Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[USARDOG]

Not sure if this has been discussed but someother places are theorizing that KC may have placed the duct tape on Caylee as a way to stop the "O" effect of her mouth and to stop the death moans etc. Not so mucha as to keep the decomp fluids from coming out buit more so to keep her mouth closed and the death rattle from occuring? Anyone?

"Death rattle," is produced by accumulation of fluid in the resp track. Being that Caylee did not have pneumonia, did not drowned, was not shot through the lungs, so likely had no fluid accumulation in her resp track. A death rattle by my way of thinking, not going to be a factor. Vomit could be a factor, but more so if the tape were applied antimortem.

most dying people/animals go through a period of Chain Stokes breathing, this is quite common, in fact, i can't think of only one person i saw die, that i can not remember Chain Stokes, this perhaps because we were doing CPR on him. i would think a very rapid death would cut down on Chain Stokes.

the "O" effect, i've seen a lot of dead people but have yet to see anyone with the "O'' effect. Doubt this would be much of a factor either.

 

[IRule254]

Some of the missing posters stated Caylee's height as 36"- 48" which is just ridiculous, no (almost) 3 year old is 4 feet tall.
I think the weight was a wild guess as well.

That is totally possible, I have a 2 1/2 year old who, right now, weighs 36 pounds and is 38 inches tall, very long and skinny.

 

[magic-cat]

Just found this picture of a sizeable piece of duct tape. Why so many other pieces of duct tape found at the scene? I really think other parts of her body wre taped. I can see discarded rolls of duct tape thrown out there, but not in pieces like this

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set5/1/lg/204391.htm

Hi reeseeva! If you scroll back and forward a pic or two you will see that is not duct tape at all, but is, rather, white material, which could be consistent with a pullup. There is a trash bag that is also identified in the same manner.

I do not put it past Casey to have duct taped Caylee's hands and her feet. She could have removed THAT tape before she placed her in the bags even, but the tape around her head was already well stuck in her HAIR and so could not have been easily removed without ripping out hair also. Plus-I am of the same mind as some others here, that she may actually have taped Caylee's entire face so she would not see it again after she did her foul deed.

 

[AnnaMouse]

"Death rattle," is produced by accumulation of fluid in the resp track.

Thanks. I hadn't realized that.

most dying people/animals go through a period of Chain Stokes breathing, this is quite common, in fact, i can't think of only one person i saw die, that i can not remember Chain Stokes.

OK. I hadn't heard of that so had to google it. It seems the spelling is: Cheyne-Stokes. I hadn't heard the name of it before but witnessed it when my grandmother died. It was hard to watch because after each long pause, you would think it was her last breath and then she'd gasp.

 

[USARDOG]

please excuse my poor spelling, it's been a long day and spell check just isn't up to many med terms. Spell check approved quite happily of my spelling, Chain Stokes! But you are quite correct, it's Cheyne-stokes and yes, it is quite difficult to watch, even once is a lot to see, especially if it's someone you love...

 

[Wisteria]

Thanks guys. You never cease to amaze me with your logic. I agree that it was for strangulation. More now than ever before. Sad to say.....

 

[Marina2]

respectfully snipped:

"Death rattle," is produced by accumulation of fluid in the resp track. Being that Caylee did not have pneumonia, did not drowned, was not shot through the lungs, so likely had no fluid accumulation in her resp track. A death rattle by my way of thinking, not going to be a factor.

A dying person often loses the ability to cough and/or swallow. This allows saliva or mucus to pool in the back of their mouth or throat. The inability to cough or swallow to clear the upper airway of these secretions is the main cause of "death rattle". The conditions noted in your post are not necessary for this to occur.

Even so, I agree with you that a "death rattle" was not the reason KC used the duct tape. I think the position of the mandible under the tape will be a big factor in determining when the tape was placed. Imo, she used it to suffocate her. If I were on the jury, it would be very hard to convince me otherwise.

 

[KenoshaKid]

Thanks. I hadn't realized that.



OK. I hadn't heard of that so had to google it. It seems the spelling is: Cheyne-Stokes. I hadn't heard the name of it before but witnessed it when my grandmother died. It was hard to watch because after each long pause, you would think it was her last breath and then she'd gasp.

