indicate to BK that he was not returning to WAZOO in January 2023. Or he was told that specifically. Either way: it would appear that his parents were not advised of that prior to possibly Dec. 16?

In spite of the gag order, this group knows a lot about the crime and the evidence...I hesitate to think how introspective and detailed and voluminous these posts would be if we had say, 3-times as much evidence to consider. I believe at this stage, that guess is the minimum measure of the evidence available to the prosecution. MOO.

 

[al66pine]

Maps Other Than Google or Apple?

.... OTOH, if one is using Google Maps or Apple Maps (are there others?) then those location searches could be subpoenaed from Google....

snipped for focus @10ofRods
One in (semi?) popular use comes to mind---Bing Maps.
{eta: Bing Maps }

Bing Maps - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Spit-balling on the topic, but what about this kind of parcel mapping, primarily thought of {edit: by me, anyway} re property taxes assessments, but showing streets, etc.

Latah County Parcel Assessment

Geographic information system - Wikipedia Also refers to other mapping.

BK could have used it? Not saying he would have used it.

Could LE find search queries? I got nuttin.

 

[Sjöberg]

Has it ever been established that Ethan had taken to parking the family vehicle overnight at 1122 King? If BK did all the prior visits as nominally indicated by cellular connects, he would know what vehicles were associated with the house and barring BK acquiring very recent information about KG's car purchase, the set of vehicles parked at 1122 that early-AM was significantly different than that which would have been observed in prior visits. So allegedly he continued with the entry in spite of that variance?

Yes, I still have two hard questions in this case:
1) how did he know, as he departed Pullmann, that his target(s) was/were at King road at all and that there was no party going on or similar? Or did he not know? Considering he turned off (or airplane mode'd, not sure) his cell phone that night, but AFAIK, not on the previous nights, it seems like it was "go time". How did he know that?
2) did he know all the cars and how? If he did not know all the cars (like Kaylees new one), then why did this not make him change his plans? Or did he somehow scout who was in the house before he entered?

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Idaho murder house victims' families will seek the death penalty for accused killer Bryan Kohberger after experts speculated his 'standing silent' during court hearing was to keep plea deal option open​

• The attorney for Goncalves' family said that their family support the death penalty in this case
• Bryan Kohberger, 28, is accused of murdering Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin on November 13, 2022

"Two of the Idaho quadruple murder victims' families will seek the death penalty for the college students' alleged killer, an attorney has said.

Bryan Kohberger, 28, is accused of murdering Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin on November 13, 2022. He stayed silent when asked to give a plea at a hearing last week.

Now, the attorney for Goncalves' family said that their family, as well as Mogen's family, support the death penalty in this case following the grizzly murders.

They are filing notices indicating their desire to seek capital punishment during the trial, reports NewsNation.

Shanon Gray, the Goncalves family’s attorney told NewsNation: 'We spoke with the prosecutor on the case, Mr. Thompson. He’s going to meet with all the families individually, and then make a decision based on that.

'So, the Goncalves family obviously supports the death penalty in this case.' "

Idaho victims' families will seek death penalty for accused Kohberger

 

[I'm Nobody]

I also wanted to add that the investigators may have used Luminol; and if they've found more evidence, imo they're keeping it under wraps, since there is no reason for them to divulge everything just yet.

Thank you @Erutan
Yes. I agree LE is keeping evidence under wraps.
Remember the very early reports of this being a "targeted" attack that were walked back 19 days later as a "miscommunication." That was always curious to me. IMO the killer left something besides the sheath, inside or outside the house. Thompson in the TMZ video seems so sure the murderer was "laser-focused on the house." I've wondered if a floor-plan or picture fell out of BK's pocket or car. Something led LE down that path and they said so early on a few times. Then Oops, miscommunication; more like too much communication.

Of course we now know at least one resident was targeted but the early presser comments were about the house itself I thought.
JMO.

