NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

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Sorry to go off topic, but something about Mary Stuart reminds me of this UI found in California in 2006. Her info doesn't match up exactly but the expressions and face are so similar, it's almost haunting.

http://doenetwork.org/cases/593ufca.html

I ran across that UID profile a couple of weeks ago, and spent about a half hour searching for Mary Stuart's profile (although I couldn't remember her name at the time). I was sure that I had a match, but it turned out to be an obvious no match because of the time-frame.

The expression struck me the same way.
 
<rearranged to keep the discussion together>

Mary Stuart and daughters Jessie and Fannie
View attachment 6851
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/stuart_mary.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/stuart_jessie.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/stuart_fannie.html

The Stuart case seems to be a pretty good possible except for the geography (California) and the time-frame (8 years prior) if you accept the premise that the fourth victim is unrelated.

LE always mentions California as a possible place for the victims to have come from. I don't think the time frame is a problem, either. Jessie and Fannie would be 9 and 8, within the age ranges for the two older children. Could easily have had another child in the intervening years. So yeah, this looks good.

Elaine Yates and daughters Kelly and Kimberly
View attachment 6852
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/y/yates_kelly.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/y/yates_kimberly.html

Earlier on this thread (over a year ago), Sleuthster mentioned the Yates case, and was going to call it in, but then thought better of it because of discrepancies in height and age for Elaine. I have found no indication that it was ever called in.

Given that the height estimate for the adult female UID is from 5'2" to 5'7" (a pretty wide range for a complete skeleton), and the estimated age range is not that far below Elaine's age.

Elaine Yates was 47; the upper range on the UID is early 30's -- quite a difference, but probably not prohibitive. The resemblance is pretty strong otherwise. The dates are also iffy -- Yates disappeared 26 August 1985; the skeletons were found 10 November 1985. Not enough time for the state of the remains.

I'd say the Stuarts are definitely a possibility. I assume since Yates is a New England case, it was already checked, but probably worth submitting both of them anyway.
 
Elaine Yates was 47 ...

For some reason, I had it in my head that she was 37. You're right. That is a little too much above the age range, especially considering that there are other discrepancies as well.
 
I was looking for possible matches for Simone Ridinger, a missing person from my area, and checked out this Tennessee UID: https://identifyus.org/cases/1576

She does look a bit like Ridinger, but I was even more struck by how much she looks like the Allenstown women. She was dumped off I-81 about 5-6 months before the Allentown UIDs were found.

No, I don't know why the forum is displaying one pic as a thumbnail and the others as attachments...
 

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Hi, I was on the Doe Network yesterday and viewed the site updates section pertaining to the disappearences of Julie Anne Guthrie, age 6, and Timothy Patrick Guthrie, age 3, from Katonah, Westchester County, New York on February 6, 1977. They were last seen with their mother. However, it did not say if she were missing or not, or what were the circumstances surrounding their disappearances. It did not give her name either. I tried to find out that information, but could not find it upon an internet search.

I believe that their ages match up to these unidentified people. I believe that their pictures look strikingly similiar. I just don't know if their mother is missing, too. I know that the 4 to 8 year old is listed as being female, but is it not often hard to tell the definite sex of younger remains without DNA testing? I think that it is a rather an androgenous period of development during those particular childhood years. I am no forensic expert. The similarities in the pictures is what spooked me. I vaguely remember googling the case a few weeks ago, and believe that at one point, they initially believed that child to be a male. I wont attach the links, but you can look up their cases (those of Julie Anne Guthrie and Timothy Patrick Guthrie) on The Doe Network and The Charley Project, as well as on the national website for missing and exploited children in the United States. I think the older 5 to 10 year old child looks similar to Julie Anne Guthrie as well.

What do you guys think?
 

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Are these unidentified still on the Doe network?
 
No, they were taken down for some reason--sorry, I knew that--I should have only said on the Charley Project website, but they still have not been identified. I'm sorry that I didn't post the link earlier. The case is posted on http://www.doj.nh.gov/coldcaseunit/listing/allenstown.htm It is the official site for some of the cold cases and missing persons in New Hampshire from the State Government.
 