Yup. I witnessed it in both my husband and my father. It is most common in comatose patients. (Sorry for the OT)

 

[USARDOG]

A dying person often loses the ability to cough and/or swallow. This allows saliva or mucus to pool in the back of their mouth or throat. The inability to cough or swallow to clear the upper airway of these secretions is the main cause of "death rattle". The conditions noted in your post are not necessary for this to occur.

your post edited for brevity.

yes, read that explanation too, but let it go because i don't consider Caylee a "dying" person, but someone being murdered. i believe by dying, the author was referring to someone going through a long process occurring over hours or even days, and usually in a prone position. i believe Caylee's death was quite quick, and so she had no time to accumulate fluids. That is, suffication by duct tape, with or without the aid of chloroform, I believe would be a quite rapid process compared to a normal death process.

 

[5stars]

I was surprised with report of no description of the duct tape around the skull.how long ,how many pieces and fingerprints found.CA,GA,LA results of fingerprints not found on tape made public , but not Casey.

 

[Marina2]

your post edited for brevity.

yes, read that explanation too, but let it go because i don't consider Caylee a "dying" person, but someone being murdered. i believe by dying, the author was referring to someone going through a long process occurring over hours or even days, and usually in a prone position. i believe Caylee's death was quite quick, and so she had no time to accumulate fluids. That is, suffication by duct tape, with or without the aid of chloroform, I believe would be a quite rapid process compared to a normal death process.

I was the author of those words and was referring to causes of the death rattle from my own experience with dying patients. Just wanted to clarify that those conditions you noted aren't the most common cause of a death rattle and not necessary for it to happen. Caylee could have lay dying and had a death rattle if KC had injured her seriously. It doesn't take long for saliva or mucus to pool in the back of your mouth while lying prone if you can't swallow or cough.

I also believe her death was quick. I don't think KC would take measures to stop a death rattle while murdering her daughter.

 

[USARDOG]

Thank you for clarifying that, this is what i had read... .

"A death rattle is a gurgling or rattle-like noise produced shortly before or after death by the accumulation of excessive respiratory secretions in the throat. Those who are dying may lose their ability to swallow, resulting in such an accumulation. While it is medically established[citation needed] that the death rattle is a strong indication that someone is near death, it can also be produced by other problems that cause interference with the swallowing reflex, for instance, brain injuries."

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_rattle[/ame]


I think you are quite right, imo, kc only care was getting rid of Caylee.

 

[Baznme]

I have standard duct tape here, I measured it, 2 inches wide, if it was wrapped and overlapped it definitely covered her nose when she was alive

I don't know how you could conclude that was when she was alive. I've always thought that maybe........just maybe she placed the tape there to keep the body fluids from leaking after death.

 

[Baznme]

Or leaking decomp fluids possibly from the ears (so awful to think of) which would mean the tape came before decomp/death?

OR

the tape was used to contain the body fluids from leaking after death. That would seem to be the more likely reason for the tape.

 

[USARDOG]

OR

the tape was used to contain the body fluids from leaking after death. That would seem to be the more likely reason for the tape.

Don't know about those posters, but I'm thinking antimortem becasue duct tape does not stick well to wet surfaces, and i think body fluids would be especially difficult to adhere to.

Besides, nose and mouth would be only some of the orfices fluid would be leaking from, and yet this is the only place the tape was found.

 

[Marina2]

OR

the tape was used to contain the body fluids from leaking after death. That would seem to be the more likely reason for the tape.

If KC did this, she was thinking way ahead. It would have to have been placed well before any rigor, swelling, tongue protrusion, maggots, or leakage had occurred. Many times, a person's mouth falls open in death. The subsequent swelling and tongue protrusion would further displace the mandible. The ME said the mandible was in it's approximate anatomical position, only slightly posterior. That tells me the mouth wasn't open when the tape was placed or the ME would have described it as such. If leakage or skin slippage had already occurred, there's no way the tape would have held like it did.

So, this means that right after Caylee died, KC would have to anticipate the need to contain the fluids that may leak. And, she would have to have the knowledge to do this before any of the above occurred, (some of which happens at the moment of death). I can't reasonably believe she had this kind of foresight in the midst of murdering her daughter. Her first thought would be "Where do I hide her body?" Not "I need to tape the mouth to contain the fluids that are going to leak." Has anyone ever heard of a murderer preparing a corpse in this way? I haven't so that would make KC truly a pioneer in my mind. And, she sure made a mess with the fluids for someone who thought this far ahead. Also, with this type of planning, it seems she would have thought of a better place to hide the body and left town quickly. No, I just can't give KC this much credit. She used the tape to suffocate Caylee. Sad but, imo, true.

