GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[dotr]

3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3
Thread #4
Thread #5

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

No gun control discussion folks. It is not allowed at WS because it leads to bickering over the pros and cons, feelings get hurt, and nothing that is said at Websleuths will ever change anything in that regard.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Continue the discussion here.

MI v. Jennifer Crumbley: School Shooter Mom Trial

Jennifer is charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Her husband, James Crumbley, will stand trial on the same charges in March.

www.courttv.com

 

[Chelly]

Tomorrow (Monday), judge will read final instructions to the jury, then deliberations will begin.

 

[GRT]

I think this is a clear case of hindsight being 20:20.

We all know families--or had friends growing up--who were different, melodramatic, self-centered, or just on a different mental or emotional level. But the odds that one of their kids becomes a mass shooter is infinitesimally small. It always seems so easy to look back and point out "red flags," but most of the time, those antics are put down to growing pains or kids being kids.

And in the vast, VAST majority of those cases -- that's all it is -- something the kid will grow out of.

I think it was poor judgment on JC's part to buy EC a gun, but lots of kids grow up around guns and know how to shoot and would never shoot another human.

No one ever knows what a jury would do, but I would find her not guilty. I don't like her, and I think she is self-centered and was mostly an absentee parent. But, I didn't see anything that could justify finding her guilty.

All MOO.

 

[cottonweaver]

Different case, different state and different charges, one victim & nobody dead but anyway. .....

December 2023

mother of a 6-year-old who shot his teacher in Virginia was sentenced Friday to two years in prison for felony child neglect, nearly a year after her son used her gun to critically wound the educator.

The state sentence she received Friday from Circuit Court Judge Christopher Papile was stiffer than what is called for in state sentencing guideline
Taylor's son told authorities he got his mother's 9mm handgun by climbing onto a drawer to reach the top of a dresser, where the firearm was in his mom's purse. He concealed the weapon in his backpack and then his pocket before shooting his teacher, Abby Zwerner, in front of her first-grade class.
Kovac told police the boy said, "I shot that b**** dead" while he was being restrained. He also said, "I got my mom's gun last night," according to Kovac.

Taylor initially told investigators she had secured her gun with a trigger lock, but investigators said they never found one.
Taylor pleaded guilty earlier this year to the felony neglect charge. As part of that plea deal, local prosecutors agreed to drop a misdemeanor count of recklessly storing a firearm.
James Ellenson, one of Taylor's attorneys, said earlier this year there were " mitigating circumstances " surrounding the situation, including Taylor's miscarriages and postpartum depression. She also has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, a condition sharing symptoms with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, according to court documents.

Taylor told ABC's "Good Morning America" in May that she feels responsible and apologized to Zwerner.

"That is my son, so I am, as a parent, obviously willing to take responsibility for him because he can't take responsibility for himself," Taylor said. During her sentencing in federal court last month, one of Taylor's attorneys read aloud a brief statement in which Taylor said she would feel remorse "for the rest of my life."

The school teacher .... is suing Newport News Public Schools for $40 million, alleging administrators ignored multiple warnings the boy had a gun.

Deja Taylor, mother of 6-year-old who shot Virginia teacher Abby Zwerner, gets 2 years in prison for child neglect

Deja Taylor has now been sentenced twice for the classroom shooting, which stunned the nation and shook the city of Newport News.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[DFWNF]

Different case, different state and different charges, one victim & nobody dead but anyway. .....

December 2023

mother of a 6-year-old who shot his teacher in Virginia was sentenced Friday to two years in prison for felony child neglect, nearly a year after her son used her gun to critically wound the educator.

The state sentence she received Friday from Circuit Court Judge Christopher Papile was stiffer than what is called for in state sentencing guideline
Taylor's son told authorities he got his mother's 9mm handgun by climbing onto a drawer to reach the top of a dresser, where the firearm was in his mom's purse. He concealed the weapon in his backpack and then his pocket before shooting his teacher, Abby Zwerner, in front of her first-grade class.
Kovac told police the boy said, "I shot that b**** dead" while he was being restrained. He also said, "I got my mom's gun last night," according to Kovac.

