GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #32

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An insignificant point but I wonder if her claim of herself being a product of a difficult birth has been corroborated/verified or is this another Poor-Lucy ploy to garner sympathies.
I think you might be right. I wonder if anyone around her had experienced a difficult birth at the time.
It would be interesting to find out if one of her cell mates (or an Actress in a popular tv show) was arrested in their nightdress and was diagnosed with CPTSD at the time she first went to her GP?
 
It will never happen.
This chapter of her life is finished.

I wonder
Did she ever ask for help with her mental problems?

Or is it a taboo for some peope to seek assistance?
I think she would be way too proud to admit there was anything wrong with her and ask for help. JMO

And narcissists practically never admit they're narcs from what I've heard.
 

Aug 18, 2023 The Trial of Lucy Letby | Daily Mail

'Killer hiding in plain sight' – The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Inside Story | Lucy Letby Documentary.

The Daily Mail’s Liz Hull was one of the only journalists in court every day for the trial of Lucy Letby, who faced 22 charges of murder and attempted murder of babies in her care. Liz, together with broadcast journalist Caroline Cheetham produced the groundbreaking podcast The Trial of Lucy Letby, which brought to life the trial as it happened.

In this documentary, Liz and Caroline reveal the shocking inside story of what really happened in the courtroom, as Britain’s most prolific child killer was brought to justice. Her crimes make her the most prolific child murderer in modern British history.

The 33-year-old attacked her tiny victims ‘in plain sight’ – injecting air into their bloodstreams or feeding tubes, causing them to collapse and die. She was also convicted of trying to murder six other newborns by poisoning them with insulin, overfeeding them milk, tampering with their breathing tubes or assaulting them. Manchester Crown Court was told that doctors at the Countess of Chester Hospital in Cheshire repeatedly went to managers to try to blow the whistle but their concerns were dismissed.

It wasn’t until the deaths of two identical triplets in 23 hours in June 2016 that Letby was finally removed from the ward and the unexpected deaths and collapses stopped.
 


Aug 18, 2023

Lucy Letby murdered seven babies, attempted to murder six others and there are allegations of more. She was the young nurse nobody would have suspected, working with the most vulnerable of tiny lives in the neonatal unit. She eclipses Myra Hindley and Beverley Allitt to become the worst child murderer in British modern history. The families she destroyed remain private but the case raises nationwide issues because of the shocking way NHS managers dismissed the concerns of doctors who were trying to raise the alarm. Instead of listening and calling the police, managers are reported to have accused them of mistreating the nurse and forced them to apologise.
 
Like many here I’ve followed the case for a very long time. I’m sure she was guilty. I admit that when I first heard of the case, it seemed impossible that she was. The moment that it really changed for me was when the texts and what’s apps to colleagues and family started coming out, and they made my skin prickle. Her insistence that she be allowed back in the room that Baby A had died in because that’s what she was told at her previous hospital was so ridiculous, and so cleverly unprovable, it was a good line. And it made her sound like she knew more about it all than other staff since she had been through it all before etc. her comments that she didn’t feel as supported in the atmosphere as she had previously, always written with a little “x” at the end, just really set my hair on end though I couldn’t say why. I felt like I was being manipulated just reading them.

I think “grief vampire” crossed my mind but it felt like more than that. They reminded me of people I’ve known, mostly women, who seem to thrive on drama and attention that comes with disaster: people who are often in hospital or their kids are in hospital and they Instagram their hospital bracelet with some vague caption like “not how I hoped I’d be spending my night” and then everyone jumps in the comments like omg are you okay!?!?

She was slightly martyrish, slightly know it all, slightly disdainful (“the new girl had her and is devastated” really bothered me, though again I don’t know why??) and always fishing around in those conversations for something intangible that was meeting her need… yuck.