On NOV 15. Moscow police said they preliminarily "believe this was an isolated, targeted attack and there is no imminent threat to the community at large," and that "evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack."
ABC11 11/15/22 story "evidence indicated targeted attack" got scrubbed and replaced by 12/01/22 what may be their strongest departure yet from their earlier statements.

NOV 27. When Snell was asked "who was targeted or were there multiple people that were targeted doing that, that incident," he said the information was "pertinent to the investigation" but "ultimately will come out."
FOX10 11/27 will ultimately come out to public police say.

NOV 30. Thompson said this home was actually what the murderer was laser-focused on, but he never explained what he means ... or why cops might think that. TMZ 11/30/22 Thompson house targeted

Dec 1. On one occasion 10 days after the students were killed, Moscow police Capt. Roger Lanier said during a press conference that “We told the public very clearly from the beginning that we believe it was a targeted attack. “To be honest, you’re going to have to trust us on that at this point, because we’re not going to release why we think that.” NYPost 12/01/2022

DEC 1. “The Latah County Prosecutor’s Office stated the suspect(s) specifically looked at this residence, and that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted,” Moscow police said. Then walked this back as "miscommunication. NN clarifies comments 12/01/22

edit clarity. Sorry for all the old news reports.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Yes, I still have two hard questions in this case:
1) how did he know, as he departed Pullmann, that his target(s) was/were at King road at all and that there was no party going on or similar? Or did he not know? Considering he turned off (or airplane mode'd, not sure) his cell phone that night, but AFAIK, not on the previous nights, it seems like it was "go time". How did he know that?
2) did he know all the cars and how? If he did not know all the cars (like Kaylees new one), then why did this not make him change his plans? Or did he somehow scout who was in the house before he entered?

Good questions, @Sjöberg

I have one thought, not specifically regarding how/if he knew who was at the house or was aware of whose vehicles were parked there.

If Maddie and/or Kaylee were his main "target", he could have been watching them on the live feed at the Grub Truck online from his apartment, where they went for food after being at the Corner Bar, and seen them leave with their food (with the rideshare driver, neither had vehicles that night) and presumed at that late hour they were on their way home. JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

Excellent work. A couple questions to the group:

Has it ever been established that Ethan had taken to parking the family vehicle overnight at 1122 King? If BK did all the prior visits as nominally indicated by cellular connects, he would know what vehicles were associated with the house and barring BK acquiring very recent information about KG's car purchase, the set of vehicles parked at 1122 that early-AM was significantly different than that which would have been observed in prior visits. So allegedly he continued with the entry in spite of that variance?

Cool Cats indicated:
Final examinations began on Monday, December 12, 2022 to Friday, December 16, 2022...He would be extremely busy administering final exams as a TA and may have known he might not be back....

Respectfully: IIRC It was long planned that he would be departing Pullman Dec. 13; his father flew west on Dec. 12. MOO he was not too concerned about responsibilities during exam week....

Has anyone seen a recent Carfax for the Elantra? I can't find a reference but I thought there was an Inspection on Dec. 16 when the Elantra was serviced in PA. Was this a state inspection as required for registration renewal or transfer? Might be indicative that he already knew that he was not going back to WSU? Or that he was undertaking to sell the car in PA?

MOO: the meetings of Dec 7 and Dec 9 served to indicate to BK that he was not returning to WAZOO in January 2023. Or he was told that specifically. Either way: it would appear that his parents were not advised of that prior to possibly Dec. 16?

In spite of the gag order, this group knows a lot about the crime and the evidence...I hesitate to think how introspective and detailed and voluminous these posts would be if we had say, 3-times as much evidence to consider. I believe at this stage, that guess is the minimum measure of the evidence available to the prosecution. MOO.

BBM

Do we know if there were final exams BK was expected to administer and/or grade? Not all professors teaching undergrads employ final exams. Do we know for sure the professor BK was TA-ing for did? I know some profs like to finish up early so they don't give finals (even though at some universities that's frowned upon for lots of reasons.)