Taylor initially told investigators she had secured her gun with a trigger lock, but investigators said they never found one.
Taylor pleaded guilty earlier this year to the felony neglect charge. As part of that plea deal, local prosecutors agreed to drop a misdemeanor count of recklessly storing a firearm.
James Ellenson, one of Taylor's attorneys, said earlier this year there were " mitigating circumstances " surrounding the situation, including Taylor's miscarriages and postpartum depression. She also has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, a condition sharing symptoms with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, according to court documents.

Taylor told ABC's "Good Morning America" in May that she feels responsible and apologized to Zwerner.

"That is my son, so I am, as a parent, obviously willing to take responsibility for him because he can't take responsibility for himself," Taylor said. During her sentencing in federal court last month, one of Taylor's attorneys read aloud a brief statement in which Taylor said she would feel remorse "for the rest of my life."

The school teacher .... is suing Newport News Public Schools for $40 million, alleging administrators ignored multiple warnings the boy had a gun.View attachment 480823

Deja Taylor, mother of 6-year-old who shot Virginia teacher Abby Zwerner, gets 2 years in prison for child neglect

Deja Taylor has now been sentenced twice for the classroom shooting, which stunned the nation and shook the city of Newport News.

www.cbsnews.com

Only 2 years, how disappointing.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think this is a clear case of hindsight being 20:20.

We all know families--or had friends growing up--who were different, melodramatic, self-centered, or just on a different mental or emotional level. But the odds that one of their kids becomes a mass shooter is infinitesimally small. It always seems so easy to look back and point out "red flags," but most of the time, those antics are put down to growing pains or kids being kids.

And in the vast, VAST majority of those cases -- that's all it is -- something the kid will grow out of.

I think it was poor judgment on JC's part to buy EC a gun, but lots of kids grow up around guns and know how to shoot and would never shoot another human.

No one ever knows what a jury would do, but I would find her not guilty. I don't like her, and I think she is self-centered and was mostly an absentee parent. But, I didn't see anything that could justify finding her guilty.

All MOO.

Yet according to Smith, JC is a "super vigilant" and "helicopter parent".

It's up to the jury do decide if JC was an SV mom who was always looking out for danger or was a mom who was "self-centered" and "mostly an absent parent" who neglected all of her son's warnings that he was mentally suffering and needed professional help.

What has been stated during the trial and here is that JC was a mom who was afraid her son would do something "dumb" or "stupid".

So what was her reasoning for that fear?

Hopefully the jury picks a foreperson who was/is meticulous.

I do feel that Smith was highly offensive, especially during her closing and did JC no favors making light of JC's actions and lack of actions by comparing her to herself and all other mothers.

 

[GeorgiaRai]

Here's a Taylor Swift lyric that I think is much more fitting than the one quoted by the defense:

You never gave a warning sign (I gave so many signs).

 

[BrownRice]

Yet according to Smith, JC is a "super vigilant" and "helicopter parent".

It's up to the jury do decide if JC was an SV mom who was always looking out for danger or was a mom who was "self-centered" and "mostly an absent parent" who neglected all of her son's warnings that he was mentally suffering and needed professional help.

What has been stated during the trial and here is that JC was a mom who was afraid her son would do something "dumb" or "stupid".

So what was her reasoning for that fear?

Hopefully the jury picks a foreperson who was/is meticulous.

I do feel that Smith was highly offensive, especially during her closing and did JC no favors making light of JC's actions and lack of actions by comparing her to herself and all other mothers.

I laugh at the helicopter parent reference. Ok, she checked his online homework portal, but parenting ended with screaming at him because he was missing assignments. How about asking him why he was missing assessments, was he overwhelmed with the classes, what did he need to be successful, did he need a tutor, etc. But nope, suck it up kid.

 

[Cool Cats]

Different case, different state and different charges, one victim & nobody dead but anyway. .....