I wondered if maybe she had been someone who always felt overlooked and unspecial outside of her home where she was clearly treated as very special. Becoming a NICU nurse suddenly all kinds of impressive and powerful people put the most precious thing in their world in her hands. And they were out of their depth and she was in control. In those times in NICU, she could have everyone from a doctor (parent) or CEO to the kind of popular kids she knew at school but wasn’t one of being completely dependent on your judgement, care, thanking you profusely for keeping their baby alive, and in that situation you have a lot of SOCIAL power and EMOTIONAL power as well as the obvious life or death power. Everyone with a premie in that place is totally beholden to a highly skilled NICU nurse. It would have been a huge rush for someone who had felt perennially underestimated or overlooked.
IMO MOO - just my vibes I guess.
 
I actually think — based on nothing but my own opinion — that she won’t.

The thing about Lucy that bugged me is that she seems so defeated. I follow a lot of true crimes stories like so many of you, and the killers usually come across to me as cocky, feeling like they are the smartest in the room. To me Lucy appeared so long as someone who had been unjustly accused and had just resigned herself to what was happening to her. Her behavior — facade, is like nothing I’ve ever seen before. It’s why I struggled with making up my mind about her for so long.

But then I landed at this. She’s done evil things, but a part of her, probably a small part knows this and feels guilty (‘I don’t deserve mom and dad, I’m a horrible person’). That part of her knows she belongs in prison, which is why she never really protested her innocence in a manner that you’d expect from someone unjustly being accused of murdering babies. And then the other part of her, that thrives on sympathy, enjoys looking so sad and depressed because she’s still getting the attention she craves from her parents, her friends, her supporters. She keeps up the defeated facade for them. Not because she thinks she’s innocent, but for their attention.

In my opinion, based on nothing but my own thoughts.

Many people said she came across as cocky and a smart arse on the stand. I didn't personally see cockiness, just somebody very self-assured, professional and assertive, but she certainly didn't seem defeated when I saw her, except at one point: when asked about the fact her defense say she cared for Baby J uneventfully the day after this baby was allegedly attacked. The barrister asked her to look at a record, and said who was present who wasn't there the day before? She immediately admitted, with resignation, "her parents". The record was quite complex with a lot of writing, and yet she immediately spotted the relevant information.

I actually think she doesn't know how an innocent person would act or think, and I believe that her behaviour on stand was mostly her best attempt at acting "innocent". I got the impression that she's not anywhere near as clever as she superficially appears, the actual content of her lies was primary-school levels of stupid, but she said everything with such confidence and conviction that she made it seem almost credible. She also used juvenile tactics like asking pointless questions to avoid or delay answering. Again she did this with complete confidence and calmness so that it somehow seemed believable, despite the ridiculousness.

She had got away with terrible crimes for a long time, just by acting completely cool and calm while doing terrible things, and disguising herself by pretending to be sweet, fragile and innocent the rest of the time. To me, she was just hoping to get by on the stand, the same way she'd always got away with it before.

The lies on the stand about her arrest, making a big fuss about her "PTSD", and carrying a comfort blanky, was just her default camouflage as vulnerable and delicate, and to control the situation. Her acting completely unfazed and composed, even when caught on the stand in colossal lies, it the same way she she was completely unreactive when (allegedly) caught red-handed by Dr Jayaram.

In the police interview footage that was released on Friday, I was struck by how quietly and gently she was talking - she wasn't like that the day I saw her. This is her default "harmless" mode - gentle, calm, frail, polite, quiet. When that doesn't work - such as on the stand under greater pressure - she tries to be clever with slippery politician-style answers.

The reports of her parents reading out a victim impact statement on her behalf during her successful grievance hearing seems so manipulative - like she's trying to make herself look so vulnerable and damaged by those mean consultants that she has reverted to needing parental care. Top notch victim-playing, and I just know that she would have made it seem like a 26 year old having Mummy and Daddy caping for her at a work dispute was the most reasonable thing in the world.