 

[ecs5298]

If KC did this, she was thinking way ahead. It would have to have been placed well before any rigor, swelling, tongue protrusion, maggots, or leakage had occurred. Many times, a person's mouth falls open in death. The subsequent swelling and tongue protrusion would further displace the mandible. The ME said the mandible was in it's approximate anatomical position, only slightly posterior. That tells me the mouth wasn't open when the tape was placed or the ME would have described it as such. If leakage or skin slippage had already occurred, there's no way the tape would have held like it did.

So, this means that right after Caylee died, KC would have to anticipate the need to contain the fluids that may leak. And, she would have to have the knowledge to do this before any of the above occurred, (some of which happens at the moment of death). I can't reasonably believe she had this kind of foresight in the midst of murdering her daughter. Her first thought would be "Where do I hide her body?" Not "I need to tape the mouth to contain the fluids that are going to leak." Has anyone ever heard of a murderer preparing a corpse in this way? I haven't so that would make KC truly a pioneer in my mind. And, she sure made a mess with the fluids for someone who thought this far ahead. Also, with this type of planning, it seems she would have thought of a better place to hide the body and left town quickly. No, I just can't give KC this much credit. She used the tape to suffocate Caylee. Sad but, imo, true.

This is a very important point that Marina2 has made. As we all know, KC lived her life 10 minutes at a time (seems like one of the only accurate statements that LP has ever made but I digress). Putting tape across her mouth to prevent decomp fluids from leaking is just way to much forethought for KC. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the tape was but on before death and may have actually been the cause of death. Nothing else that KC has done has shown any forethought or planning so why should we believe that she put any thought into this. I can't imagine her following this line of thinking after just killing her daughter.

 

[YellowDog]

I believe the tape was used to try to stop the flow of bodily fluids after death. I don't believe the child was suffocated or strangled.

 

[tweety933]

I wonder if those who believe the duct tape was applied after death to prevent fluid leakage, would believe the same if no decomp was ever found in the trunk of Casey's vehicle?

The logic of this is unreasonable to me, because if I had just found a child whose face was covered in multiple layers of duct tape tight enough to keep the mandible in place, the most reasonable conclusion would be that this child was murdered, and that the duct tape was an instrument used in the process of killing, I wouldn't even ponder, oh maybe it was just an accident and the poor caretaker was scared about leaking decomp somewhere, so decided to plug the holes with duct tape. "Reasonable" doubt, doesn't mean beyond a "Shadow Of" a doubt! I hope the jury knows the difference.

 

[Nore]

If KC did this, she was thinking way ahead. It would have to have been placed well before any rigor, swelling, tongue protrusion, maggots, or leakage had occurred. Many times, a person's mouth falls open in death. The subsequent swelling and tongue protrusion would further displace the mandible. The ME said the mandible was in it's approximate anatomical position, only slightly posterior. That tells me the mouth wasn't open when the tape was placed or the ME would have described it as such. If leakage or skin slippage had already occurred, there's no way the tape would have held like it did.

So, this means that right after Caylee died, KC would have to anticipate the need to contain the fluids that may leak. And, she would have to have the knowledge to do this before any of the above occurred, (some of which happens at the moment of death). I can't reasonably believe she had this kind of foresight in the midst of murdering her daughter. Her first thought would be "Where do I hide her body?" Not "I need to tape the mouth to contain the fluids that are going to leak." Has anyone ever heard of a murderer preparing a corpse in this way? I haven't so that would make KC truly a pioneer in my mind. And, she sure made a mess with the fluids for someone who thought this far ahead. Also, with this type of planning, it seems she would have thought of a better place to hide the body and left town quickly. No, I just can't give KC this much credit. She used the tape to suffocate Caylee. Sad but, imo, true.

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I have been with five people when they passed. None passed any fluid for at least one hour after death.I held my son in my arms for a half hour.I held the hands of my husband and my Grandmom,the only ones to have the mouth drop were my Gram and my brother in law.I think she put it on before death. I pray Caylee had been drugged.I think she placed her in the yard somewhere,then the trunk, at that time she may have seen leakage which would have scared the he$$ out of her.If I made mistakes here I'm sorry.we have a biggy storm coming and I am trying to go fast..There is leakage from the ears and eyes also..Marina I agree with much of your post just trying to add more info. Take care, I'm oouta here...