December 2023

mother of a 6-year-old who shot his teacher in Virginia was sentenced Friday to two years in prison for felony child neglect, nearly a year after her son used her gun to critically wound the educator.

The state sentence she received Friday from Circuit Court Judge Christopher Papile was stiffer than what is called for in state sentencing guideline
Taylor's son told authorities he got his mother's 9mm handgun by climbing onto a drawer to reach the top of a dresser, where the firearm was in his mom's purse. He concealed the weapon in his backpack and then his pocket before shooting his teacher, Abby Zwerner, in front of her first-grade class.
Kovac told police the boy said, "I shot that b**** dead" while he was being restrained. He also said, "I got my mom's gun last night," according to Kovac.

Taylor initially told investigators she had secured her gun with a trigger lock, but investigators said they never found one.
Taylor pleaded guilty earlier this year to the felony neglect charge. As part of that plea deal, local prosecutors agreed to drop a misdemeanor count of recklessly storing a firearm.
James Ellenson, one of Taylor's attorneys, said earlier this year there were " mitigating circumstances " surrounding the situation, including Taylor's miscarriages and postpartum depression. She also has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, a condition sharing symptoms with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, according to court documents.

Taylor told ABC's "Good Morning America" in May that she feels responsible and apologized to Zwerner.

"That is my son, so I am, as a parent, obviously willing to take responsibility for him because he can't take responsibility for himself," Taylor said. During her sentencing in federal court last month, one of Taylor's attorneys read aloud a brief statement in which Taylor said she would feel remorse "for the rest of my life."

The school teacher .... is suing Newport News Public Schools for $40 million, alleging administrators ignored multiple warnings the boy had a gun.View attachment 480823

Deja Taylor, mother of 6-year-old who shot Virginia teacher Abby Zwerner, gets 2 years in prison for child neglect

Deja Taylor has now been sentenced twice for the classroom shooting, which stunned the nation and shook the city of Newport News.

www.cbsnews.com

VA - Boy, 6, in custody after shooting teacher, Newport News, Jan 2023 *mom charged* #3

OH WOW (though not surprised in the least) I hope karma comes for these two women.

www.websleuths.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I laugh at the helicopter parent reference. Ok, she checked his online homework portal, but parenting ended with screaming at him because he was missing assignments. How about asking him why he was missing assessments, was he overwhelmed with the classes, what did he need to be successful, did he need a tutor, etc. But nope, suck it up kid.

He was on his phone.
Keast said during parent's bail hearing that EC looked up school shootings and guns so many times that he was receiving ads for mental heath help.

Parents charged in Mich. school shooting lose bid to reduce bail

Two parents charged with their son in a Michigan school shooting failed to get their $500,000 bond reduced Friday, as prosecutors offered new allegations about the teen’s hallucinations, passion for guns and boasts about violence.

www.kjct8.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I laugh at the helicopter parent reference. Ok, she checked his online homework portal, but parenting ended with screaming at him because he was missing assignments. How about asking him why he was missing assessments, was he overwhelmed with the classes, what did he need to be successful, did he need a tutor, etc. But nope, suck it up kid.

That was the fight mentioned that happened on the night of 11-29 and JC said she thought all was normal (whatever normal is to her) the next morning, the 30th.
This is what EC was doing instead of his homework.
You'd think they would have scanned his phone when they supposedly took it away from him.
I would say that the great majority of times the parents looked at EC his head was in his phone.


"After the shooting, investigators found two videos on Crumbley’s phone, which they said were made the night before the crimes occurred. In the videos the suspect talks about shooting and killing students at the high school, Oakland County Sheriff’s Lt. Tim Willis said.

Michigan school shooting suspect made videos about killing students: lawyers - National | Globalnews.ca

The suspect, Ethan Crumbley, also had two meetings with teachers hours before the shootings to discuss some behavioural concerns.

globalnews.ca

 

[Boodles]

It’s so painful to see the video of EC’s parents arriving at the school counselor office on November 30, and seeing EC walk out of that room alone going back to class. How can you be more blatant in begging for help than in writing “help me,” drawing a gun, bullet, etc. on his math paper?!?