JMO

 

[Bogbacal2]

I keep wondering about the shower curtain to cover the seats. I guess that could work, but there's also castoff (blood doesn't dry that fast), and he'd have been moving around, and he'd have to leave some areas uncovered just to drive and steer. Plus if he drove away at a high rate of speed as stated in the PCA, then he wasn't altogether calm perhaps.

Unless he covered every inch of the car and then removed it all after he was free of any DNA from the victims, I don't see how he could both commit the crimes and remove every bit of potential DNA in the car. Even if he did cover everything, the removal process could inadvertently leave some DNA, right? IDK, but then again, I can't do Starbucks drive-thru without spilling or getting crumbs everywhere, so maybe it's just me, but I don't see how he could keep all of their DNA out of the car.

IIRC early on some of our verified experts were explaining how DNA from skin, blood, hair, even breath were going to be all over BK and his car, so IDK if that was correct or not. Baffles me though that the car would have exonerating evidence, and the only thing I can think of is no blood or some car computer system data that would exonerate him.

I agree. IMO, unless he had a bag waiting outside of the car, stripped and hosed himself off before getting into the car…leaving at a high rate of speed. Stopping myself because this scenario does not seem plausible! He’d have to bag the clothes and put them in the car/trunk, weapon…wouldn’t there have to be some DNA, due to the nature of the crime and it being so “messy”, in the car? No one is that good!

 

[jepop]

Thank you @Erutan
Yes. I agree LE is keeping evidence under wraps.
Remember the very early reports of this being a "targeted" attack that were walked back 19 days later as a "miscommunication." That was always curious to me. IMO the killer left something besides the sheath, inside or outside the house. Thompson in the TMZ video seems so sure the murderer was "laser-focused on the house." I've wondered if a floor-plan or picture fell out of BK's pocket or car. Something led LE down that path and they said so early on a few times. Then Oops, miscommunication; more like too much communication.

Of course we now know at least one resident was targeted but the early presser comments were about the house itself I thought.
JMO.

On NOV 15. Moscow police said they preliminarily "believe this was an isolated, targeted attack and there is no imminent threat to the community at large," and that "evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack."
ABC11 11/15/22 story "evidence indicated targeted attack" got scrubbed and replaced by 12/01/22 what may be their strongest departure yet from their earlier statements.

NOV 27. When Snell was asked "who was targeted or were there multiple people that were targeted doing that, that incident," he said the information was "pertinent to the investigation" but "ultimately will come out."
FOX10 11/27 will ultimately come out to public police say.

NOV 30. Thompson said this home was actually what the murderer was laser-focused on, but he never explained what he means ... or why cops might think that. TMZ 11/30/22 Thompson house targeted

Dec 1. On one occasion 10 days after the students were killed, Moscow police Capt. Roger Lanier said during a press conference that “We told the public very clearly from the beginning that we believe it was a targeted attack. “To be honest, you’re going to have to trust us on that at this point, because we’re not going to release why we think that.” NYPost 12/01/2022

DEC 1. “The Latah County Prosecutor’s Office stated the suspect(s) specifically looked at this residence, and that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted,” Moscow police said. Then walked this back as "miscommunication. NN clarifies comments 12/01/22

edit clarity. Sorry for all the old news reports.

Great post and lots of work with LE statements and press conference quotes! IMO, you give a good overview of those small windows we got to glance through into the investigation. I like this kind of temporal sleuthing and I think it can definately point to clues re LE procedure/theorising in what was no doubt a highly dynamic investigation over time. MOO.

Also that's an insightful thought that the killer may have left something else behind that informed the target angle. I always assumed that this was surmised via an emerging forensics analysis of the crime scene but your conjecture appears entirely plausible. It is definate food for thought! MOO

You've re-awoken my interest in the house was targeted angle. I've speculated before that some of the warrants almost certainly relate to the investigation of this angle. MOO. It would be good to cross reference with the info in your post. If I ever get the time to look at those warrants again your post will be my go to starting point!

