Update(s) from Shayna (Jaycee's sister)

[songline]

Welcome back



Very sad indeed, Speaking for myself, I cannot continue to make victims of these poor girls by placing judgement on their current actions.

DAVE:
I can see that you still want to see the good.
I agree with you.

Unfortunately some people here have had some experiences that changed their filter 4 ever.

 

[TCheedle]

As I was the first person on this thread who mentioned the bit about the wrestling making me uneasy, and absolutely stand behind what I said 100%. I, too, am not judging the girls. My statement is hardly off-the-cuff.

I've read that wrestling can be a sign of abuse but thought it was in a situation where the suspected abuser:

• Insists on hugging, touching, kissing, tickling, wrestling with or holding a child even when the child does not want this affection.

From Warning Signs of Child Sexual Abuse

 

[Missizzy]

Please google this phrase, "identifiying child molesters carla van dam wrestling tickling" and a chapter from the book, "Identifying Child Molesters" will come up. You can read the chapter on wrestling, tickling, and lap-sitting. However, I couldn't cut and paste.

I am in NO way suggesting that anything at all is amiss with Shayna and her nieces engaging in play. NO WAY!! I am merely suggesting that this type of play can be overly stimulating and triggering for children affected in some way by sexual abuse. I would think that even Jaycee might feel uncomfortable with seeing her daughters play this way. This is strictly my opinion and I am not asking anyone to agree. I respect your right to your opinion.

I fully admit that I have different filters as my children were raped by a man who used this technique. I also grew up an only child so I have no history of playful wrestling of my own. I also had the awful experience of watching my freshly abused children acting out by play-wrestling and tickling each other with strong sexual overtones. It was absolutely creepy.

I respect those who see this activity as completely harmless. I just wanted to try and explain why this comment set off a red flag for me.

For those who have children, this is a great chapter to read as much can be learned about the offender's MO. It is so remarkably clandestine!! I can attest to that.

 

[Bathbuddys]

wow I was so overjoyed to read this account from the girls aunt and then reading the rest of the posts got me depressed?

I raised two sons alone and was young when I had my first one (19 years old mom)
their dad was 18 and we were consistently down on the floor either wrestling, playing floor games and outside also.
My boys were constantly rolling around the house.
They do this with their children now. I was a tomboy and very active and was constantly guilty of playing baseball, football etc with the boys until they got big enough to where it would hurt (lol)
I was always watching adults around my boys but didnt know that it was sexual abuse to play with my children?

I am so sorry that people get mistreated by adults but when I think of Jaycee and or her children, I remember that she was ONLY 11 years old when she was kidnapped and living with two very sick individuals and probably didnt think anything of playing with them or "wrestling" to be a bad thing?
Yes of course she is an adult now by age but I am sure she has not got the instruction of how to raise children or maybe she never had any show her that "playing" wasnt done when you are a mother at 14 years old.

I guess this will be the last I post on this thread as people can be so rough on these VICTIMS to the point of judging their every breath....

I was glad to hear that they were smiling and laughing and I am sure the family would like to tell a lot more but the aunt is soooo generous to share some good things happening to these girls....
God Bless them

 

[Missizzy]

Bathbuddys--Of course it isn't sexual abuse to play with your children. Not at all. That's one of the greatest joys of being a family. You are a very fortunate woman to have such a loving, playful, and safe family. Those of us parenting survivors don't get that luxury of simple and innocent play, however.

I'm tremendously pleased that Shayna and her nieces are connecting. This thread, sadly, turned to a discussion of the "possible" red flags of past abuse. I think we can be pleased but cautious at the same time. I don't think anyone is judging these little girls. Some of us are all just very concerned with their safety.

I still hope everyone concentrates on the positives here. Shayna has her big sister and two nieces to play with and love. That's the miracle IMO.

 

[flourish]

Very sad indeed, Speaking for myself, I cannot continue to make victims of these poor girls by placing judgement on their current actions.

Dave,
I'm confused as to why you feel our concerns about the wrestling is placing judgment on the girls. No one here has stated or implied that the girls are doing anything wrong. The concerns are more in regards to how the activity of wrestling may or may not have been originally introduced to the girls.

Considering the girls' pasts, it is not unreasonable to consider that their upbringing may have included activities which were not engaged in with a spirit of innocent playfulness by all parties involved. Again, the girls have not done anything wrong, either by wrestling in the first place, nor by challenging their aunt to wrestle. Their aunt did nothing wrong, either.

Many people here have an educational, personal, and/or vocational history of working with children who have been abused. While the specifics of abuse perpetrated upon these girls, and the level of such abuse, is unknown to us, the fact is these girls have been abused and neglected simply by the nature of their situation. To play therapists, and other folks familiar with social work, child development, and similar fields, wrestling brings up a possible yellow-flag. Identifying and reacting to a yellow flag doesn't mean you assume something inappropriate is happening, just that you recognize that there may or may not be an issue that may or may not need to be addressed in the future.