Just answering to this thread generally: I really, really do not think that attention-seeking was her motive. She didn't really try to show off during resuscitations or play the hero. There is a minority sub-type of Munchausen's (factitious disorder) where the individual is motivated not by wanting sympathy and attention, but by outsmarting medical professionals. I strongly believe that Letby got a thrill from "outsmarting" everybody who trusted her, which made her feel superior to these parents and doctors - duper's delight. She thrived off watching the continued grief of the parents and confusion of the doctors, as it made her feel powerful and prolonged this Munchausen's feeling of superiority. I believe she was a sadist, and psychologically sadists want power and control over their victims. I believe she got a God-like euphoria from murdering, as described by serial killer nurse Will Davis.

I also do not for one minute believe the married doctor's claims she had an "unrequited" obsession with him. He was an unfortunate-looking middle aged dad, she was a slim 26 year old, decent looking and single. She would not have looked at him twice if he wasn't already paying her attention. It's clear from his texts and his actions he was infatuated with her. I always suspected he liked her more than she did him, and she primarily just enjoyed wrapping him around her little finger. She obviously materially benefitted from his taking her on shopping trips and to restaurants. She clearly did want him there for the June 2016 cases, but this is by no means her primary motive, it was just a bonus for her in my opinion.
 
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I think this text message gives us a clue to some of her motivation - it's about the parents. (She could say it's about the poor babies who lost their chance at life or who suffered, but she doesn't).

'It's not about me or anyone else, it's these poor parents who have to walk away without their baby. There are no words, it's been awful.'



I agree.

If you look at her victim selection, it's multiples so she could enjoy the parent's grief for longer, babies that had overcome adversity, or parents that had overcome adversity to have a baby.

The other nurse who believes her baby was poisoned with insulin had had 6 miscarriages before finally having a live baby. Letby said something, unprompted, about to not getting her hopes up because things can happen. The mother was furious and made a complaint, and believes her baby was targeted as revenge. But I believe Letby had already earmarked this baby, due wanting the mother to have the anguish of losing her much-longed-for 7th and only surviving baby.
 

19 Aug 2023

Here are the probable motives that the investigators mentioned during Lucy Letby's trial:

She Enjoyed 'Playing God'


Lucy Letby's final victims were two triplet boys, referred to in court as babies O and P. Child O died shortly after Letby returned from a holiday in Ibiza in June 2016, while child P died a day after their sibling.

During the trial, prosecutors said by that time Letby was "completely out of control", adding that "she was in effect playing God".

[..]

She Enjoyed Hurting The Babies

Letby was arrested and released twice. On her third arrest in 2020, she was formally charged and held in custody.

During searches at her home, police found hospital paperwork and a handwritten note on which Letby had written: "I am evil, I did this."

[..]

She Wanted The Attention Of An Anonymous Doctor

Prosecutors alleged that Letby was having a secret relationship with a married doctor at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

He was one of the doctors who would be contacted when babies rapidly deteriorated, which was thought to be a crucial aspect of their relationship. It was implied that she hurt them to receive his "personal attention", but Letby disagreed.

[..]

She Wasn't 'Good Enough

The jurors were presented with several notes written by Lucy Letby, one of which said, "I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them. On another note, she wrote, "I will never have children or marry. I will never know what it's like to have a family."

Boredom

Lucy Letby was a band 5 nurse, meaning that she had the skills and training to tend to the sickest babies in the neonatal unit. At the trial, she agreed that she sometimes found work less stimulating when she was assigned to babies who did not need as much medical attention.

[..]

"Lucy Letby sought to deceive her colleagues and pass off the harm she caused as nothing more than a worsening of each baby's existing vulnerability. In her hands, innocuous substances like air, milk, fluids - or medication like insulin - would become lethal. She perverted her learning and weaponised her craft to inflict harm, grief, and death," said Pascale Jones of the CPS.

"Time and again, she harmed babies, in an environment which should have been safe for them and their families. Her attacks were a complete betrayal of the trust placed in her," he said.
 
