Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

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It is possible to renounce ones citizenship. But.... it needs to be done via filing a series of forms at a US embassy overseas and then having a final confirmation meeting with a staff person from the embassy.

In short, its a federal process, not a state process. I am thinking the author of the "literature" knows that Sovereign types place a great deal of emphasis on the county government being the highest level of legitimate authority- well until the county tells them do something they dont like.

So.... the Sovereign packet purchasers were told to file renouncement paperwork "A" and "B" and the county court because it would make sense to them.
Thank you for this explanation. So their "renouncing their citizenship" was a waste of time and money, since they paid for those packets. It amazes me the number of people who fall for these type things.
 
Just thinking more about Paul Grice. He is 31 yrs old. The other defendants are old enough to be his parents. Why was he involved with them?
He may have been friends with some of TA's kids, and grown up around them. It is a very small area, and it seems that everyone knows everyone else. And wasn't it reported that he was basically an "across the road neighbor" of one of the four? JMO
 
Thank you for this explanation. So their "renouncing their citizenship" was a waste of time and money, since they paid for those packets. It amazes me the number of people who fall for these type things.
Just read online it also takes $2,350 plus turning in a passport, plus appearing in person. So, Grice is still a citizen, as are the others. Seems they didn't even know how to be a sovereign citizen.
 
I think that depends on whether they're planning to try them all in one trial, or if they need to try them individually. Trying them one at a time would be exorbitantly expensive, so I'd think trying to plead one or all down might be beneficial.

I suspect whether they're tried together or not might depend on what LC learns about the strength of the Sovereign Citizen movement in that area prior to trial.

Do you wonder if TA and gang are counting on having at least one SC on the jury? My guess is that the Misfits are perhaps so accustomed to dealing with their own little group that they may think the entire county supports the SC movement.
Wonder how much support there really is.
Frightening to think there would be ANY support, but I'm guessing the cult doesn't stop with these defendants.
 
Frightening to think there would be ANY support, but I'm guessing the cult doesn't stop with these defendants.
I have nothing to base it on, other than maybe wishful thinking, but I really feel like the bulk of the God's Misfits are sitting in jail right now. I think there may be one or two other families that may be key players in the group, but my guess is they are back-pedaling as quickly as they can, to disassociate themselves from the killers. There may be several others that share many of their anti-government beliefs, but I expect they will go crawl back under their rocks until the publicity of all this blows over, which may only be after all of the trials have taken place. JMO
 
I have nothing to base it on, other than maybe wishful thinking, but I really feel like the bulk of the God's Misfits are sitting in jail right now. I think there may be one or two other families that may be key players in the group, but my guess is they are back-pedaling as quickly as they can, to disassociate themselves from the killers. There may be several others that share many of their anti-government beliefs, but I expect they will go crawl back under their rocks until the publicity of all this blows over, which may only be after all of the trials have taken place. JMO
Can area residents convict the defendants especially if residents have anti-government leanings?
 
Good question, but I think they could perhaps be dismissed during voir dire, and never be in the position of gettng to decide.
I think if they identify as sovereign citizens but can convince the court that they can be objective and make their decisions based on the evidence itself and not their sovereign citizen status, they may be permitted to remain on the jury. I don't think it's a crime for anyone to declare themselves a sovereign citizen, so they would be possibly eligible to be selected as a member of the jury - as long as with further questioning at voir dire there isn't something else revealed specific to their status as sovereign citizen.

As long as they are not anti-government extremists, I would think it's possible to be selected as a jurist in this case, even with anti-government leanings.
 
Can area residents convict the defendants especially if residents have anti-government leanings?
I’d say of course they can. Almost all American’s have anti-government leanings, depending on the government program and who is in office, if not to the extent these 5 have. Not many would accept the murder of a young mother and a pastor’s wife, IMO.
 
I’d say of course they can. Almost all American’s have anti-government leanings, depending on the government program and who is in office, if not to the extent these 5 have. Not many would accept the murder of a young mother and a pastor’s wife, IMO.
I agree that not many would accept the murder of a young mother and a pastor's wife, but we know that at least 5 in that very small area did, so I would not completely dismiss the idea that there may be others that would as well, given the same or similar circumstances. And while I think almost every American can find something the government does that we do not believe in, I do not think that makes the average person want to repudiate their citizenship. Do we know that PG was the only misft to share those beliefs?

All it takes is for one person who shares the beliefs of the killers to cause a mistrial, and I am sure the state will do their very best to ensure that no such persons are seated on any jury. JMO
 
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Don't forget Jilian's gun is missing. These five defendants can use whatever defenses they want.

JMO

I think we may see a lot of very questionable defense arguments that try to absolve one or all of guilt and/or place the blame elsewhere. I don't think anything they can come up with will change anyone's opinion given the facts already known, but it's always possible.
 
All it takes is for one person who shares the beliefs of the killers to cause a mistrial, and I am sure the state will do their very best to ensure than no such persons are seated. JMO
RSBM

That's not beyond the realm of possibility. And, maybe they don't even have to be declared sovereign citizens to be anti-government enough to cause a mistrial.

We've had some confessions now, so I'm guessing the defense will work on the idea that the killers believed it had to be done.

We know they didn't trust the government to take care of the two children, and their reasoning (if I have it right) was that the children were at risk of abuse if they went with their mother.

They're going to say (MOO) Yes, we killed the women, but we did it to save the children.

I think they'll take the position that they felt this was a moral crisis, and they had to act. Normal jurors won't buy that, but the anti-government types might. And it's such a sparsly populated rural area that even if they move the trial a couple of counties away, they could run into the same mindset.

All MOO...
 
Denouncing citizenship doesn't mean it, apparently. It takes $2,350 plus turning in a passport and appearing in person. So, Paul Grice, despite his statement, is still a citizen. Guess that gets him a free attorney.
Doubtful a single one of them even has a passport to turn in; those types aren't typically well-traveled.
 
Reading through posts from the weekend, my heart aches.....for VB & JK. I can't imagine the amount of anxiety VB must have felt making the drive to meet TA, knowing the animosity TA had for her. And the fear they both would have felt when they realized that things were going terribly wrong. My heart also aches for ALL of the children involved. So many children left without a mother and these "people" currently sitting in jail couldn't care less. The wait for their trials is going to be painfully long.
 
Frightening to think there would be ANY support, but I'm guessing the cult doesn't stop with these defendants.
Even if the "cult" stops with the 5 arrested plus the Cooks, the idea of the Sovereign Citizen and anti-government sentiment does not. What the Misfits would have to have happen is that people who may approve of the political Sovereign Citizen ideology intellectually and who may enjoy fervent discussions still would have to also approve killing people who disagree with them or who cross them in some way. I doubt the love of a good rousing political debate would necessarily translate into a "not guilty" vote in this heinous crime.
 
Even if the "cult" stops with the 5 arrested plus the Cooks, the idea of the Sovereign Citizen and anti-government sentiment does not. What the Misfits would have to have happen is that people who may approve of the political Sovereign Citizen ideology intellectually and who may enjoy fervent discussions still would have to also approve killing people who disagree with them or who cross them in some way. I doubt the love of a good rousing political debate would necessarily translate into a "not guilty" vote in this heinous crime.
I know a few types like this. Not as extreme, but I can tell you they will never change their minds. You can't reason, can't show them information. If a juror believes the defendants were saving the children, backs what they felt was necessary, there's little hope.
 
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