Hi, I am posting this article located in the Concord Monitor (New Hampshire Newspaper). It is perhaps the most detailed article that I have found thus far. It is dated March 27, 2009. I found it on another website. I went to the Concord Monitor and discovered that there is a fee for an archived article ($2.50), so I am posting the full article here for everyone to read. As I find more articles that are not archived, Ill try to post the links. But, since this one was archived, I am posting the full article. I do not know when the information was last updated on NAMUS because the site is down right now. I did email the pictures and a message to the Cold Case Unit in New Hampshire, and I received a very nice reply from one of the investigating officers, which stated that they would look into the information which I provided. It was nice because it was not an automated reply. Whether it was correct or not, I feel better knowing that they will look into it. I know that they know alot more about it than we do, but making suggestions never hurts anyone...it makes the pool of potential victims smaller. Hopefully, one day these people will be identified. I believe the information on whom to contact with information on the case is outdated. Please go to the link that I provided above and click on tip form.

The archived article is as follows:

Names of murdered lost over decades - Police hope to identify bodies left in barrels
Concord Monitor (NH) - Friday, March 27, 2009
Author: KAREN LANGLEY ; Monitor staff

At least 25 years have passed since a woman and three children were murdered, stuffed into barrels and left near Bear Brook State Park.

The remains of the woman and one child were found spilling from a barrel in 1985. Fifteen years later, a state trooper revisiting the dormant case found the other remains in a barrel about 100 yards away. The four have never been identified.

There are other unsolved murders in New Hampshire, an average of about two per year, but these four victims are the only unidentified ones known to the chief of the attorney general's homicide unit. The void of information about their lives has crippled hopes of explaining their deaths.

"Here the resources are going into identifying the victims," said Jeff Strelzin, senior assistant attorney general and homicide unit chief. "Normally in a homicide crime the resources are going to solving the crime. Getting to who killed them without knowing who they are is next to impossible."

Now authorities hope advances in forensic technology could help to identify the remains left in the Allenstown woods.

A new technique for analyzing hair could yield clues about where the victims lived before their deaths. Analysts at a Utah lab are studying the woman's hair for isotopes peculiar to the drinking water of different regions. Investigators believe narrowing the search would increase the chance of finding someone who had contact with the victims.

Tracing evidence to a particular location has helped investigators before. In 2004, after Concord resident Manuel Gehring told the police he had forgotten where he buried his son and daughter after killing them, tests of pollen found with his shovel led to the discovery of the bodies in Ohio.

State investigators are also awaiting nuclear DNA tests being performed by the FBI. These tests would provide individual DNA profiles that could be used to find family members listed in federal databases.

If the victims are identified, investigators will at last be able to ask the questions that are usually the first steps in solving a murder. When they do, they will be looking for a killer who committed a personal, violent crime, said Detective John Sonia of the State Police Major Crime Unit.

The woman and the child found with her were killed by blunt force trauma to their heads, Sonia said. The medical examiner did not determine how the pair of children died, he said, but ruled they had been murdered.

"This case was particularly heinous and brutal," he said. "It either shows some kind of relationship between the perpetrator and victims that's so close and personal where they were bludgeoned and put in barrels."

But people who murder their entire families more often use methods like poisoning or shooting, he said. Crimes of intense violence are typically committed against a single victim, he said.

"On the other hand, a serial perpetrator, a serial stalker with multiple victims, as we believe they're from one time. . . . That gives a different profile, a psychotic profile," he said.

Strelzin said he could not comment on whether the victims had been bludgeoned.

For now, little information has been drawn from the remains. Forensic analysts have determined that the woman was between 23 and 32 years old. She had curly, light-brown hair and, like the children, was either white or Native American. She was about 5-foot-5.

The child found with her was a girl between 5 and 10 years old. The girl stood about 4-foot-3 and had light-brown hair and ears pierced twice.

The second pair of bodies were those of two children who appear to be younger. Investigators believe they are female, but the children were too young to know for sure.

"You can't get sex from skeletal morphology when they're that young," said Kim Fallon, a forensic investigator at the state medical examiner's office. "They have traits that suggest they're female, but that's not definite."

One of those children was between 4 and 8 years old and stood about 3-foot-8. She had light-brown hair and a noticeable overbite. The other child was between 1 and 3 years old. She stood about 2-foot-5 and had long, blond hair.

The initial DNA tests showed that the woman could be the mother of the child found with her and of the youngest child. Investigators said she is not the mother of the child who was between 4 and 8 years old.

The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has produced images from the bone structure of the woman and the two children who might be hers.

The case was reactivated a few years ago when Fallon learned about the four victims at a conference about missing persons and unidentified remains.