Dawn said: 'We know she couldn’t have done anything that she’s accused of, so without a doubt we stand by her."

"I grew up with Lucy and not a single thing that I’ve ever seen or witnessed of Lucy would let me for a moment believe she is capable of the thing’s she’s accused"The jury spent more than 110 hours deliberating the charges against Letby, but her friends believe police were 'looking to find someone culpable' for the rising mortality rate at the hospital."

 

18 Aug 2023

Lucy Letby - who was working at the Countess of Chester Hospital at the time of the murders - is now the UK's most prolific child killer of modern times. Sky News presents an hour-long special programme looking at how police caught the nurse.
 

19 Aug 2023

Five years have passed since Lucy Letby was first arrested at her home in Chester. Police banged on the door at 6am on a July morning in 2018, leading the killer nurse away in handcuffs as her father looked on.

Letby was remanded in custody after her third arrest in November 2020 and has been locked up ever since, spending a total of 1,012 days in four different prisons.

Penal experts predict that, due to the heinous nature of her crimes – Letby was found guilty this week of murdering seven newborns and attempting to murder six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015 and 2016 – she will spend the rest of her life behind bars.

Unlike other prisoners serving life sentences, however, Letby is expected to be given a “whole life order” – making her only the fourth female defendant in British history to have no hope of parole.

[..]

She joins the ranks of Rose West, serial killer Joanna Dennehy and the late Moors murderer Myra Hindley, all notorious for their depraved, remorseless acts.

Whole life orders, explains Tom Nicholson, a leading criminal barrister at Two Harcourt Buildings, are extremely rare, especially among women.

“While an ordinary life sentence comes with a minimum term the prisoner must serve before they can be considered for release, a whole life order is different,” he said. “It means that they will never be released or considered for release, by order of the court.

[..]

According to Ministry of Justice statistics, there are currently around 70 whole-life prisoners in this country, among them Milly Dowler killer Levi Bellfield, Michael Adebolajo, the man who murdered British soldier Lee Rigby, Mark Bridger, who abducted and murdered five-year-old April Jones, and Wayne Couzens, the ex-police officer who kidnapped, raped and killed Sarah Everard in 2021.

[..]

“She’ll be what’s known as a ‘restricted status’ prisoner: the female equivalent of Category A,” he explained. “She’ll be on suicide watch and it will be some time before she gets to mingle with the main prison population – at least six months.”

Initially, he explained, Letby will be kept in the hospital wing of the prison – to assess her mental and physical health, as well as her safety from other prisoners – before being moved to a cell on her own.

“Her life for much of the next few years is going to be a lonely one. She’ll associate mostly with prison officers, her key worker in the prison and one or two cleaners – but much of that interaction will be through the hatch in her cell door.

“She won’t be able to do much, other than read newspapers or books and watch TV. She’ll get one hour of exercise by herself each day. She will be able to phone her family and receive visits from them, but the police will have to vet them first.”

Though Letby’s parents, Susan and John, attended every day of her nine-month trial at Manchester Crown Court, HMP Bronzefield is 212 miles – almost a four-hour drive – from the family home in Chester, making regular visits difficult.

Prof Jewkes said the main focus for the next few years will be Letby’s safety. “She may well have a price on her head. At best, she’ll be subjected to extreme bullying and intimidation. At worst, she might be in quite considerable physical danger.

[..]
 
As difficult as it is, we could probably all do without torturing ourselves regarding the motive. A) There is plenty we don't know about her past. Much of it could be entirely unknown to anyone but LL and her parents. I get an odd vibe from the whole family dynamic. B) I imagine doing something as horrific as this may require the convergence of a number of factors/motives, many of which may be opaque to even her.

Like many of you I have been following this case for years, long before LL was considered as suspect. I have also been on the mental journey from being convinced of her innocence through to being convinced of her guilt. I don't know what I had expected to feel when the verdicts finally came out, but I feel cold and sad.

My attention on this case will switch from LL to the system that enabled her. How can we prevent something like this from ever happening again?