MOO

 

[Bogbacal2]

Whoops, we double-dipped @NCWatcher! Deleting mine. I have been through the process of proving in-state residency and IME a utility bill alone doesn't work in my state

He'd have to have proof of identity to get his DL. By the time he had that, the plates are easier.

https://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/docs/ID-requirements.pdf

I wonder if he got an enhanced DL, too?

I also wonder, not that it makes a difference, if there were any references to his “visual snow” impairment (using impairment loosely here-not saying people with VS are impaired)

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I also wonder, not that it makes a difference, if there were any references to his “visual snow” impairment (using impairment loosely here-not saying people with VS are impaired)

Can't imagine he'd be offering that information up , although it does make me wonder not just about BK but about anyone with that syndrome... I didn't really delve in on that point b/c I considered it superfluous to the legal issues, but now that you mention it...

 

[10ofRods]

1. Further Incriminating Evidence: Public Release? Pre-Trial? 2. Losing Battle?


1. Could it happen? If so, person releasing info would be in violation of court's "gag order." There would be CONSEQUENCES for person (e.g., atty. disciplinary investigation & reprimand, censure?) and possibly re trial (e.g., change of venue?) Imo further "much more incriminating" evd. is unlikely to be released to gen. public pre-trial. US crim justice system provides for TRIALS by juries in courts to determine guilt BARD. And here a gag order is in place.

2. Atty's on ID. "Capital Roster" of PDs are experienced crim attys vetted & selected by a statewide commission to defend indigent defendants in DP cases (even tho legally & tech'ly, this is NOT a DP case, not ATM). Only ~ 33 attys in the state are on the list. The three of them working on BK's behalf are not fresh off the law school or bar exam boat.

Defense has been conducting own investigation since early days* and has received extensive discovery materials from prosecution and undoubtedly has a much better idea about the strength of the state's case, than gen. public does, and even more than avid & knowledgeable sleuths on this forum do.

Is def. fighting a losing battle? IDK.

"Slam dunks" happen on BASKETBALL courts, not criminal courts.

imo
_____________________________
* Someone help me out. Wasn't AT spotted & media-photographed at 1122 King, and inside the house, within a couple days of BK's arrest in PA?

Which is why the "stand mute" thing was so interesting. Typically, from a Defense point of view, the strongest early statement a defendant can make is that firm "Not Guilty" at arraignment. In the Bob Lee murder case (Cash App CEO) in San Francisco, the defendant Momeni showed up recently in court with a bounce in his step and a big smile on his face, having firmly declared himself Not Guilty (and his lawyer is already bringing forth elements of the defense, as strange as they may be).

To me, it looked like posturing by the defense in relationship to a plea bargain.

IMO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, we know he wasn't "right at the DMV on the 18th." If he had been, he would have gotten his WA plate that day rather than it being mailed to him about 3 weeks later in Dec (as verified in the link above as well as in lots of MSM links I've posted such as this one Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger changed license plate five days after student slayings )

Here is the DMV link stating he would have gotten the plate that day had he gone to the DMV in person rather than handling the matter online and by mail. (The title had to be mailed.) WA State Licensing (DOL) Official Site: Register your vehicle

He also had to get a WA driver's license before registering his car in WA. DL fees in WA are very high. His PA plate was good until the end of Nov (not April. See PCA for verification of Nov expiration.) So it's not so clear that he was choosing to be foolish financially by waiting until Nov.

JMO

All that is spot on AND the added benefit (<<sarcasm) is that in WA, the DMV and the license plate places are not together. Two different places, two different stops.

Also, just because I've seen it misstated a couple of times: The murders happened on the early morning of November 13, 2022 (4 a.m.ish). The night before, November 12. The murders were not on November 14.