It is less a matter of being a sick, twisted person who only sees things from a sick, twisted perspective; it's more a matter of recognizing behaviors which may involve more than meets the eye. I hope that you can withhold your own judgment of those of us whose education and/or training influences our perspectives.

 

[xin]

Shayna has also been busily working on some kind of website. These are her posts about this project:







She hasn't revealed or even given any hints about it other than the request to take pictures of pink bows you come across, but she seems very excited about it. :cloud9:

If you'd like (because a lot of people don't do MySpace), I'll continue to post her updates here (with her permission).

To be honest, I prefer direct experience and wonder about the "need" for a conduit to what is basically public information. Academically speaking, without a source (as in URL), all information is suspect, including another poster's. No offense intended, but how can information really be considered and examined without a direct source? It means: hearsay? need to be an insider? I know something you don't know? All suspicous to this reader. However, it is true that most of us can locate the material but why the hoops? I do not need to be *protected* by anybody here, especially with regard to information found on the Web. Over 21. Degreed. Licenses. Experience trial watcher and crime follower. All that.

I figure intentions are good, but I cannot ignore my formal and informal education. We all want the same thing: truth and justice. IMHO..something to think about. I've thought of this as an atomosphere of sharing and access, and now...I dunno.

 

[xin]

Welcome back



Very sad indeed, Speaking for myself, I cannot continue to make victims of these poor girls by placing judgement on their current actions.

Actually, Dave, we know next to little (or nothing) about anybody's current actions. This MySpace stuff is nonsense until it is sourced. Very skeptical about content and methodology. I think these girls are now safe. Anyone with sensitivity and training toward those who have suffered abuse KNOWS that touching is pretty much out of the picture, and as a key subject...I don't buy this wrestling thing. I don't see law enforcement or responsible adults or family-members focusing and posting about these sorts of activities.

I DO think (strategically) that little pieces of hopeful and "forward-looking" information will begin to emerge. At some point, Jaycee and her daughters will begin the process of re-integrating socially. It will not start with little stories about wrestling. More like what we have heard from more credible sources...the abuse had subsided, her girls were not molested (as far as anybody knows). I believe that Jaycee will talk to us at some point. (A general-public "us").

 

[JDB]

Bathbuddys--Of course it isn't sexual abuse to play with your children. Not at all. That's one of the greatest joys of being a family. You are a very fortunate woman to have such a loving, playful, and safe family. Those of us parenting survivors don't get that luxury of simple and innocent play, however.

I'm tremendously pleased that Shayna and her nieces are connecting. This thread, sadly, turned to a discussion of the "possible" red flags of past abuse. I think we can be pleased but cautious at the same time. I don't think anyone is judging these little girls. Some of us are all just very concerned with their safety.

I still hope everyone concentrates on the positives here. Shayna has her big sister and two nieces to play with and love. That's the miracle IMO.

You know call me a old Foggie. But I see nothing wrong with the people wrasslin with each other. Heck whan I waas younger I used to wrestle with my yonger sisters and brother dailiy. aand then My neicese and nephews use to call it dog pile on JDB

 

[OneLostGrl]

Innocence goes well beyond ones virginity, it also extends to the simple playful acts between family. Again, I do not know if I am sad or disgusted that a few minutes of playtime is being brought into question.

Amen!

 

[Californian]

To be honest, I prefer direct experience and wonder about the "need" for a conduit to what is basically public information. Academically speaking, without a source (as in URL), all information is suspect, including another poster's. No offense intended, but how can information really be considered and examined without a direct source? It means: hearsay? need to be an insider? I know something you don't know? All suspicous to this reader. However, it is true that most of us can locate the material but why the hoops? I do not need to be *protected* by anybody here, especially with regard to information found on the Web. Over 21. Degreed. Licenses. Experience trial watcher and crime follower. All that.

I figure intentions are good, but I cannot ignore my formal and informal education. We all want the same thing: truth and justice. IMHO..something to think about. I've thought of this as an atomosphere of sharing and access, and now...I dunno.

1. As I said before, not everyone uses MySpace. Since her page was set to private, I thought fellow WS'ers might not want to have to go through the process of registering at the site, requesting Shayna add them as a friend, etc, etc, etc. I've been signed up on MS for a couple years and still find it confusing, so I thought this thread would be helpful to those who don't want to deal with signing up there.

2. Information might be "suspect" if it was being posted by someone new or unknown to this forum. If one is familiar with my posting history, one wouldn't need to question my intentions. Please feel free to examine my posting history to ease your suspicions.

