GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

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That’s a very accurate and precise description of the bowling alley. I have sensory issues and just reading this makes me feel a twinge. Loud frenetic noise and crowds are high on my list to avoid. I’m curious though of your point about how this would feel for someone like Ethan.

I’m not the OP, but I think the OP’s point was that a bowling alley’s noise is rhythmic, rather than just loud and frenetic. If EC’s mind was disorganiced, with voices and/or hallucinations, the “rhythmic sounds” of a bowling alley could perhaps have soothed what’s going on in his head. I’m with you in not liking loud, crowded places, but I’ve never minded bowling alleys because the different sounds are expected, and each relate to something specific…they’re not random.
Imagine if you were a kid with a lot of disorganized noise in your head (doesn't matter if you have a formal diagnosis of psychotic, just that you experience the universe this way), as Ethan does. But bowling gives you organized crashiness. And it would have meaning (namely the goal is to knock out pins). If I were that kind of kid, I could totally see myself wanting to be at the bowling alley. It would in a way organize the craziness in my brain.

This is just speculation on my part, but I do wonder about the bowling.
 
DH and I have been discussing and wondering if Mariell Lehman might want to negotiate a plea deal with the Prosecutor. Given that Jennifer was convicted, maybe James is now concerned about the outcome of his trial. What do you think? Will James actually go to trial, or will he want his attorney to ask for a plea agreement?
 
In many ways, Jennifer Crumbley's parenting was on trial when she was ultimately found guilty Tuesday of involuntary manslaughter in her son's school shooting spree in suburban Detroit in 2021.

Prosecutors in Oakland County, Michigan, picked apart the time she spent with her horses, an extramarital affair, the ignoring of text messages from her teenage son, Ethan, now imprisoned, and her decision not to seek out a mental health professional for him in order to highlight a perceived pattern of neglectful actions.

Now, with a conviction against Crumbley, what parents do or fail to do will come under further scrutiny and potentially lead to more criminal prosecutions, some legal experts contend, and not solely for cases of mass shootings...
 
DH and I have been discussing and wondering if Mariell Lehman might want to negotiate a plea deal with the Prosecutor. Given that Jennifer was convicted, maybe James is now concerned about the outcome of his trial. What do you think? Will James actually go to trial, or will he want his attorney to ask for a plea agreement?
I guess they could ask, doesn't mean they'll get one. These are both precedent-setting cases, prosecutors could easily have decided not to press charges, if they wanted to avoid the trouble and expense of a trial.

JMO
 
I’m also really confused about her decision to go all the way to the Today show to be interviewed when it was clear she wanted to be extra careful about what she said. She already said the same thing outside the courthouse. She didn’t add anything substantive so why do the Today interview. Her BRIEF comment about JC being the last adult with the gun was more confusing than illuminating. She should’ve been able to clearly articulate her position for Guilt if she wants to speak out. People sometimes have unconscious motives and it looks confusing from the outside. Im sure it’s really tempting to be on a high profile case where the media is so eager to speak to you. JMO
The JFP was actually VERY clear in articulating her reason for the guilty verdict outside the courthouse: JC was the last adult in possession of the gun. No confusion there: she couldn't have been more definite or explicit IMO.
 
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I’m not the OP, but I think the OP’s point was that a bowling alley’s noise is rhythmic, rather than just loud and frenetic. If EC’s mind was disorganiced, with voices and/or hallucinations, the “rhythmic sounds” of a bowling alley could perhaps have soothed what’s going on in his head. I’m with you in not liking loud, crowded places, but I’ve never minded bowling alleys because the different sounds are expected, and each relate to something specific…they’re not random.
Yes, this exactly. I'm thinking the rhythmic clatter of the bowling alley calmed Ethan down. He was otherwise used to his brain being besieged by every kind of random noise and noisy thoughts. Poor kid was terrified and anxious.

I don't like bowling alleys at all, but some people love it. I'm thinking Ethan was deriving some benefit from being there that wasn't about successfully dropping pins.
 
DH and I have been discussing and wondering if Mariell Lehman might want to negotiate a plea deal with the Prosecutor. Given that Jennifer was convicted, maybe James is now concerned about the outcome of his trial. What do you think? Will James actually go to trial, or will he want his attorney to ask for a plea agreement?

I think we can get an idea of where Jame's trial is going by what the jury foreperson said:

"The picture of her handling the gun last was pretty damning for me."

The prosecutor emphasized that the jury can see Jennifer with the gun and this is the last sighting of the gun before Ethan took it. Jennifer was shooting the gun on Saturday November 27, 2021.