But nope, his parents just ignored it, like they ignored all of his other signs of troubles. Such betrayal. Such a tragic result.

I wish I hadn’t stumbled across this trial.

 

[Izzylizzy]

It’s so painful to see the video of EC’s parents arriving at the school counselor office on November 30, and seeing EC walk out of that room alone going back to class. How can you be more blatant in begging for help than in writing “help me,” drawing a gun, bullet, etc. on his math paper?!?

But nope, his parents just ignored it, like they ignored all of his other signs of troubles. Such betrayal. Such a tragic result.

I wish I hadn’t stumbled across this trial.

JC testified that she hardly looked at it.
Cottonweaver posted about video footage showing JC thrust the papers at James when they walked out of the school.
EC's drawing and the mental health contacts given to parents in the meeting.
Adding insult to injury 1.5 minutes after JC pulled out of the parking lot she texted Kira/horse barn about her riding lesson that night and asked if the vet had been there yet for Billy's leg.
She also let boyfriend know they could meet.

Horses and lover were her concerns on the morning of Nov.30, 2021.

 

[MrsWatson]

DBM

 

[cottonweaver]

IzzyLizzy,
I got that wrong. I came across the CCTV again and it was wrong of me to say ' thrust'
On second viewing of the CCTV, she passes it back to her husband after he's put his jacket on.
( Just shows how easy it is to be sure of something which didn't happen)

Anyway, I'm still stuck on her 'seriously freaking out ' texts, March 2021 ( Last couple of pages of last thread)
What had EC said or done that made her panic that he was a few minutes late and 'he might do something stupid'
James doesn't reply ' what do you mean by something stupid?'
Had EC made a threat to himself or others?

I just feel that there's so much we don't know and so much evidence that didn't come into trial. ( maybe more will come out in James' trial which is coming soon?)

 

[cottonweaver]

VA - Boy, 6, in custody after shooting teacher, Newport News, Jan 2023 *mom charged* #3

OH WOW (though not surprised in the least) I hope karma comes for these two women.

www.websleuths.com

Thanks yes. Some members had posted about what the sentences might be if JC was found guilty but I was having a hard time finding MI sentencing guidelines for Involuntary Manslaughter or examples of past cases in Michigan involving parents, kids and injuries/deaths.

Also @Weki thought the charges for Crumbley should have been for child neglect as per that Taylor case.

I didn't follow the Taylor case on WS but seems as if the thread reaches a consensus that the mother should get prison time.

 

[MrsWatson]

IzzyLizzy,
I got that wrong. I came across the CCTV again and it was wrong of me to say ' thrust'
On second viewing of the CCTV, she passes it back to her husband after he's put his jacket on.
( Just shows how easy it is to be sure of something which didn't happen)

Anyway, I'm still stuck on her 'seriously freaking out ' texts, March 2021 ( Last couple of pages of last thread)
What had EC said or done that made her panic that he was a few minutes late and 'he might do something stupid'
James doesn't reply ' what do you mean by something stupid?'
Had EC made a threat to himself or others?

I just feel that there's so much we don't know and so much evidence that didn't come into trial. ( maybe more will come out in James' trial which is coming soon?)

WRT to the "sesiously freaking out texts". If she's a helicopter parent, why didn't she know what time Ethan got home from school, even though it's March?

 

[cottonweaver]

WRT to the "sesiously freaking out texts". If she's a helicopter parent, why didn't she know what time Ethan got home from school, even though it's March?

She seems to be saying, in the time-stamped texts, that she does know his ETA and he's out by just a few minutes. That's how I interpreted it but I may be wrong.
Have a look GUILTY - MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5
On the following day, the next set of texts I pasted are from the 9th. ( I haven't checked the 2021 calendar to see if that was a school day either)