3. By all means, you can go directly to the source yourself. I have no interest in protecting you from anything. As I said early on, if I am protecting anyone, it is Shayna, from being inundated by intrusive messages that are undoubtedly sent to her through her MS.

4. The url to the page is posted on this forum. I chose not to include it in this thread per reasons stated in #3 and in an earlier post in this thread. I hope you can understand that. That said, all one has to do is search or ask for it, no hoops required.

 

[Californian]

IMHO:
Innocence is still just innocence and 3 girls wrestling is not harmful. It is still 3 young girls.
there was not a man in the mix to alert any body's hinky meter. JMHO

However: having said that, If you or someone you love had been a victim in the past which included this innocent play, I can see your antennas going up.

Fortunately I enjoyed this wrestling game myself into my early 20s and I cant see anything at all here that would
even give me the slightest twinge.
HAY CALI got anymore good news???

Hey Songline! She hasn't posted anything new yet. I will share when she does, both to say "Hey, Shayna posted a new update if you want to go to her page to read it with your own eyes!" and to post it here for everyone else who trusts that I copy and paste it here in it's original form.

 

[flourish]

wow I was so overjoyed to read this account from the girls aunt and then reading the rest of the posts got me depressed?

I raised two sons alone and was young when I had my first one (19 years old mom)
their dad was 18 and we were consistently down on the floor either wrestling, playing floor games and outside also.
My boys were constantly rolling around the house.
They do this with their children now. I was a tomboy and very active and was constantly guilty of playing baseball, football etc with the boys until they got big enough to where it would hurt (lol)
I was always watching adults around my boys but didnt know that it was sexual abuse to play with my children?

I am so sorry that people get mistreated by adults but when I think of Jaycee and or her children, I remember that she was ONLY 11 years old when she was kidnapped and living with two very sick individuals and probably didnt think anything of playing with them or "wrestling" to be a bad thing?
Yes of course she is an adult now by age but I am sure she has not got the instruction of how to raise children or maybe she never had any show her that "playing" wasnt done when you are a mother at 14 years old.

I guess this will be the last I post on this thread as people can be so rough on these VICTIMS to the point of judging their every breath....

I was glad to hear that they were smiling and laughing and I am sure the family would like to tell a lot more but the aunt is soooo generous to share some good things happening to these girls....
God Bless them

respectfully bolded by me

Again, I must stress that no one is saying the girls have done anything wrong. We are concerned about their well-being. The indications that anyone here is anything but concerned for their well-being are getting pretty old.

 

[Dave AHFB]

Again, I must stress that no one is saying the girls have done anything wrong.

I almost trusted this to be fact until I started reading from page 1 again .

 

[txsvicki]

The girls didn't grow up in a big happy playful normal family. They reportedly had to sleep with their old dad every night and thought their mother was their sister. They never went to school or to a doctor or dentist. They never even went to Sunday School like most kids or played on any sports team. Even their play will be looked at by therapists and they won't be judging. I believe PG is the bad guy along with his wife and they are to be judged. I'd bet it wasn't all sunshine and lollipops.

 

[cleo612]

Very beautifully written, with a lovely sentiment :blowkiss: I hope you and your family continue to heal and grow. It sounds like you provide a loving home which will be vital in that journey.



With all respect, and hope that you will respectfully correct me if I am incorrect, here is my interpretation of what you are saying: you interpret the discussion regarding whether or not the wrestling is appropriate as implying that the girls are initiating and engaging in the wrestling in a way to provide some sort of sexual release or something. Like, that we're saying the girls' intentions are less than innocent? Something like that?

If that is what you mean, I think that the discussion is more that we are concerned that PG could have used wrestling as a not-at-all-innocent-on-his-part ritual with the girls, that they thought was normal and/or appropriate. I don't know a ton of 15 year-old girls, but I have many many tween and teen nieces and nephews, none of whom have ever challenged me to wrestle them. I'm not saying that teenage girls don't challenge adults at wrestling often, I'm just saying I've never heard of it. So the concern is whether or not wrestling was an activity which these girls regularly engaged in with the adults in their lives who, besides Jaycee, did not necessarily have innocent intentions. The girls are just doing what is normal for them, and that is truly innocent.

I really hope this makes sense and is reasonable, etc.

Bolded by me...

I can understand (to a degree) the concerns about playful wrestling. I was subjected to this type of grooming when I was only 6 years old by an uncle who was 7 years my senior.

That being said, it must be noted that Shayna is only 19 years old--she is very close in age to both of these girls--and I can only see this as playful bonding time between the three of these young girls.

I don't see anything ugly, disconcerting, scary, or abnormal about this play wrestling AT ALL.

In fact, I bet it brought about lots of laughter and hugs in the end.