I wasn't a regular poster but have been in these threads for a very long time. Many thanks to all of you who put in the hours to compile information, discuss and record the case. I hope you all find a little peace with this verdict.

Yeah I'm not sure why there's such an intense scrutiny on her motive. I don't think a lot of male serial killers get the same (not saying there's no interest at all, just less). I think people even subconsciously just can't fathom a woman murdering babies, hence the focus on wanting to know motive. Sometimes the motive is just 'that's a monumentally effed up evil person'. Given there was no attempt made to have her declared incompetent, or seek an insanity plea, or explain it away with mental illness or personality disorder, we have to assume that there's none of that at play here and she's just evil. Also I'm not swayed much by all the criminologists who love to get their names into the media after crimes and dish out armchair diagnoses like factitious disorder without ever having met the person a single time (nor are they qualified to diagnose anything anyway, unless they're some other kind of health professional as well as a criminologist). I'll wait until the media report on any diagnoses she receives from psychiatrists in her correctional facility.

I might be in the minority, but I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. I’m sure he loved the ego boost he got from being her confidante and she seemed to worship him— insisting he needed to be called to emergencies over other physicians. I feel like his relationship with ll likely blinded him to her activities on the unit.
JMO.

I've no sympathy for him, but I do have sympathy for his wife and kids so I'm okay with him being anon for their sake.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

This was brought over from last thread---​


was posted by Tortoise:

Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby

Hospital bosses failed to investigate allegations and tried to silence doctors, BBC investigation finds.
www.bbc.co.uk

"The BBC investigation also found:

<snipped>

  • As well as the seven murder convictions, Letby was on duty for another six baby deaths at the hospital - and the police have widened their investigation

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-08-18...ictims-vow-to-continue-the-search-for-answers

There were 13 deaths on the neonatal unit where she worked over a one-year period, which is five times the usual rate, and the nurse was on duty for all of them.

It blows my mind to see it in writing that there were 13 deaths total and LL was on duty for all 13.

I say that because one of the major arguments made by LL's supporter's was ------>>> " There were 13 total deaths, why weren't those shown on the staffing grid? That would prove her innocence ."

But now we learn that she was actually on duty for all of them.

I have posted my theory about this previously---that perhaps LL was involved with ALL of those deaths, but the others had more reasonable doubts----more health issues in babies, less evidence to connect LL because no notes showing she fed or gave them treatments at certain key times? And if they had given the jury 13 murder cases, but half didn't have adequate solid evidence, they could lose all the cases.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

This was brought over from last thread---​


was posted by Tortoise:


It blows my mind to see it in writing that there were 13 deaths total and LL was on duty for all 13.

I say that because one of the major arguments made by LL's supporter's was ------>>> " There were 13 total deaths, why weren't those shown on the staffing grid? That would prove her innocence ."

But now we learn that she was actually on duty for all of them.

I have posted my theory about this previously---that perhaps LL was involved with ALL of those deaths, but the others had more reasonable doubts----more health issues in babies, less evidence to connect LL because no notes showing she fed or gave them treatments at certain key times? And if they had given the jury 13 murder cases, but half didn't have adequate solid evidence, they could lose all the cases.
Mine too Katy. And the 'one death' they had on the unit in the seven years since.
I don't think for one minute Myers could have thought she was innocent.
 
My apologies if this was already but this floored me. From the UK times: “

“When doctors warned that she might be a killer, hospital bosses took her side — offering to support her with a master’s degree and find her a role at a top children’s hospital.


This is so shocking. Just unbelievable. Why were they fighting so hard for her? I know they wanted to protect their reputation but this is just madness.
 
This is so shocking. Just unbelievable. Why were they fighting so hard for her? I know they wanted to protect their reputation but this is just madness.
Makes me wonder if it was relevent to the convo she had with Dr choc that time about Dr Hue Maybury saying she was good and her being an ideal candidate for further education.
 
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