Update(s) from Shayna (Jaycee's sister)

[flourish]

That is the tragedy of sexual abuse, Dave, innocence is stolen. Trust and tenderness can be regained. Life can become full and rewarding and wonderful. But true innocence is never restored. Once you've been touched by crimes such as these, sadly, nothing is quite seen through innocent eyes ever again.

When my children came to me and asked if they were virgins, I was stunned. I told them, of course they were. A person's virginity is a gift that can only be given. Their body might be hurt or abused but no one can take a person's virginity. Yes, they lost their innocence but they are still pure.

Jaycee and her girls have lost their innocence but they are most definitely pure as the day they were born. JMO

Very beautifully written, with a lovely sentiment :blowkiss: I hope you and your family continue to heal and grow. It sounds like you provide a loving home which will be vital in that journey.

I do not know if I am sad or disgusted that the innocence that was once robbed is still being questioned.

With all respect, and hope that you will respectfully correct me if I am incorrect, here is my interpretation of what you are saying: you interpret the discussion regarding whether or not the wrestling is appropriate as implying that the girls are initiating and engaging in the wrestling in a way to provide some sort of sexual release or something. Like, that we're saying the girls' intentions are less than innocent? Something like that?

If that is what you mean, I think that the discussion is more that we are concerned that PG could have used wrestling as a not-at-all-innocent-on-his-part ritual with the girls, that they thought was normal and/or appropriate. I don't know a ton of 15 year-old girls, but I have many many tween and teen nieces and nephews, none of whom have ever challenged me to wrestle them. I'm not saying that teenage girls don't challenge adults at wrestling often, I'm just saying I've never heard of it. So the concern is whether or not wrestling was an activity which these girls regularly engaged in with the adults in their lives who, besides Jaycee, did not necessarily have innocent intentions. The girls are just doing what is normal for them, and that is truly innocent.

I really hope this makes sense and is reasonable, etc.

 

[Dave AHFB]

I take no offense and also mean no disrespect towards any members here.

What I am saying, if the girls want to wrestle with a family member, who are we to question it. Yes, I understand that simple things like this can be abused by those with an unsavory motive. Many things we do in our everyday lives are abused by these people. We do not question when the Aunt says she loves these girls, yet this too is abused by these sick minds.

 

[Natal]

Sheesh.....they are just doing whats normal for them. Some of you folk seem to be forgetting that they have been raised on what amounts to another planet, what you see as proper decorum is not necessarily what they see as proper decorum. You might be shocked at some of the things they do, and they will allmost certainly be shocked at some of the things you do. It is entirely possible that these girls have absolutely no idea what sex is, and reading subtext into their behaviour is just plain wrong.

You need to try and look at things through others eyes, put yourself in their shoes, not your own.

 

[Missizzy]

Thank you Flourish, you put that eloquently. I don't in any way mean to be disrespectful of Dave. In fact, Dave, I agree with you fully that it is shameful that any of us question the playful wrestling. Heart-breaking, actually.

I've raised 15 children--boys and girls, healthy and special needs. Play wrestling is certainly common among young children, often boys. However, it seems to taper off around puberty. When it occurs between teen boys, there's almost always a dominating factor involved. But we don't need to go there.

The fact is that when you are a survivor of childhood sexual abuse or a parent of a survivor, seemingly playful acts take on a new dimension. I would have never thought a thing was amiss with young children wrestling until my children were raped and it came out at trial that the rapist had play-wrestled with them. The rapist was an older teen and my children ranged in age from about 6-12. Developmentally, they were all much younger due to special needs.

Suddenly, wrestling was no longer innocent to me. The same goes for tickling or for a teen or an adult holding a child older than an infant on their lap. Even a certain way of wrapping an arm around a child's shoulders to guide them when walking became sinister. Am I jaded? Yes. But I am guilty of not seeing abuse while it was happening right under my nose. That changes the way I see some things.

Might these actions be totally innocent? Of course. Could these actions be possibly misguided and worthy of closer watch? You bet!! I learned the hard way. Flourish makes a fine point in stating that the girls are doing what seems "normal" to them. I am not judging the little girls in any way. I am also not judging Shayna as she seems like a fabulous and loving Aunt and sister. I am just saying that, to some of us (and we know who we are), this is just one more awful reminder of what these children have endured.

With loads of therapy and a loving family, they can be taught to play in a healthy way. They can learn to trust and feel safe. I've seen miracles happen with healing but it's a long and arduous path.

 

[songline]

Sheesh.....they are just doing whats normal for them. Some of you folk seem to be forgetting that they have been raised on what amounts to another planet, what you see as proper decorum is not necessarily what they see as proper decorum. You might be shocked at some of the things they do, and they will allmost certainly be shocked at some of the things you do. It is entirely possible that these girls have absolutely no idea what sex is, and reading subtext into their behaviour is just plain wrong.
You need to try and look at things through others eyes, put yourself in their shoes, not your own.