 

[Bathbuddys]

Dave,
I'm confused as to why you feel our concerns about the wrestling is placing judgment on the girls. No one here has stated or implied that the girls are doing anything wrong. The concerns are more in regards to how the activity of wrestling may or may not have been originally introduced to the girls.

Considering the girls' pasts, it is not unreasonable to consider that their upbringing may have included activities which were not engaged in with a spirit of innocent playfulness by all parties involved. Again, the girls have not done anything wrong, either by wrestling in the first place, nor by challenging their aunt to wrestle. Their aunt did nothing wrong, either.

Many people here have an educational, personal, and/or vocational history of working with children who have been abused. While the specifics of abuse perpetrated upon these girls, and the level of such abuse, is unknown to us, the fact is these girls have been abused and neglected simply by the nature of their situation. To play therapists, and other folks familiar with social work, child development, and similar fields, wrestling brings up a possible yellow-flag. Identifying and reacting to a yellow flag doesn't mean you assume something inappropriate is happening, just that you recognize that there may or may not be an issue that may or may not need to be addressed in the future.

It is less a matter of being a sick, twisted person who only sees things from a sick, twisted perspective; it's more a matter of recognizing behaviors which may involve more than meets the eye. I hope that you can withhold your own judgment of those of us whose education and/or training influences our perspectives.

I would love to comment again but dont want a time out!...lol

 

[mysteriew]

Dave,
I'm confused as to why you feel our concerns about the wrestling is placing judgment on the girls. No one here has stated or implied that the girls are doing anything wrong. The concerns are more in regards to how the activity of wrestling may or may not have been originally introduced to the girls.

Considering the girls' pasts, it is not unreasonable to consider that their upbringing may have included activities which were not engaged in with a spirit of innocent playfulness by all parties involved. Again, the girls have not done anything wrong, either by wrestling in the first place, nor by challenging their aunt to wrestle. Their aunt did nothing wrong, either.

Many people here have an educational, personal, and/or vocational history of working with children who have been abused. While the specifics of abuse perpetrated upon these girls, and the level of such abuse, is unknown to us, the fact is these girls have been abused and neglected simply by the nature of their situation. To play therapists, and other folks familiar with social work, child development, and similar fields, wrestling brings up a possible yellow-flag. Identifying and reacting to a yellow flag doesn't mean you assume something inappropriate is happening, just that you recognize that there may or may not be an issue that may or may not need to be addressed in the future.

It is less a matter of being a sick, twisted person who only sees things from a sick, twisted perspective; it's more a matter of recognizing behaviors which may involve more than meets the eye. I hope that you can withhold your own judgment of those of us whose education and/or training influences our perspectives.

Very interesting post. Perhaps you could answer a question for me?

What would be the effect on a child if you insisted they were victims of sexual abuse, despite the lack of any evidence to support the fact that they were victims? Could this cause them any emotion distress or even harm? What about when their mother publicly denies any sexual abuse and LE doesn't file any charges of sexual abuse, yet the public continues to see the child as a sexual abuse victim. Could that be potentially harmful or distressful to the child?

 

[gitana1]

REALLY WELL SAID :clap::clap::clap::clap:
I was a Tom boy and I loved play wrestling well into my 20's LOL
Not everything is a problem.

Oh my gosh, me too!!! I have seen on Websleuths a few times that when we come across a monster or monstrous situation, we tend to suspect everything and disbelieve that things are not always black or white. There can be good in the midst of an evil situation. These kids may be more normal than we think. They likely had good times. Maybe we should be applauding Jaycee for doing such a great job at giving them the best she could and trying to make things normal for them.
I am sad that these kids can't even play with their aunt without people finding something sinister in it. It was indicative of joy and bonding to me. I am not alarmed by this. Gosh, we don't even know that they were molested to begin with.
Perhaps I would think differently if they were trying to wrestle around with an adult male, or if they were boys always wanting to wrestle with younger cousins or something. What I see are two girls having a great time with the aunt they just met. That's all. And it does my heart good!

 

[flourish]

Very interesting post. Perhaps you could answer a question for me?

What would be the effect on a child if you insisted they were victims of sexual abuse, despite the lack of any evidence to support the fact that they were victims? Could this cause them any emotion distress or even harm? What about when their mother publicly denies any sexual abuse and LE doesn't file any charges of sexual abuse, yet the public continues to see the child as a sexual abuse victim. Could that be potentially harmful or distressful to the child?

I'm not exactly sure what it was that I said that makes you feel like this question is relevant to what I was talking about. :waitasec: I have not stated, nor "insisted" that the girls are victims of sexual abuse. I said they are victims of abuse and neglect, which they are.

Certainly what you are describing could be potentially harmful or distressful to the hypothetical child you describe in your question.