The jury heard that Ethan was grinning while he shot. Another expert, a secret service agent, said that
taking Ethan to the gun range helped prepare him to shoot his classmates. He shoots at his classmates with the same stance he uses at the gun range, aiming for the chest and head.

The video of him shooting shows the target with bullet holes, chillingly the target is of a head and chest.

The point is, I think the jury will find it damning to see James buying the gun and then giving his disturbed immature son free access to it by never keeping it locked up.

The best James can do is have his lawyer plead with the prosecutor to accept a guilty plea and in exchange for his guilty plea give him some years off his sentence. If Jennifer gets 12 years he can ask for 7 for example. Both of them have already served over 2 years.

Judges usually bring up the subject of remorse and taking responsibility. Apologizing to the families and articulating his responsibility could help him.

At Jennifer's sentencing watch the judge say that Jennifer doesn't take responsibility or show remorse. There will be victim impact statements and I wouldn't be surprised if the judge or family members mention how Jennifer said she wouldn't change her behavior if she had to do it all over again.

2 Cents
 
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In many ways, Jennifer Crumbley's parenting was on trial when she was ultimately found guilty Tuesday of involuntary manslaughter in her son's school shooting spree in suburban Detroit in 2021.

Prosecutors in Oakland County, Michigan, picked apart the time she spent with her horses, an extramarital affair, the ignoring of text messages from her teenage son, Ethan, now imprisoned, and her decision not to seek out a mental health professional for him in order to highlight a perceived pattern of neglectful actions.

Now, with a conviction against Crumbley, what parents do or fail to do will come under further scrutiny and potentially lead to more criminal prosecutions, some legal experts contend, and not solely for cases of mass shootings...

It will be very interesting to see if he gains sympathy for his wife’s affair, as well as her attempts to blame him for everything.

I’m not sure if I’ve seen all of James’s text but if his aren’t as incriminating as hers that may tip the balance.
 
IMO his parents had abandoned him for years (testimony of a neighbor). Traumatizing a child e.g. by neglect, rewires their brains permanently, so we can’t assume his violent tendencies existed independently of the way he was treated by them.

There was plenty enough in that household to create the conditions for either murder or suicide; you treat a child the way they did from a young age, at the very least, you’re going to get disordered thinking patterns, because normal human thinking patterns require certain parental (or parent-figure) interactions.

There is a lot of research current in this area. As an example that may not exactly be obvious, they have discovered that it’s not unusual for adopted children with behavior (issues), likely before they were adopted, to have poor internal rhythm. Treatment involves time on a trampoline, and having them bounce.
The lead scientist in this area is Van der Kolk.

Here’s a snippet of his work to summarize what I’m trying to say:

Traumatised people live in a world that's different from people who have not been traumatised. Their world looks different in every conceivable measure, whether it's brain or mind or body. It's a different planet.

Bessel van der Kolk


I believe this is the speech where van der Kolk talks about trampolines. Hearing him speak like this may be the best way to latch onto the kinds of things he talks about. His focus is how child abuse changes the brain, including how violence comes about. Very compelling talk IMO.

Some of this I agree with, but the interesting thing is that some of the most successful people had questionable childhoods. Some were abused, some were neglected--but for some odd reason, they chose to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and exceed everyone's expectations.

I don't know what the difference is, but I sense it might have something to do with the way we've come to expect more from parents and less from children. A century or so ago, a 15-year-old male would have likely had more access to firearms and his family would have expected him to know how to use them to hunt or shoot a rattlesnake. Or, protect the family if need be. How different it is today.

It's different from even half a century ago. I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and the teen boys (mostly rancher's kids) drove pickups with gunracks in the back windows--they were responsible for their guns. I remember one hunting accident but no school or other mass shootings.

I don't think we expect enough of our kids these days. They do bad things, and we look elsewhere for blame.

I agree that JC was irresponsible when it came to EC's gun. I think the right thing to do would have been for the parents of the victims to sue her into the poor house and garnish every check she ever earned for the rest of her life.

But, I don't agree that she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter. And, I can't imagine that won't be overturned on appeal. But, then again, I was stunned to hear the jury came back with a guilty verdict, so maybe I'm the one who's wrong.
 
Some of this I agree with, but the interesting thing is that some of the most successful people had questionable childhoods. Some were abused, some were neglected--but for some odd reason, they chose to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and exceed everyone's expectations.

I don't know what the difference is, but I sense it might have something to do with the way we've come to expect more from parents and less from children. A century or so ago, a 15-year-old male would have likely had more access to firearms and his family would have expected him to know how to use them to hunt or shoot a rattlesnake. Or, protect the family if need be. How different it is today.