I hope you are right.
but while they MAY not know the word sex or abuse
(and I hope I am wrong and that he never touched them - unlikly)
it is also possible
that they are brain washed and know the word work. Those parties in the back yard
were not sex, as they may know it, just work.
I hope I am wrong, I just wonder what that report from the neighbor about men
drinking and laughing and going into a tent while high 5 each other, means.

 

[mysteriew]

Am I the only one who's a little bit weirded out by this? Fake "play" wrestling is one tactic used by molesters to get close to children. I wonder if Garrido "wrestled" with the girls. This is not to say anything against Jaycee or her daughters. They can't help it if this is all they know about behavior.

I think this blog needs to be taken down, and fast.

I think we have to keep this in perspective. Some molesters use candy to lure kids. Should we then deny them candy? Some molesters use puppies and kittens as a lure. Should the child then be denied contact to kittens and puppies? Molesters take things that kids enjoy or find common and use them to lure them. But that doesn't always mean that the object or activity should be denied the child afterward.... if they still enjoy it.

Kids wrestle. It is a way of getting physical contact without getting mushy or being sexual (to a kid.) Yes a parent still has to supervise to make sure it is being done in fun and not in aggression or retaliation or that one child or another is not becoming angry. But it is good excercise and a good release for tension sometimes. I am glad these kids can still wrestle if that is something they enjoy. If the aunt has the energy for it, if it is being done in fun, if the kids enjoy it then there is no reason to deny it.

Yes, if wrestling is used as a means of aggression or domination, a parent would have to rethink the issue. If one of the children is not enjoying it or if it frightens the child, of course you wouldn't want to do it. If it is leaving the children angry, then yeah that is a means of play you would want to stop.

Cases where a molester had used wrestling as a part of the molestation is a different case of course. That would bring up a whole other case of issues.

 

[Dave AHFB]

Thank you for making common sense part of the equation

 

[Missizzy]

Dave, I certainly do not want to offend you nor do I choose to allow myself to be offended by you. I have a personal interest in this case and hope that I have offered helpful suggestions in a positive and respectful manner at all times.

I agree that these little girls cannot and should not be made to feel guilty for the way they play with their newly discovered Aunt. I just opined and agreed with others that this sort of play CAN be indicative of past abuse and lack of parental guidance. I have no doubt that the therapists and the children's grandmother can and will redirect any inappropriate play.

I know that this information is disturbing but children who have been victims will often act out sexually against other children until they are taught that this is not acceptable. Often times, this is the way their own abuse is discovered. Our children did this and nothing upset me more. I learned to be firm but loving in my redirection. It's interesting to note that foster/adoptive training for parenting abused children absolutely forbids all wrestling.

I agree with Mysteriew that we don't know these little girls' level of development.

Dave, I choose to follow this thread and hope I won't be a hindrance to you following it also.

 

[mysteriew]

We do need to be careful that our fears for the children aren't projecting more on the children than what really happened. At this point there are no charges involving the children, no evidence that the children were molested. And even Jaycee has indicated that the girls were not abused. So why project that they must have been abused, over their denials?

Their situation was bad enough the way it was. Brought up living in a backyard. No formal schooling. No medical care. Unsure of their family lines. Do we really need to question if they were abused? I would say yes they were abused and neglected. But I don't see any evidence yet that they were sexually abused.

 

[Missizzy]

Let's just pray that they weren't. In this particular case, anything is possible.

 

[Missizzy]

To get back to the original purpose of this thread, I think we can all celebrate the fact that Shayna is connecting with her nieces and planning some sort of wonderful tribute to them. How wonderful is that?

 

[txsvicki]

Am I the only one who's a little bit weirded out by this? Fake "play" wrestling is one tactic used by molesters to get close to children. I wonder if Garrido "wrestled" with the girls. This is not to say anything against Jaycee or her daughters. They can't help it if this is all they know about behavior.

I think this blog needs to be taken down, and fast.

I was weirded out about the play wrestling and the aunt being challenged since they are still so new to each other and what they have all been through. The first thought was RG teaching wrestling. I'm suprised that a therapist or attorneys would really approve of such a blog when even play could be acting out emotional issues.

 

[songline]

LOL LinasK it depends on the kid. Some kids really enjoy it, see it as a contest or game. Other kids don't like it. For teenage girls, it may be unusual. But I wouldn't call it abnormal. They are two kids who lived together and played together, and did not play with anyone else. They may have seen wrestling on TV, this may have been a carryover from childhood. Don't forget, with the limited contact these girls have had to interact with other people they would have developed their own childhood games. We also don't know what the level of maturity these girls are. The isolation they lived in could have slowed their social/emotional development.