"I couldn't believe when I heard about this case," she said. "That it's four of them from probably one event and three of them are children."

Quadruple homicides are rare. In 1991, Concord resident James Colbert strangled his wife and three young daughters. The 1997 shooting rampage of Carl Drega killed two state troopers, a part-time judge and a newspaper editor in northern Colebrook.

There are different theories about how four people could have disappeared as long as 30 years ago without ever being identified. The woman could have been a teenager who left home and had children without her family knowing, Fallon said. Or she and the children could be from the West Coast and brought here by a long-haul trucker, Strelzin said.

Investigators ask that anyone with information contact Detective John Sonia or Lt. James White of the State Police Major Crime Unit at 271-2663.
 
CarlK, thanks for submitting the Stuart family as a potential match. I sent the same match to NH State Police in June 2009 but haven't heard back from them and I strongly feel this potential match should be looked into!

Porchlight thread:
http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=45325

As I was researching these unidentified remains on the internet, I discovered something about the state of New Hampshire, too. It was very interesting to learn that the current Governor, Jon Lynch, around Late May and June 2009 signed into law for the formation of the New Hampshire State Cold Case Unit. This unit consists of 4 officers assigned to investigate all of the cold cases of missing persons and unidentified remains in New Hampshire. I think that is awesome. Perhaps, there was something administrative, as to why there was no response when you submitted your suggestion.
 
CarlK, thanks for submitting the Stuart family as a potential match. I sent the same match to NH State Police in June 2009 but haven't heard back from them and I strongly feel this potential match should be looked into!

Porchlight thread:
http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=45325

I'm surprised you didn't get an answer. I got an immediate and very nice answer to the tip I submitted on this case; my experience with the NH police is that they're always nice even when they're telling you "no" or writing a speeding ticket.
 
Hi, I was on the Doe Network yesterday and viewed the site updates section pertaining to the disappearences of Julie Anne Guthrie, age 6, and Timothy Patrick Guthrie, age 3, from Katonah, Westchester County, New York on February 6, 1977. They were last seen with their mother. However, it did not say if she were missing or not, or what were the circumstances surrounding their disappearances. It did not give her name either. I tried to find out that information, but could not find it upon an internet search.

I believe that their ages match up to these unidentified people. I believe that their pictures look strikingly similiar. I just don't know if their mother is missing, too. I know that the 4 to 8 year old is listed as being female, but is it not often hard to tell the definite sex of younger remains without DNA testing? I think that it is a rather an androgenous period of development during those particular childhood years. I am no forensic expert. The similarities in the pictures is what spooked me. I vaguely remember googling the case a few weeks ago, and believe that at one point, they initially believed that child to be a male. I wont attach the links, but you can look up their cases (those of Julie Anne Guthrie and Timothy Patrick Guthrie) on The Doe Network and The Charley Project, as well as on the national website for missing and exploited children in the United States. I think the older 5 to 10 year old child looks similar to Julie Anne Guthrie as well.

What do you guys think?

I think those look very possible.

I have read in several places that the sex of the two youngest children is subject to some doubt -- especially the baby, but also the second youngest.

A bit upthread there's a link to a TV spot from last March where they discuss the new testing that's being done. Haven't seen results from that yet.
 
[...]
The remains of the woman and one child were found spilling from a barrel in 1985. Fifteen years later, a state trooper revisiting the dormant case found the other remains in a barrel about 100 yards away. [...]

It took 15 years to find the second barrel, 100 yards away?
 
It took 15 years to find the second barrel, 100 yards away?

Well, no, not really -- just nobody noticed what was *in* the barrel.

In the 1970's and 1980's, southern NH off route 3 and I-93 was a dumping ground for toxic waste from MA-NY-PA. Most often the barrels contain the remains of caustic dyes used in the leather industry, or electroplating chemicals, or stuff like that. Most places you walk, you'll see at least one or two rusting barrels buried in leaves and fallen branches. People leave them alone; you don't want electroplating chemicals in your face.

The same is true of many areas that were mostly rural at that time. There's a similar barrel down the hill in the woods behind my house. It has been reported to authorities and registered on the toxic waste accounting, but I doubt anybody has ever actually looked in it to make sure it's not full of bones.

This article (posted upthread also) includes a video that shows the area and some of the barrels still scattered there: http://www.wmur.com/news/19013578/detail.html
 
Well, no, not really -- just nobody noticed what was *in* the barrel.