It's different from even half a century ago. I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and the teen boys (mostly rancher's kids) drove pickups with gunracks in the back windows--they were responsible for their guns. I remember one hunting accident but no school or other mass shootings.

I don't think we expect enough of our kids these days. They do bad things, and we look elsewhere for blame.

I agree that JC was irresponsible when it came to EC's gun. I think the right thing to do would have been for the parents of the victims to sue her into the poor house and garnish every check she ever earned for the rest of her life.

But, I don't agree that she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter. And, I can't imagine that won't be overturned on appeal. But, then again, I was stunned to hear the jury came back with a guilty verdict, so maybe I'm the one who's wrong.
I know many people who are very successful who had disastrous childhoods, provided success is reflected in careers and financials. I often find them out of touch and emotionally impaired. IMO childhood lack of attachment is very damaging.

I agree that we don’t demand more from our kids today, but for me, this has nothing to do with guns. I’ve always found American schools to be egregiously lacking in discipline and academic challenge. I attended schools all over the world, and I never saw any that were so undemanding in terms of behavior in the classroom, the noise, the talking back, the not doing homework, the demands for attention, chewing gum, lack of rigor in academics, as the American schools were. It was very upsetting to me. I begged not to be placed in them, though some of them were the pride of their communities (e.g. American military schools abroad). I visited other American schools for the day (e.g. with cousins), and little was expected in those, either. This caused me to be placed in some fairly bizarre schools, but I wasn’t going to learn anything at the American ones. It has always been this way, as far as I can tell. The school shootings are more recent, but the lack of accountability and expectations from adults in the US has always blown my mind. IMO

I don’t believe we expect more from parents: IME we expect less. To use your example, on farms a child might own a gun, but would learn how to use it via dad out in the fields and woods. Dinners might be the whole family. And children weren’t gunning down beings or dueling on the streets. They were shooting dinner, while bonded with other (especially males).

I don’t think at all this verdict will be overturned on appeal. IIRC the manslaughter charge was approved by a higher court. I do think Ethan’s sentence might be overturned because of his age, and because in essence, he was a fifth victim.

Ethan’s parents were already in the hole financially. Suing them civilly would have had zero redress and created massive attorney fees for the victims.
 
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A century or so ago, a 15-year-old male would have likely had more access to firearms and his family would have expected him to know how to use them to hunt or shoot a rattlesnake. Or, protect the family if need be. How different it is today.
School shootings are not happening routinely all over the US. This in particular was an exceptional case. I'm sure there's still millions of kids learning to hunt with family members. And I'm sure there were always a few who misused guns to kill someone, or themselves (as a 15 year old boy in my class did in high school) . But those would have been private, local tragedies. Not staged, quasi-terrorist attacks guaranteed to feature on national news.

JMO
 
Some of this I agree with, but the interesting thing is that some of the most successful people had questionable childhoods. Some were abused, some were neglected--but for some odd reason, they chose to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and exceed everyone's expectations.

I don't know what the difference is, but I sense it might have something to do with the way we've come to expect more from parents and less from children. A century or so ago, a 15-year-old male would have likely had more access to firearms and his family would have expected him to know how to use them to hunt or shoot a rattlesnake. Or, protect the family if need be. How different it is today.

It's different from even half a century ago. I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and the teen boys (mostly rancher's kids) drove pickups with gunracks in the back windows--they were responsible for their guns. I remember one hunting accident but no school or other mass shootings.

I don't think we expect enough of our kids these days. They do bad things, and we look elsewhere for blame.

I agree that JC was irresponsible when it came to EC's gun. I think the right thing to do would have been for the parents of the victims to sue her into the poor house and garnish every check she ever earned for the rest of her life.

But, I don't agree that she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter. And, I can't imagine that won't be overturned on appeal. But, then again, I was stunned to hear the jury came back with a guilty verdict, so maybe I'm the one who's wrong.

The Crumbley's lost 2 tries at appeals already. The appellate court rejected their contention that the charges have no legal justification and then they took it to the Michigan supreme court and they denied it:

It is denied because we are not persuaded that the question should be reviewed by this court.

Of course Jennifer will want her appeal but appellate judges are reluctant to over turn a jury verdict.

2 Cents
 
It will be very interesting to see if he gains sympathy for his wife’s affair, as well as her attempts to blame him for everything.