REALLY WELL SAID :clap::clap::clap::clap:
I was a Tom boy and I loved play wrestling well into my 20's LOL
Not everything is a problem.

 

[jjenny]

I was weirded out about the play wrestling and the aunt being challenged.

The aunt is not that much older than the girls. She was very young when Jaycee was kidnapped, so by my estimation she is probably around five years older than the 15 year old Starlite.

 

[redfish]

Ummmm.... I haven't posted in quite awhile, But I haven't missed a post here! This thread brought me out of the closet!!!

Cali: Thank you for this thread. I am one of the ones that really hopes the it is a long time before Jaycee and her girls are forced into the public "eye". Not that I am not as curious as everyone else, just that I want them to experience the outside world without stares for as long as possible. But I sure wonder how its going for them. Thanks for giving us this glimpse. And I hope we can get these little glimpses from time to time without crossing those lines!

Dave: You spoke up before I could!! I was also disappointed with the immediate negative response here. And surprised.

I grew up in a big family. I have quite a few birth children of my own(thank the lord, they never had abuse issues) and several steps... some with special abuse issues. In my family that kind of interaction was a healthy thing. My brothers and I wrestled all the time. To this day when one of my brothers (in his 40's) sees me I know he is going to "come after" me! Its his way of showing me affection, that rough housing is easier for him than lots of hugging. My kids and their kids all play this way. We hug too.

We all know that some sick people abuse any and all kinds of touching. Sometimes "abused" kids can't tolerate touching of any kind, just for this reason. WE ARE NOT SICK People!!! WE know they are out there and we are vigilant. But geez, let's try not to only see through our tainted eyes and see only the bad, and the bad in everything. JMO

 

[LinasK]

Dave, I certainly do not want to offend you nor do I choose to allow myself to be offended by you. I have a personal interest in this case and hope that I have offered helpful suggestions in a positive and respectful manner at all times.

I agree that these little girls cannot and should not be made to feel guilty for the way they play with their newly discovered Aunt. I just opined and agreed with others that this sort of play CAN be indicative of past abuse and lack of parental guidance. I have no doubt that the therapists and the children's grandmother can and will redirect any inappropriate play.

I know that this information is disturbing but children who have been victims will often act out sexually against other children until they are taught that this is not acceptable. Often times, this is the way their own abuse is discovered. Our children did this and nothing upset me more. I learned to be firm but loving in my redirection. It's interesting to note that foster/adoptive training for parenting abused children absolutely forbids all wrestling.

I agree with Mysteriew that we don't know these little girls' level of development.

Dave, I choose to follow this thread and hope I won't be a hindrance to you following it also.

This was such a good post, I thought it bore repeating!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Dave AHFB]

Ummmm.... I haven't posted in quite awhile, But I haven't missed a post here! This thread brought me out of the closet!!!

Welcome back

Dave: You spoke up before I could!! I was also disappointed with the immediate negative response here. And surprised.

Very sad indeed, Speaking for myself, I cannot continue to make victims of these poor girls by placing judgement on their current actions.

 

[thatswhatshesaid]

Cali, I'm very glad you posted this and are keeping us updated on Shayna's MS posts. Thank you.

I stand by my original--though not elaborated on post--that the comment about wrestling made me uneasy because as it was touched on in other posts predators can sometimes use it as a lure--like any other good, wholesome thing. (Ala the candy analogy). The uneasiness on my part ONLY had to do with a momentary thought of PG. There were no negative judgments or victimizations I associated directly with Jaycee's daughter *today*.

The majority of my reaction was joy in knowing that the 15 yr old and her aunt are getting to know each other and Shayna is so happy. Of course that is wonderful.

WSers have such diverse opinions and can see so many facets of situations, I'm not sure why there seems to be a perceived idea on this thread that one can't have a red flag moment AND be happy about the update at the same time. It is possible.

So nice to see the respect and give/take for all our opinions on this thread.

 

[MBK]

As I was the first person on this thread who mentioned the bit about the wrestling making me uneasy, and absolutely stand behind what I said 100%. I, too, am not judging the girls. My statement is hardly off-the-cuff.

 

[songline]

IMHO:
Innocence is still just innocence and 3 girls wrestling is not harmful. It is still 3 young girls.
there was not a man in the mix to alert any body's hinky meter. JMHO

However: having said that, If you or someone you love had been a victim in the past which included this innocent play, I can see your antennas going up.

Fortunately I enjoyed this wrestling game myself into my early 20s and I cant see anything at all here that would
even give me the slightest twinge.
HAY CALI got anymore good news???