In the 1970's and 1980's, southern NH off the route 3 and I-93 was a dumping ground for toxic waste from MA-NY-PA. Most often they contain the remains of caustic dyes used in the leather industry, or electroplating chemicals, or stuff like that. Most places you walk, you'll see at least one or two rusting barrels buried in leaves and fallen branches. People leave them alone; you don't want electroplating chemicals in your face.

The same is true of many areas that were mostly rural at that time. There's a similar barrel down the hill in the woods behind my house. It has been reported to authorities and registered on the toxic waste accounting, but I doubt anybody has ever actually looked in it to make sure it's not full of bones.


This article (posted upthread also) includes a video that shows the area and some of the barrels still scattered there: http://www.wmur.com/news/19013578/detail.html

Thanks for sharing this. This kinda makes sense now as to why the killer disposed of the bodies where he did. At first, I was not so sure that this was very thoughtfully planned action. It makes me look at this crime in a new light now. That is so interesting to know. Thank you!
 
NH+Family+Mom+and+three+kids.jpg


You can call us Sandra, Molly, Bet and Mary if you want. The names are in order by our age from the eldest to the youngest. But those are not our names. We have been dubbed with Temporary Doe Names.


I&#8217;m Sandra, I&#8217;m 23 or 32 or somewhere in between. I was a mom. I was a woman. I was alive. Then I was found dead. Three children were also found dead. This is our story.


In November 1985, my remains along with that of a child approximately eight to ten years old were found stuffed inside of a 55 gallon metal drum. Disposed of like toxic waste. The drum was located at Bear Brook Garden Trailer Park near 22 Edgewood Drive in Allentown, New Hampshire. While the homicide report online shows the cause of death as withheld, the media reports that both of us were killed by blunt force trauma. It&#8217;s also been noted by several sources that our deaths were brutal and viscous. The child that was found with me was most likely my child. I was killed with my child and disposed in a trailer park sometime between 1977 and 1985.


The above seems horrid and unbelievable, but it gets worse. In May 2000, another metal drum was discovered only but a mere 100 yards away. This drum contained two children. Both children had been murdered. One of these two children the youngest, one to three years of age is also believed to be my child. From testing the third child age four to eight years old cannot be confirmed as being related. Two more children, whether my blood or not, most definitely I cared for them, I loved them and I feared for them! They were found 15 years after they discovered me. They had only been 100 yards away. My child. My agony. My pain.

Here is what little information there is that might help you:


SANDRA DOE&#8211; 23 to 32 years old, given birth, stood about 5&#8217;2 to 5&#8217;7, and had curly light brown hair approximately four inches long


MOLLY DOE &#8211; 5 to 10 years old, approximately 4'3 tall, had double-pierced ears, and had dark blonde or light brown hair


BET DOE &#8211; 4 to 8 years old, approximately 3'8 tall and had a noticeable overbite


MARY DOE &#8211; 1 to 3 years old child was approximately 2'5 tall and had fine blonde hair, approximately 8 to 12 inches in length


We were all White or Native American.


Can you help me and my children? Can you help pass around the forensic images that might help identify us? Will you ask everyone you know to pass around our images and our story? Someone out there must know who we are. Someone out there must be missing us. Please help us find our way home. My children deserve headstones with their given names.







If you have any information contact:


New Hampshire State Med Exams Ofc

603-271-1235


New Hampshire Cold Case Unit
603-271-2663 or 603-271-1255


Case Number: NCMU1100629



http://canyouidentifyme.blogspot.com/search/label/Unidentified Child
 
How about

Grace M. Canto Reapp
Missing since June 6, 1978 from Jericho, Chittenden County, Vermont
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/325dfvt.html

and her daughter
Grace Noel Reapp
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/326dfvt.html

They could fit this case if instead of killing his wife the abusive husband had locked her up in a basement somewhere with their daughter, and kept getting her pregnant. Then when he found another woman he felt suited him better and wanted to move states, he killed his imprisoned family members to get them out the way.
 
reasypeasy, that theory is plausible - but I just don't see how the possibly unrelated child would fit into that...unless he 'found' a friend for his basement children.
 
reasypeasy, that theory is plausible - but I just don't see how the possibly unrelated child would fit into that...unless he 'found' a friend for his basement children.

I took the "possibly unrelated" to mean that they just couldn't extract a decently complete and uncontaminated reading on the mitochondrial dna from that individual... so also possibly related?
 
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