I’m not sure if I’ve seen all of James’s text but if his aren’t as incriminating as hers that may tip the balance.
I would think they'd be security footage shown at his trial from inside "Acme Shooting Goods" showing James and EC from the time they enter the store until their exit with the 9mm handgun.

The woman from Acme who sold them the handgun testified at JC's trial that they entered the store and went directly to the 9mm gun, so they knew already what they wanted to purchase and where it was displayed in the store.
James's straw purchase certainly won't garner him any sympathy from the jury
 
Yes, this exactly. I'm thinking the rhythmic clatter of the bowling alley calmed Ethan down. He was otherwise used to his brain being besieged by every kind of random noise and noisy thoughts. Poor kid was terrified and anxious.

I don't like bowling alleys at all, but some people love it. I'm thinking Ethan was deriving some benefit from being there that wasn't about successfully dropping pins.
Interestingly - well to me anyway - in one of the old EC prosecution links, reported that he had 15 dental cavities which sounds high at 15.
The point being raised was regarding lack of access to healthcare, maybe it originated at the Miller hearing - they'd reviewed all his health records- but I'd wondered if he'd also developed a fear of the dentist at an early age.

Your post about rhythmic noise reminded me.
 
It's not clear if he had ever been assessed by a doctor or psychiatrist prior to the shooting for things like anxiety, ADHD, etc. His parents said he had anxiety, but I wonder if they had ever taken him for testing/diagnosis.

Some diagnoses run in families, and this one seems to have a lot going on.
I believe the need for excessive spending, affairs, etc. means something. JMO.
 
Interestingly - well to me anyway - in one of the old EC prosecution links, reported that he had 15 dental cavities which sounds high at 15.
The point being raised was regarding lack of access to healthcare, maybe it originated at the Miller hearing - they'd reviewed all his health records- but I'd wondered if he'd also developed a fear of the dentist at an early age.

Your post about rhythmic noise reminded me.
@ 2:28 JC testifies about EC's braces he got in middle-school.
EC wouldn't use the water pick and brush like he was supposed to and developed 13 cavities under the wire braces.
The wires had to be removed for the dentist to treat his cavities and then put back on.

13 cavities don't develop overnight and orthodontists check braces for adjustments at the very least once every 2 months and would have seen the cavities developing.

JC's testimony makes no sense to me unless EC never went to have his braces adjusted and the parents never made sure that he was correctly doing the daily mouth routine needed.

Was her testimony supposed to show that she was a mom who was on top of her kid's medical needs?






 
???

"Mr Crumbley sits in a more advantageous position to know what his direction may be," said Attorney Todd Perkins. "His waters wouldn't be as uncharted as… his wife’s."

Perkins said he expects Jennifer’s case will be appealed, potentially escalating to the level of federal court involvement.

When it comes to James' trial, Perkins thinks Tuesday's verdict will still have a major impact.

"The transcripts from this case are going to have to be produced. Can they be produced in enough time for Mr. Crumbley’s case to go forward?" Perkins said. Both the attorney representing James, and the prosecution, will need to "review" the transcripts.'

 

Betcha JC regrets saying she has 'no regrets'.


'THE SENTENCE'​

The maximum penalty for involuntary manslaughter is 15 years in prison. Matthews’ job on April 9 will be to set the minimum term to be served before Jennifer Crumbley is eligible for parole.

That minimum could be as high as 10 years, said Raben, adding that the sentences on four convictions would likely be served at the same time and not stacked.

As she considers a sentence, the judge undoubtedly will think about Jennifer Crumbley’s testimony in which she expressed no regrets about how she dealt with her son and the school on the day of the shooting. “We did lose a lot,” she said, summing up the tragedy'.


 
@ 2:28 JC testifies about EC's braces he got in middle-school.
EC wouldn't use the water pick and brush like he was supposed to and developed 13 cavities under the wire braces.
The wires had to be removed for the dentist to treat his cavities and then put back on.

13 cavities don't develop overnight and orthodontists check braces for adjustments at the very least once every 2 months and would have seen the cavities developing.

JC's testimony makes no sense to me unless EC never went to have his braces adjusted and the parents never made sure that he was correctly doing the daily mouth routine needed.

Was her testimony supposed to show that she was a mom who was on top of her kid's medical needs?






Ah thank you for the fuller story on this point. So it was under braces. Once again, just shows how easy it is to make assumptions from limited information. Not a dental anxiety phobia after all.

----
re your other post u there on the scheduling of James's trial, I heard a couple of local attys say, day of the verdict, they think James's trial will be pushed back. Also they commented that the time taken for jury selection may need to be longer than for Jennifer's
 
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